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fiendishoc
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 1:15 am    Post subject:

A Mad Chinaman wrote:
fiendishoc wrote:
^ I know it's not going to deviate you from your blame the young players schtick (two of our better defenders are young players of course you ignore that), but it's quite obvious that Byron has Huertas and Russell running different sets and running with different players. You know what Huerta's net rating is with Hibbert on the floor? Minus 34!
So who are our two best defenders

Wondering who have been on the court during our fantastic start of games and the beginning of the third quarter

What are your thoughts on why Huertsas leading the 2nd team has to always make up big deficits

How many MPG has Huertsas played with Hibbert


There seems to be a twisted world where Nance and Black are not considered young players and Clarkson and Randle are. Even DLO is above average on D for this team.

Hibbert is on the court. That's the one constant.

He hasn't done it as often as DLO has.

Exactly.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 5:25 am    Post subject:

fiendishoc wrote:
A Mad Chinaman wrote:
fiendishoc wrote:
^ I know it's not going to deviate you from your blame the young players schtick (two of our better defenders are young players of course you ignore that), but it's quite obvious that Byron has Huertas and Russell running different sets and running with different players. You know what Huerta's net rating is with Hibbert on the floor? Minus 34!
So who are our two best defenders

Wondering who have been on the court during our fantastic start of games and the beginning of the third quarter

What are your thoughts on why Huertsas leading the 2nd team has to always make up big deficits

How many MPG has Huertsas played with Hibbert


There seems to be a twisted world where Nance and Black are not considered young players and Clarkson and Randle are. Even DLO is above average on D for this team.

Hibbert is on the court. That's the one constant.

He hasn't done it as often as DLO has.

Exactly.


DLO is the best defender of the starting five. The problem is that the other four players don't give much effort. It is disappointing to see Randle and Clarkson not being up to it. Randle has improved lately a bit (very little, though), Clarkson has declined. I still think that under proper guidance these three could play solid D. Under Scott there just is no system. Not offensively nor defensively.
Kobe and Hibbert are what they are. Done.

The rest of the young players are all pretty solid defensively. Nance is leading the pack, of course.
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A Mad Chinaman
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 9:53 am    Post subject:

s_habe wrote:
fiendishoc wrote:
A Mad Chinaman wrote:
fiendishoc wrote:
^ I know it's not going to deviate you from your blame the young players schtick (two of our better defenders are young players of course you ignore that), but it's quite obvious that Byron has Huertas and Russell running different sets and running with different players. You know what Huerta's net rating is with Hibbert on the floor? Minus 34!
So who are our two best defenders

Wondering who have been on the court during our fantastic start of games and the beginning of the third quarter

What are your thoughts on why Huertsas leading the 2nd team has to always make up big deficits

How many MPG has Huertsas played with Hibbert
There seems to be a twisted world where Nance and Black are not considered young players and Clarkson and Randle are. Even DLO is above average on D for this team.

Hibbert is on the court. That's the one constant.

He hasn't done it as often as DLO has.

Exactly.
DLO is the best defender of the starting five. The problem is that the other four players don't give much effort. It is disappointing to see Randle and Clarkson not being up to it. Randle has improved lately a bit (very little, though), Clarkson has declined. I still think that under proper guidance these three could play solid D. Under Scott there just is no system. Not offensively nor defensively.
Kobe and Hibbert are what they are. Done.

The rest of the young players are all pretty solid defensively. Nance is leading the pack, of course.
Of the young players, Black and Nance have consistency provided great effort that is great to see. Their mistakes on the court are just part of the game and their learning curve that is understandable.

Funny how Byron's non-system worked in the Warriors game and a few others. As Big Game, Coach Dave, Toine, Big Shot and AC have stated many times - there comes a time where the players are responsible and displaying basic Basketball IQ intelligence is expected.

DLO/JC have uber physical skills to have the potential to at least be good defenders. Unfortunately, neither (at this time) are not displaying any "dawg" in them to actually have the desire to shut anybody down or get the ball to move on offense

Noting that Byron rarely calls out plays, it would be strange to have different offensive/defensive sets when DLO is on the court, as oppose to Huertsas. What is obvious is DLO and JC are looking to score first - just like Randle. Anybody watching DLO/JC/Randle can easily predict their normal ISO action. Huertsas has the exact opposite problem that is seen with opposing teams loading/shooting the gaps when he is penetrating. When players are always moving, everything looks different when compared to when everybody is watching someone in an ISO.

JC/Randle/DLO are young players being paid as full fledge NBA players (with or without experience). JC is a RFA and the FO has to decide if he is worth $12-$15M a year. He is physically gifted and might have the success of Kent Bazemore or he might have a career like Wes Johnson.

Randle is averaging double doubles, with 20 rebounds in the last game that showed his effort. His offensive game has many holes that hopefully he will start addressing during the summer

DLO apparently is a combo guard with great passing skills that have many times gone unused. Since everybody on the court are aware of their pattern, there is little movement except for the defense to load up when they finally make their move.

Acknowledging that the NBA is a players league, production and effort are high priorities. It will be interesting to see how much DLO/JC/Randle works on their game during the off-season. These talented young players have great potential to be good to very good players. As Kobe shared, some players can develop the "dawg" in them to take the challenge of consistency winning against top players. Presently they are being slapped around by the majority of guards. Just want to see just one time where DLO and JC have a MWP/Kobe mindset of shutting somebody down
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 12:41 pm    Post subject:

Programming Note: Probably won't be able to cover this next game.
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fiendishoc
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 5:11 pm    Post subject:

@AMC

It's thinking that like that lead Byron to the worst winning percentage and worst record of any coach of at least 1000 games. The league has passed by this style of letting players sink or swim on their own and the progression of his record has shown it.

Blaming players based on youth and excusing older players who are guiltier of the exact same things is just going to cause the locker room to tune out whatever he's preaching. Yes the young players have flaws as do all young players. It's Byron's job to teach them and get the team on the same page. Other teams have young flawed players too. But none look like the mess that have been the last several teams that Byron has coached, including ones stocked with vets. Look at the difference between how the Lakers play and how Utah played both this year and last year. That is the youngest team in the league, and last years Lakers were stocked with vets. Byron continually harps on the youth because he thinks they are a built in excuse for his shortcomings.

Funny how every player in the last six seasons that Byron has coached has turned into the worst version of themselves on the court. It's not just Hibbert himself dragging the team down, it's how he's being used. Just like how Jordan Hill was used last year. The general consensus around the league is that Byron has the Lakers playing an outdated style of basketball. One whose shortcomings that we have detailed thoroughly on these forums.

Giving Byron credit for the GS victory and blaming the players for the 62 losses is just ridiculous thinking. We beat GS last year too. These things happen in the variance of things that go on in the basketball court in spite of the hurdles put in the team's way.

If Huertas was as effective as you say he is wouldn't he be better than -34 per 100 possessions in the total time that he's on the court with Hibbert? Wouldn't the team score more than 87 points per 100 possessions and give up less than 121 points per 100 possessions when they are on the court together?
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A Mad Chinaman
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 8:53 pm    Post subject:

fiendishoc wrote:
@AMC

It's thinking that like that lead Byron to the worst winning percentage and worst record of any coach of at least 1000 games. The league has passed by this style of letting players sink or swim on their own and the progression of his record has shown it.

Blaming players based on youth and excusing older players who are guiltier of the exact same things is just going to cause the locker room to tune out whatever he's preaching. Yes the young players have flaws as do all young players. It's Byron's job to teach them and get the team on the same page. Other teams have young flawed players too. But none look like the mess that have been the last several teams that Byron has coached, including ones stocked with vets. Look at the difference between how the Lakers play and how Utah played both this year and last year. That is the youngest team in the league, and last years Lakers were stocked with vets. Byron continually harps on the youth because he thinks they are a built in excuse for his shortcomings.

Funny how every player in the last six seasons that Byron has coached has turned into the worst version of themselves on the court. It's not just Hibbert himself dragging the team down, it's how he's being used. Just like how Jordan Hill was used last year. The general consensus around the league is that Byron has the Lakers playing an outdated style of basketball. One whose shortcomings that we have detailed thoroughly on these forums.

Giving Byron credit for the GS victory and blaming the players for the 62 losses is just ridiculous thinking. We beat GS last year too. These things happen in the variance of things that go on in the basketball court in spite of the hurdles put in the team's way.

If Huertas was as effective as you say he is wouldn't he be better than -34 per 100 possessions in the total time that he's on the court with Hibbert? Wouldn't the team score more than 87 points per 100 possessions and give up less than 121 points per 100 possessions when they are on the court together?
As always, respect and consider all your views

Is Byron the best coach for this team, probably not. It is very hard to imagine any other coach could be much better with a roster filled with very young players while dealing with Kobe's Farewell Tour madness. Zen Master and Pop would have benched the young players - Phil might have (as he has done in the past) let the young players finish the blowout losses to the point that they are either totally embarrassed and leave the NBA or got so PO'd and sick and tired of being plastered. Pop might have (as he has done before) sub out all five players after playing just three minutes in the game.

Brett Stevens and the Celtics is an appropriate comparison. Ainge took a different route and fully committed to an youth movement that included jettisoning KG, The Truth and Ray Allen. Their roster was completely made of young players (not under the scrutiny that the Lakers always receive and finally getting better - like Utah and MN. Jeanie was 150% committed to being loyal to Kobe and its consequences/benefits

Byron should be held accountable for the misery - good and bad - because he is the HC. What should the players should be accountable for because using Byron as an excuse does not dismiss the lack of giving simple energy, focus, intensity and passion to NOT lose.

Older players should also be held accountable. Bass has played well, MWP always play with an edge, Williams has produced, Sacre has been a good teammate (imagine if we have had Upshaw instead of Sacre), Kelly (always played hard even though he has largely been ineffective and Kobe (when healthy has played effectively). Hibbert

One wonders what low post threats did the Lakers have - Hibbert (nope), Kobe (not consistency), Randle (doesn't have enough counter moves or jump shot), Black (good at P&Rs), Bass (see Black), Sacre (OMG), MWP (not consistently) and/or Kelly (having problems hitting any shots. Hibbert has been exposed as a player that needs to play in a system that has been embraced by the Grizzs and (to a lessor extent, the Cavs). The older players (overall) have played to expectations - except Hibbert

From Pressey to Mad Dog to Murray to Big Game - the young players have good to excellent coaches at their disposal. What assistant coaches are definitively better than ours. At this time, our young players have the attitude that they are still in school where one is graded on effort. Hopefully soon they will realize they are playing in a grown man's game where hating to lose is the only priority. When will any of the young players get PO'd that they lost. As shared, which player will play the DFish role to make them accountable.

One would think that after being asked so many times what was wrong that something would have changed - since nothing did

Interesting that the vast majority of the players from last year are playing in the NBA - do numerous other coaches must have seen something.

Let's hope for the best for our young players.

It will be interesting to see who believes that JC is worth $12-$15M a year

Fiendishoc - am I completely off base
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 10:18 pm    Post subject:

AMC, I think it would help to not mix things up.

DEFENSIVELY, yes, there should be more effort. But there is no guidance or proper help system (on coach), and no anchoring (on Hibbert) and no leading by example ( on Kobe). All in all the starting five have given up playing D and this is disgusting.
Still, a dedicated coach should be able to turn it around. The players have the skill to play D. The yare just not held accountable.

OFFENIVELY, the players follow what the coach teaches snd whatever experience they have. Huertas is pass first type and has ton of experience. JC is clearly a SG and looks to score. Russell is somewhere in between, but also the one who tries (at least tried up until the all star break) to follow the coach's directions. You can aslo see him struggling because of the lack of movement and misplacement. Iso-ball is not his choice. This is what Scott has instilled on this team.

There have been a few games with good ball movement. Hence, the team can do that. But that is not the culture instilled in this team by Scott. Lakers play regularly iso because that is what fits Scott's idea of bball.

Young players need guidance. Scott unfortunately has failed guiding them to the winning habits.
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PG Johnson / Goodrich
SG Bryant / West / Scott
SF Baylor / Worthy / Cooper
PF Mikkelsen / Hairston / McAdoo / Gasol
C Chamberlain / Abdul-Jabbar / O'Neal / Mikan
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A Mad Chinaman
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 1:29 am    Post subject:

s_habe wrote:
DEFENSIVELY, yes, there should be more effort. But there is no guidance or proper help system (on coach), and no anchoring (on Hibbert) and no leading by example ( on Kobe). All in all the starting five have given up playing D and this is disgusting.
It does appear that way. However, from people like Big Game James, there is a definite system that Byron wants to play. If one player is late on a rotation or not in the right place, everything looks like a mess Hibbert's skills are better use when he is designated to defend a certain area of the court because he doesn't have the physical skills to do more. Agree that Kobe is not a great example after playing 20 years and still depended on providing offensive production. It is amazing the great difference in energy when MWP is on the court and when Kobe decides to take out one player at the end of several games.
s_habe wrote:
Still, a dedicated coach should be able to turn it around. The players have the skill to play D. The yare just not held accountable.
Hard to see how any other HC would make much of a difference with very young players playing with old players. The only way Byron can "guide" the players is through PT. There has to be somebody on the court to make the other players accountable to consistently missed assignments. It is fascinating that the young players keep saying the same thing at the post game interviews but haven't not done it yet with any consistency.
s_habe wrote:
OFFENIVELY, the players follow what the coach teaches snd whatever experience they have. Huertas is pass first type and has ton of experience. JC is clearly a SG and looks to score. Russell is somewhere in between, but also the one who tries (at least tried up until the all star break) to follow the coach's directions. You can aslo see him struggling because of the lack of movement and misplacement. Iso-ball is not his choice. This is what Scott has instilled on this team. It appears that JC/DLO/Randle's first agenda is to take turns going ISO.

There have been a few games with good ball movement. Hence, the team can do that. But that is not the culture instilled in this team by Scott. Lakers play regularly iso because that is what fits Scott's idea of bball.


Young players need guidance. Scott unfortunately has failed guiding them to the winning habits.[/quote]If Byron wanted ISO all the time, the numerous times within games where the ball is consistently moving would not happen. Byron has lamented on the lack of ball movement and changed the offense to promote movement. At what point are the players accountable to executing the game plan.

Don't believe that Byron taught one style of offensive sets for Huertsas and one for DLO especially with both playing with the same players.

Conclusion
Is Byron the right coach for this team (not if he is a good coach), probably not.

Jeanie/Jim/Mitch seemingly is leaning more towards a style akin to the Grizzs where they pound the ball into the paint that frees the shooters. Lakers have gone through coaches every two years which is not conducive to building a dynasty ala the Spurs. Even the Warriors went through a long drought before their recent success.

People have been clamoring to have a HC like Ollie. How much of a rope would he have since he would have to learn how to be a NBA HC (acknowledging his background). Same question if we hire Luke or a Mark Jackson. The young players would probably revolt if somebody like Thiebs or JVG was the HC. With any of the above-mentioned coaches, there would be a stiff learning curve with many expectations placed on the young players who have hopefully worked on their games during the upcoming offseason.

I hope that the young players will pan out, though it doesn't look like DLO or JC will be superstars because they (presently) lacked the mental toughness and the attitude of extreme hatred of losing that players like Kobe, CP3, Irving, Lillard, Westbrook and a few others displayed the first time they were on the court. They will have long careers, like JLin.

Hope I am wrong because looking eagerly to the times where they are once again the elite NBA team
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fiendishoc
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 6:19 am    Post subject:

@AMC I just want to address your question about the assistant coaches. No, I don't think that we have one of the better coaching staffs in the league. Pressey has been Byron's right hand man on a lot of bad and disorganized teams. Eyen has been the defensive game planner for a lot of horrific defensive teams. Madsen seems to be still learning the ropes and hasn't shown anything. Worthy is a part time skill development coach.

I used to be down on them even more on the basis of them not seeming to intervene in some of the counter productive things that Byron has put in. But I realize now that for many coaching staffs in the league, especially the ones with an old school culture, it's very difficult politically and career-wise to question anything that the head coach does.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 11:16 pm    Post subject:

A Mad Chinaman wrote:
However, from people like Big Game James, there is a definite system that Byron wants to play.


Just a note. You should not take the words of Worthy without heavy criticism. He is part of Scott's staff. So, not exactly unbiased.
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Lakers depth chart

PG Johnson / Goodrich
SG Bryant / West / Scott
SF Baylor / Worthy / Cooper
PF Mikkelsen / Hairston / McAdoo / Gasol
C Chamberlain / Abdul-Jabbar / O'Neal / Mikan
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