2015-16 X's and O's Discussion
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 9:39 am    Post subject:

We should try to run sideline PnR's when we're pushing the ball in transition off of a miss, like the Spurs do. It'll put pressure on the defense immediately, and if nothing comes out of it, we can set up a play from there.
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fiendishoc
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2016 1:10 am    Post subject:



Note the correlation between offensive and defensive efficiency.
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tox
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2016 11:51 pm    Post subject:

From an X's and O's standpoint, has anything changed recently? The team has looked betterish for the past couple games, hanging tight with SAS and IND even without a particularly good performance from Kobe.

Or is it mostly just improvement on the part of the youngsters? Or hell, is it just another transient thing, like teams missing shots + Kobe hot (well in the MIN/ NOP games)?
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 12:12 am    Post subject:

tox wrote:
From an X's and O's standpoint, has anything changed recently? The team has looked betterish for the past couple games, hanging tight with SAS and IND even without a particularly good performance from Kobe.

Or is it mostly just improvement on the part of the youngsters? Or hell, is it just another transient thing, like teams missing shots + Kobe hot (well in the MIN/ NOP games)?


I thought we played legitimately well on the defensive end tonight, rather than it just being a matter of Indiana missing shots. We switched big/small less on screens, but other than that, I don't think there was much different about tonight's game from an X's & O's standpoint.

On the offensive end, it's mainly been the shot-making. Brent or Jon Barry (whoever it was) was commenting on how difficult the looks that we were getting were in the Pelicans game, we were just hitting them. Similar story in the Minnesota game. I think we've been running Elbow a little more, and Floppy a little less, but all in all it's the same stuff we've been doing all year. And tonight's game was God-awful offensively.
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fiendishoc
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 1:28 am    Post subject:

Offensively against Spurs and New Orleans? Not really. They added some interesting screening wrinkles to their usual triangle sets against New Orleans, but it didn't amount to much.

Against Indiana was different. They took a half step forward into modernity, running the offense through Randle at the top of the key. They ran 'Delay' action a couple times with Randle looking for perimeter players off of pindowns instead of the Princeton, which saved them a lot of shot clock time. This is something that I had been advocating. Also they ran a variation of motion weak for a couple of possessions. This may have been due to Hibbert's absence, which pushed Randle to the top of the key. But possibly Byron could be starting to relax his iron grip on the offense as this lost season winds down.

I think it helped their flow offensively, although the results weren't there when Russell wasn't on the court. One of the issues is that Randle hasn't been in this role before and he and his teammates need time to get used to it, which resulted in a lot of turnovers. They should have started running these things starting from preseason.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 1:30 am    Post subject:

Clarkson, d'lo, and randle are made to run motion weak.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 1:19 am    Post subject:

ValisJason wrote:
fiendishoc wrote:
Insightful Q&A with Sam Mitchell of the Wolves. Not Lakers related but very good inside stuff about NBA coaching and player development.

https://www.minnpost.com/sports/2016/01/qa-sam-mitchell-weighs-zach-lavine-andrew-wiggins-and-wolves-season-so-far


Thanks for posting that link. So much good stuff there. It may just be me or it may be the format of the interview, but the way Mitchell talked about offensive adjustments and defensive schemes sounds so much better than Byron. And yet, Mitchell is not thought of as a very good modern coach.

Also, while Mitchell is very critical of certain players in that interview, you don't get the sense that you do with Byron that its all about "old-school" effort and manning up.

Really increases the sense that Byron is probably by far the worst coach in the league, and that the Lakers will be in the stone age until they fire him.


A bit late on my part, but here is part II:

https://www.minnpost.com/sports/2016/01/sam-mitchell-qa-part-two-kg-bazzy-and-why-kat-t-wolves-best-shooter

A lot of good stuff here. Too much for me to quote.
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tox
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 2:26 am    Post subject:

Oops, I didn't look at your guys' comments (@fiendish, @GT). Really appreciate the answers.

I had better get acquainted with Motion Weak if they're starting to run it.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 2:27 am    Post subject:

tox wrote:
Oops, I didn't look at your guys' comments (@fiendish, @GT). Really appreciate the answers.

I had better get acquainted with Motion Weak if they're starting to run it.


Unfortunately I haven't seen them running it outside of that game and summer league.
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tox
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 2:39 am    Post subject:

fiendishoc wrote:
tox wrote:
Oops, I didn't look at your guys' comments (@fiendish, @GT). Really appreciate the answers.

I had better get acquainted with Motion Weak if they're starting to run it.


Unfortunately I haven't seen them running it outside of that game and summer league.


They've played one game since, right? I'll keep my fingers crossed anyways
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 7:35 am    Post subject:

tox wrote:
fiendishoc wrote:
tox wrote:
Oops, I didn't look at your guys' comments (@fiendish, @GT). Really appreciate the answers.

I had better get acquainted with Motion Weak if they're starting to run it.


Unfortunately I haven't seen them running it outside of that game and summer league.


They've played one game since, right? I'll keep my fingers crossed anyways


They ran it on the first possession of the game against the Spurs, flowing into Horns, and then didn't run it again. Maybe not a confidence builder to try a new set against the team that invented it and could run it better than you with their eyes closed. Also, motion weak doesn't flow into Horns as smoothly as motion strong, with where the players are set up after the initial action.

Still, there were more ball reversals and offensive continuity during the possession than we've seen from the team all season.

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tox
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 2:11 am    Post subject:

fiendishoc wrote:
tox wrote:
fiendishoc wrote:
tox wrote:
Oops, I didn't look at your guys' comments (@fiendish, @GT). Really appreciate the answers.

I had better get acquainted with Motion Weak if they're starting to run it.


Unfortunately I haven't seen them running it outside of that game and summer league.


They've played one game since, right? I'll keep my fingers crossed anyways


They ran it on the first possession of the game against the Spurs, flowing into Horns, and then didn't run it again. Maybe not a confidence builder to try a new set against the team that invented it and could run it better than you with their eyes closed. Also, motion weak doesn't flow into Horns as smoothly as motion strong, with where the players are set up after the initial action.

Still, there were more ball reversals and offensive continuity during the possession than we've seen from the team all season.

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/2-20-2016/71mKxI.gif


The end result was ugly, but that did look much better in terms of overall ball and man movement.

Really appreciate all your posts!
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2016 8:42 am    Post subject:

So did anyone notice changes in the offense?
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2016 8:47 am    Post subject:

Practice wrote:
So did anyone notice changes in the offense?


Yes, they ran their motion weak set (from the Spurs motion offense) over and over again in the first quarter. Wasn't too smooth because they didn't seem to have installed any of the counters and the tempo was off, but I guess it's a mini step in the right direction.

Later, I'll break down what they did and what it should look like if it's done right.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2016 9:19 am    Post subject:

I'm not holding my breath on the counters. We don't use them on sets we've been running for 2 years now.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2016 9:46 am    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
I'm not holding my breath on the counters. We don't use them on sets we've been running for 2 years now.


Yeah, the concepts of what make motion weak work are defined decisions and continuity, and that isn't spiritually different from princeton or triangle principles, while the type of set is different. But Byron runs things as set plays, so I suspect they will run motion weak as a defined one direction play as well.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2016 12:03 pm    Post subject:

Positive Residual ‏@presidual 2m2 minutes ago
The Lakers made 300 passes last night - their 6th highest total this year. They average 277 (3rd lowest in the NBA).
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2016 12:12 pm    Post subject:

fiendishoc wrote:
Practice wrote:
So did anyone notice changes in the offense?


Yes, they ran their motion weak set (from the Spurs motion offense) over and over again in the first quarter. Wasn't too smooth because they didn't seem to have installed any of the counters and the tempo was off, but I guess it's a mini step in the right direction.

Later, I'll break down what they did and what it should look like if it's done right.


Russell had his hands full all game long. They ran it every quarter he was in there and, yep, the tempo was off and guys were a mess on that cross screen and screen the screener sequence. Watching Randle get upset when it wasn't run, then later breaking it off a number of times himself said it all, I think. Poor Russell. Clarkson was frustrated with how things unfolded for him at times, too. And I don't envy whoever has to deal with both Lou and Swaggy. Frankly, Nick should be benched with how he played on that end last night.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2016 12:18 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
Positive Residual ‏@presidual 2m2 minutes ago
The Lakers made 300 passes last night - their 6th highest total this year. They average 277 (3rd lowest in the NBA).


It's a step in the right direction. I'm not going to get mad about their D when they are so focussed on trying to implement the motion weak and have all kinds of issues on that end. They shouldn't be as bad in transition, but you can see where their heads where last night and what players were talking about at dead balls.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2016 8:47 am    Post subject:

I'll go into Motion Weak as run by the Lakers in a bit more detail. We first saw them run it in Summer League, and then I didn't notice it again until the Feb 8 game against Indiana and then later in the first play of the game against the Spurs. Against Memphis is the first time they really tried to run it as an offense rather than a single set. We have now finally joined the other 29 teams in the league in incorporating Spurs motion.

First, let me explain the terminology. In the Spurs motion offense, the two most prevalent actions are Strong and Weak, both of which have been copied across the league. In both, the point guard brings the ball up the floor along a side and a big trails behind near the middle of the floor.

If there is no wing ahead, the PG dribbles to the strong side wing and then simply reverses to big man, who swings to the weak side wing- this is Strong. The Lakers have not run this yet, to my knowledge.

Alternatively if there is a wing ahead, the PG passes to the strong side wing who then reverses it to the trailing big. The PG cuts to the weak side wing for the return pass so they call it Weak:



That cut to the weak side can either be deep (as the Lakers run it), crossing paths with the other wing, or shallow (as more commonly run and as shown in the diagram). After the ball gets back to the PG on the weak side, then the other wing player will go into a screen the screener action under the basket to free up the low big for a post up and then come up off the down screen near the top of the key. If the ball gets to the guy coming off the down screen, teams do different things, such as immediately run a pick and roll with the down screener or go into a Horns set. Sometimes the low man will pop out to run a side PnR with the PG. So far it seems the Lakers will tend to run just what you see in the diagrams, but with a deeper cut for the PG.

Going beyond just the clipboard, several details need to be executed for the play to actually work consistently. It's not surprising that the Lakers execution and results with the set was significantly worse than that of the Grizzlies' (who were running the same action back at them), given that the Lakers have only been running it 5 on 0 in practice.

Play 1: http://on.nba.com/1LmjxFL

Russell cuts to the weak side after his pass to Clarkson on the wing. If you're going to have the PG cut that deep, then the opposite wing Brown should have made more of an attempt to throw a flare screen at his defender Conley, to make him change his route. Otherwise it's too easy for Conley to get into denial position for the return pass on the weak side, which pushes Russell further away from the basket and burns some time off the clock.

Tempo is an important but often overlooked component of motion offenses like this and the triangle. If you get the entire team on the same rhythm, then actions will more easily flow together and the integrity of the spacing is less likely to be compromised. Brown also should have waited until Russell made the catch before setting his cross screen. Instead he goes to set it immediately rather than first giving Russell the flare screen. When he pops up off the down screen (which Randle barely even bothered to set), Russell is still moving back to position for the post feed. It ends up turning into just a simple post iso for Hibbert.

Here are last year's Warriors doing it right, against Conley and Grizzlies:
https://youtu.be/8yeaVXfNXNk?t=91

A counter for the overplay by Conley is a backcut by Russell, but he doesn't even hint at attempting it, which means that it may not be part of the Lakers' version yet.

Warriors against Grizzlies again:
https://youtu.be/8yeaVXfNXNk?t=190

Play 2: The Lakers again don't screen for the Russell on the weakside cut and then Conley easily intercepts Randle's pass while denying and takes it coast to coast:
http://on.nba.com/1oHsPBL

Play 3: Here is Clarkson taking the PG role in the set- he gets a ball screen from the trailing big Hibbert (usually teams run it with the low big), which leads to some awkward spacing, but Hibbert manages to score on a post up anyway:
http://on.nba.com/1Lmk4HF

Play 4: Still in the 1st quarter, the Lakers run it with Clarkson playing the 1 role. Brown finally sets a screen on the weak side, but it's a halfhearted one and Conley gets through it without a problem. Wary of another turnover, Randle chooses to go back to Russell on the strong side. They iso despite two teammates crowding the paint (and awkwardly trying to get out of it). Russell hits the tough floater anyway:
http://on.nba.com/1Lmks8W

Here are two plays in a row with the Warriors going to that strong side option, but with a proper secondary action, with Klay coming off either a single or a double staggered pindown. Note that Brown wouldn't have been in the position to do that because they have him rush into the cross screen without letting the play develop.
https://youtu.be/8yeaVXfNXNk?t=197

So while the Lakers are finally running a modern set with ball reversals and quicker developing actions, it's going to take a while for them to be effective with it. This is why teams usually don't make a dramatic change to their offense mid season. They didn't run it all that much after the first quarter. But if Clarkson was hitting the shots he normally hits and Randle wasn't so careless with his passes they likely would have done alright in offensive efficiency- which shows the kind of offensive talent we have on the team. Hopefully we'll see them adding to the set and tweaking certain things over the rest of the season.

Some more examples of what it looks like when run well:


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2016 9:37 am    Post subject:

No joke, I sat down with my coffee and a donut just now with the intention of increasing my knowledge of Motion Weak, only to find this post. Your fluency in a number of offenses astounds me. I know the stuff that I run inside and out, and have a passable knowledge of a few others, but nothing like you do. You're a real treasure to LG, dude.

What do they call the wing to wing cut that's made by the 1 at the beginning of the play?
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2016 12:01 pm    Post subject:

I think that's a two-part cut. It's supposed to be an initial basket cut where the big up top has a chance to hit the PG for a score if the defender gives him room. That's the first read before he goes to the wing.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2016 12:06 pm    Post subject:

fiendishoc for president
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2016 1:20 pm    Post subject:

Fair to doubt our head coach knowing this stuff? Get fiendishoc a job with the Lakers.

Thanks for the post.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2016 1:42 pm    Post subject:

anpherknee wrote:
fiendishoc for president


I second this. With GT for VP and DB Speaker of the House.

Seriously - these clips and this explanation of Motion Weak makes it so much more interesting to watch the action regardless of the score, just to see where each of our players are at with regards to running this offense.
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