Microsoft's answer to the iPod
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he_is_the_one
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:10 am    Post subject:

I thought this thread was about Microsoft's new mp3 player not a war of which operating system is better, etc
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rracer99
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:00 pm    Post subject:

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rracer99
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:10 pm    Post subject:

I never attempt to explain the "scope of an OS" arguement because there is too much to cover and often it is not appreciated.

What you outlined scratches the surface. People tend to not consider everything, for example all the SDK's, interfaces etc.

All these things have to be developed, supported, upgraded, backward compatibility maintained. The technology footprint Microsoft covers is simply massive compared to what Apple has to deal with (their OS).


Star wrote:
Car54 wrote:
Apple is so far ahead it not even funny


This statement is so wrong it isn't even funny. I'm a big Linux fan and I think the Mac OS is great but you greatly underestimate just what it takes to make an OS.

Windows OS has a HUGE advantage in that it works with just about every hardware configuration and with literally 1000's of different programs from 1000's of companies.

Apple's OS works on a very limited set of hardware on a very limited set of software. You have no idea how hard it is to make a core piece of software like an OS work in such a heterogenous environment. In fact, most of the problems that people face with their PC's have nothing to do with the Window's OS but in fact with 3rd party Software and hardware drivers. Of course, when something goes wrong, they blame what they want, which is normally the OS.

Mac has a LONG way before they can support all these different hardware and software platforms. If they ever go down that road, they are going to learn how painful it really is when you can't control all the hardware and software choices that consumers really want.


Last edited by rracer99 on Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:27 pm    Post subject:

It will be very interesting to see PS3's first year. I expect Sony to loose significant market share this generation (if not give up the majority position).

HD is a complete mess right now (1080i w/ HDMI vs 720P, overall HD content). The consumer it very confused. It is generally accepted Blueray inclusion was a mistake at this stage. Sony was compelled because they are fighting a big battled vs HD DVD on another front, and felt it was necessary to show un-waivering support for their own standard with PS3 (I understand the logic).

But the facts are, HD adoption is not where they hoped it would be at this point. Blueray contributed to the PS3 being late, and the cost of the system will shrink Sony's market big time. Between the price and bad PR, Sony somehow managed to turn themselves from "perfect game company" to "simply doesn't get it" with public opinion after E3.

The PS3 should do very well in Japan, but their overall numbers outside are looking very shaky. The North American and European markets are considered more important these days. In the early going they may sell-out their limited quantities, but the long term numbers will very likely givie up large chunks of share to Microsoft.

da ocho wrote:

As for ps3... Its a more powerful machine and has the 360 and it has next gen dvd player built in. So obviously I expect it to be better. Not to mention the slew of problems microsoft has already had with its unit. The only thing 360 has on ps3 is price. Ps3 has more desirable features. Imo blu-ray will succeed due to the fact that it will be in ps3s.
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Car54
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 5:48 pm    Post subject:

Star wrote:
Car54 wrote:
Star wrote:
Car54 wrote:
Star wrote:
Car54 wrote:
Apple is so far ahead it not even funny


This statement is so wrong it isn't even funny. I'm a big Linux fan and I think the Mac OS is great but you greatly underestimate just what it takes to make an OS.

Windows OS has a HUGE advantage in that it works with just about every hardware configuration and with literally 1000's of different programs from 1000's of companies.


Thats the problem MS OS doesnt really work with these other programs. Allowing software to ruin on a PC and an OS working with a 3rd party software are two different things. Sure you can run multimedia apps on a windows machine but on a Mac you have total integration with the softwares available. BTW Mac pretty much comes with all the software u need so there isnt really a need for third parties.


You are just missing the point. Consumers get great value from having so many choices in software and hardware. This is the main reason MS DOMINATES Apple. Choice and cost. If apple ever wanted to really compete with MS they would have to be cheaper and work with more software and hardware. IF the decided to do that, then and only then might people appreciate the technology that MS really puts into its products.

To say that Apple is way ahead of MS is just plain wrong. MS is solving a very different problem than Apple.


Wrong Apple is a Computer and software company MS is software. Consumers don't buy PC because of software choices they buy it because you can buy a PC 199.00 and the cheapest Mac is 499.00. Pc Apple has the same choices in software as PC so stop the nonsense. Like i said if you want software that works Apple is the way to go. Vista is trying to catch up to tiger and Apple has another OS waiting in the wings so explain how their not ahead of MS?


Really, you should stop because you keep missing the point. In fact, you are making it for me. You say

Quote:
they buy it because you can buy a PC 199.00 and the cheapest Mac is 499.00.


Why do you think a PC is cheaper? It's BECAUSE Microsoft supports so many hardware choices. This means that hardware vendors have to compete against each other. Competition brings down prices.

Mac just can't compete in this area. They don't support so many hardware choices. THAT IS THE PROBLEM. If Apple decided to compete with MS here, and support all these hardware and software platforms, then you would understand how truely hard it is to make software that works on a billion different computers, each with a different configuration. This is where Apple is behind.

And your assertion that people have the same software choices on apple as they do on Windows is just absurd. Talk to any gamer.


Apple OS doesn't work on PC platforms not because its so hard to make it for PC platforms, but they have no intention of licensing to other platforms. Your crazy Idea that windows is a better OS because of software made for is crazy. An apple computer can do anything a PC does straight out the box with out adding any software. You obviously have no idea about the differences the pros and cons etc.. of both platforms. I switched to mac over 7 years ago and haven't felt the need for a pc since.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 7:31 pm    Post subject:

Looks like another ipod wanna be,

Zune

Has some cool feautures, but not the advancements i thought, made of plastic apparantely, which screams cheap, especially if its in the ipod price range. Uses Buttons, no touch screen..nice, but from what ive seen, doesnt look like any stiff competition too apple.

*But if their is one thing, ill say, microsoft wont be a one and done, take alook at the xbox and xbox 360, they will learn and make adjustments im sure.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 7:52 pm    Post subject:

Car54 wrote:
An apple computer can do anything a PC does straight out the box with out adding any software. You obviously have no idea about the differences the pros and cons etc.. of both platforms.


Really?

So your Mac comes preloaded with Skype, so I can make free phone calls, right out of the box?

How about myJal, so I can upload all my ringtones, wallpapers, games/apps to my Motorola phone?

How about Guild Wars, in case I'm in the mood for a little gaming action? Can you even play Guild Wars on a Mac?

Bittorrent? Never know when I might want to download some TV shows I might have missed.

All that stuff is preloaded on the Mac? I wouldn't have the need to load or purchase any of it?

Man... what have I been thinking all these years?
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TACH
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 6:01 am    Post subject:

Quote:
Why do you think a PC is cheaper? It's BECAUSE Microsoft supports so many hardware choices. This means that hardware vendors have to compete against each other. Competition brings down prices.

Mac just can't compete in this area. They don't support so many hardware choices. THAT IS THE PROBLEM. If Apple decided to compete with MS here, and support all these hardware and software platforms, then you would understand how truely hard it is to make software that works on a billion different computers, each with a different configuration. This is where Apple is behind.


Apple to oragnes (no pun intended). Microsoft is a software company, where as Apple is hardware company that makes software for it's hardware (not supporting other 'hardware' is done so by design). Also, Microsoft doesn't make software for a billion different computers... a billion different computers are configured to run Microsoft software. Huge difference.
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Star
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 9:13 am    Post subject:

TACH wrote:
Quote:
Why do you think a PC is cheaper? It's BECAUSE Microsoft supports so many hardware choices. This means that hardware vendors have to compete against each other. Competition brings down prices.

Mac just can't compete in this area. They don't support so many hardware choices. THAT IS THE PROBLEM. If Apple decided to compete with MS here, and support all these hardware and software platforms, then you would understand how truely hard it is to make software that works on a billion different computers, each with a different configuration. This is where Apple is behind.


Apple to oragnes (no pun intended). Microsoft is a software company, where as Apple is hardware company that makes software for it's hardware (not supporting other 'hardware' is done so by design). Also, Microsoft doesn't make software for a billion different computers... a billion different computers are configured to run Microsoft software. Huge difference.


Seriously, you are all missing the point. And I would really stop trying to give me a lesson on the software industry. How many of you trying to give me a lesson actually have code that runs in any of these OSs? Not code that runs on the platform, but code that runs in the OS? I have worked on both the Linux and MS OS so I think I know a little something more about the complexities of writing OS software.

Yes, Apple by design does not support other hardware. But to think that you all of a sudden could take the Apple OS and just run flawlessly on my Dell/HP/Gateway/Alienware, with my Nvidia/ATI/Pine/ASUS graphics card along with my Creative/Intel/Turtle Beach/Ingram you just don't know what you are talking about. Creating an OS when you can control precisely the hardware it is working on is a much easier challenge. Apple can focus on creating great user interface (which I agree is superior to MS) because they don't have to devote energy to supporting the vast combinations that MS does.

And don't pretend you know the work MS has to do to support these other vendors. To say that the other vendors support MS and that MS has to do nothing to get all of the hardware vendors to work on the OS is just laughable. I guess the literally 1000's of people they hire strictly for hardware and software compatibility just sit around all day. When there is a Blue Screen of Death caused by a 3rd party driver, who do you think gets blamed and whose reputation gets hurt?
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TACH
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 9:38 am    Post subject:

Quote:
But to think that you all of a sudden could take the Apple OS and just run flawlessly on my Dell/HP/Gateway/Alienware, with my Nvidia/ATI/Pine/ASUS graphics card along with my Creative/Intel/Turtle Beach/Ingram you just don't know what you are talking about.


Never said that or think it.... A matter of fact, this is what I posted in a similar thread:

Tach wrote:
Lakersfield wrote:
Billy_Blanko wrote:
If I could install OS X on my PC, my life would be much better.


In theory you shoud right? It runs on a Intel processor.
Nope... at least not yet.

You can install Win XP (and Vista) on a MAC, but not the other way around.


I was responding to your claim that MS "make software that works on a billion different computers, each with a different configuration". MS has a Compatiblity Team that comes up with 'standards' for use of their OS. And yes, MS works with thousands of vendors to establish those 'standards'.... but they do not test their OS on 'billions' of differently configured computers.

Quote:

And don't pretend you know the work MS has to do to support these other vendors. To say that the other vendors support MS and that MS has to do nothing to get all of the hardware vendors to work on the OS is just laughable. I guess the literally 1000's of people they hire strictly for hardware and software compatibility just sit around all day. When there is a Blue Screen of Death caused by a 3rd party driver, who do you think gets blamed and whose reputation gets hurt?


You don't know me,.. so don't 'pretend' to...


Last edited by TACH on Fri Sep 01, 2006 10:31 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 4:36 pm    Post subject:

This is all a pretty moot arguement because standalone MP3 players are going the way of the PDA anyhow. Flash memory and microdrives are making cellphones a much more convenient and likely place to store a persons portable music collection. The rest of it will stay on the primary computer hard drive. If a person needs to have access to their entire collection on the go can you say Slingbox for data? That device is coming as well.

So where does that leave Apple and MS fanboys? Well Apple has a leg up on music distribution and MS has a lead on OS's for "smartphones", so I guess they'll all get (bleep) with each other on those fronts after 30 and 40 GB flash media is cheap enough to sell on a memory stick. Don't think that's on it's way? 2GB's is currently only about $50bux, and the first 16GB USB flash drives will hit the market in December. Memory cards of the same size won't be too far behind.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 10:30 am    Post subject:

Nice article about the Zune Vs iPod Wars that are about to begin:

Microsoft, Apple prepare for digital music battle:
Quote:
While Microsoft hasn't come out and announced exactly when Zune is coming or exactly what it will do, it's given enough clues that it's strategy can be easily deduced.
Think "Xbox Live," but with music and videos.


Quote:
Make no mistake, vision is what it took to build a handheld player and online music store that together have turned the music industry on its head, and once again made Apple a force to be reckoned with.

Yes, Diamond Multimedia's Rio beat the iPod to market, and Napster came first, but putting those two together and making it easy -- and legal -- to download and play a billion songs, as iTunes users have, took brilliance.
What's more, spending hundreds of millions on iPod R&D earlier this decade when Wall Street was screaming for computer hardware makers to cut costs in the face of falling sales took determination.

I can't think of another CEO in Silicon Valley who could have gotten away with that bet, not to mention make it pay off. And who but Jobs could have convinced executives at the major music labels to license the digital rights to their songs for terms that have done nothing to reverse the industry's sliding sales even as Apple has sold 50 million iPods.


Quote:
But even if we stick with the Microsoft-Apple story line, several developments suggest that this movie will play out differently.

In building its own hardware, Microsoft is trying something that wasn't part of its corporate DNA when Gates was conquering the PC industry.

The beauty of Gates' strategy, to license Windows to hardware makers rather than compete with them as Apple did, was that it allowed Microsoft to dominate the PC industry without ever having to build a single machine.
It turns out that the margins in software were just a little higher and the PC business grew so big that no one company could build all those machines itself.

Now, with Zune, the company has decided to compete against the makers of MP3 players that have been using its software. In truth, Zune will be evolutionary rather than revolutionary, since it will actually be built by Toshiba, which now makes a Microsoft-based player.

The Zune product will have a wireless Internet link to enable users to download music anywhere, rather than be tethered to a PC. That's a good thing for Microsoft, because a venture capitalist at a prominent Silicon Valley firm told me this week that Apple has sent reference designs for a new wireless iPod to some potential component suppliers.


Last edited by TACH on Fri Sep 01, 2006 11:11 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 10:40 am    Post subject:

can it have a radio built in? FM and AM...thats what my ipod lacks..
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 11:13 am    Post subject:

Laker_Town wrote:
can it have a radio built in? FM and AM...thats what my ipod lacks..
I want Wi-Fi or at least bluetooth... if that occured, my iPod would rarly leave my car... LOL.... Maybe I should upgrade and install a Mac Mini is the old truck...
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