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KeepItRealOrElse
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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 6:53 pm    Post subject:

shortodom wrote:
Any way we can end up with Paul George after this?


In two years, after they are perpetually getting bounced early.
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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 7:05 pm    Post subject:

KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
shortodom wrote:
Any way we can end up with Paul George after this?


In two years, after they are perpetually getting bounced early.


Well, that gives him two years to figure out how to shoot the (bleep) ball and hopefully get his A/TO ratio above 1.25 ...

He has a lot of raw potential, but I don't think he's there yet (i.e., savior of the Lakers) ...
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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 7:20 pm    Post subject:

the association wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
shortodom wrote:
Any way we can end up with Paul George after this?


In two years, after they are perpetually getting bounced early.


Well, that gives him two years to figure out how to shoot the (bleep) ball and hopefully get his A/TO ratio above 1.25 ...

He has a lot of raw potential, but I don't think he's there yet (i.e., savior of the Lakers) ...


He's probably peaked. Kobe is gone and no other current perimeter player will come close to him.
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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 7:29 pm    Post subject:

CBaller8 wrote:
the association wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
shortodom wrote:
Any way we can end up with Paul George after this?


In two years, after they are perpetually getting bounced early.


Well, that gives him two years to figure out how to shoot the (bleep) ball and hopefully get his A/TO ratio above 1.25 ...

He has a lot of raw potential, but I don't think he's there yet (i.e., savior of the Lakers) ...


He's probably peaked. Kobe is gone and no other current perimeter player will come close to him.


George is still 25 years old, so hopefully he finds the internal fire to continue improving his game. It needs work, but I have concerns that he's probably not a "master your craft" type of worker. And I agree that he's obviously not going to reach Kobe's level of excellence, but is that what we're shooting for now anyway, as an organization? If so, I don't love our odds.

I don't believe we need an all-time great to reach the pinnacle again. We will win as a team, just like we always have ...
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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 7:33 pm    Post subject:

Hopefully the Raptors win so Derozan can stay the hell away from the Lakers.
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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 7:47 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
Adrian WojnarowskiVerified account ‏@WojVerticalNBA 3m3 minutes ago
Sources: Indiana coach Frank Vogel's contract expires at season's end and so far there's been no discussion of a contract extension.
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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 7:59 pm    Post subject:

Basketball Fan wrote:
Quote:
Adrian WojnarowskiVerified account ‏@WojVerticalNBA 3m3 minutes ago
Sources: Indiana coach Frank Vogel's contract expires at season's end and so far there's been no discussion of a contract extension.


Frank Vogel's reign in Indianapolis reminds me of a slightly more successful version of early Lawrence Frank in East Rutherford ... there's some nice wordplay there, too. Lawrence Frank Vogel ...

Unfortunately for both, unmitigated beatings at the hand(s) of Dwyane Wade and/or LeBron James led / will lead to their ultimate demise as head coaches.

The Pacers need to make a move ...
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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 8:01 pm    Post subject:

Basketball Fan wrote:
Quote:
Adrian WojnarowskiVerified account ‏@WojVerticalNBA 3m3 minutes ago
Sources: Indiana coach Frank Vogel's contract expires at season's end and so far there's been no discussion of a contract extension.


that's...strange. guy is a good coach, not very sharp on the offensive side of the ball but solid coach, had some bad rotations in the playoffs, leaving george hill, monta and paul george all out at the same time, in order to play stuckey, solomon hill and the corpse of ty lawson...but is a good coach overall
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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 8:03 pm    Post subject:

the association wrote:
Basketball Fan wrote:
Quote:
Adrian WojnarowskiVerified account ‏@WojVerticalNBA 3m3 minutes ago
Sources: Indiana coach Frank Vogel's contract expires at season's end and so far there's been no discussion of a contract extension.


Frank Vogel's reign in Indianapolis reminds me of a slightly more successful version of early Lawrence Frank in East Rutherford ... there's some nice wordplay there, too. Lawrence Frank Vogel ...

Unfortunately for both, unmitigated beatings at the hand(s) of Dwyane Wade and/or LeBron James led / will lead to their ultimate demise as head coaches.

The Pacers need to make a move ...


Funny you mention Lawrence Frank since he's from around these parts. I think the Pacers were fortunate that D. Rose missed significant time to make this team appear better than what it really was. Its not so much I think Vogel is terrible I just don't think what he's doing works for the Pacers anymore. Its becoming clear to me he's more dependent on Paul George than George is on him.

However if Vogel goes Bird should go with him there's no point in canning Vogel if Bird stays.

Honestly I'm surprised he lasted this long considering many thought he was going to get canned when he lost the team a couple years ago.
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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 8:09 pm    Post subject:

Basketball Fan wrote:
the association wrote:
Basketball Fan wrote:
Quote:
Adrian WojnarowskiVerified account ‏@WojVerticalNBA 3m3 minutes ago
Sources: Indiana coach Frank Vogel's contract expires at season's end and so far there's been no discussion of a contract extension.


Frank Vogel's reign in Indianapolis reminds me of a slightly more successful version of early Lawrence Frank in East Rutherford ... there's some nice wordplay there, too. Lawrence Frank Vogel ...

Unfortunately for both, unmitigated beatings at the hand(s) of Dwyane Wade and/or LeBron James led / will lead to their ultimate demise as head coaches.

The Pacers need to make a move ...


Funny you mention Lawrence Frank since he's from around these parts. I think the Pacers were fortunate that D. Rose missed significant time to make this team appear better than what it really was. Its not so much I think Vogel is terrible I just don't think what he's doing works for the Pacers anymore. Its becoming clear to me he's more dependent on Paul George than George is on him.

However if Vogel goes Bird should go with him there's no point in canning Vogel if Bird stays.

Honestly I'm surprised he lasted this long considering many thought he was going to get canned when he lost the team a couple years ago.


I struggle to imagine Larry Legend actively filling that role anyway ... isn't Pritchard really doing the heavy lifting there?
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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 8:11 pm    Post subject:

Larry has a role here although he's scaled back a bit due to health problems
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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 8:12 pm    Post subject:

Not sure why Paul George didn't take the shot.....in these playoff situations you put the team on your back and take the damn shot.
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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 8:14 pm    Post subject:

I do have my frustrations with George its obvious this team needs a veteran presence that David West brought to the table. But you know I don't blame him for going to the Spurs they're everything the Pacers aren't.

PG13 if he wants to be in the LeBron, Kobe category needs to be a more active leader.
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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 8:21 pm    Post subject:

the association wrote:
CBaller8 wrote:
the association wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
shortodom wrote:
Any way we can end up with Paul George after this?


In two years, after they are perpetually getting bounced early.


Well, that gives him two years to figure out how to shoot the (bleep) ball and hopefully get his A/TO ratio above 1.25 ...

He has a lot of raw potential, but I don't think he's there yet (i.e., savior of the Lakers) ...


He's probably peaked. Kobe is gone and no other current perimeter player will come close to him.


George is still 25 years old, so hopefully he finds the internal fire to continue improving his game. It needs work, but I have concerns that he's probably not a "master your craft" type of worker. And I agree that he's obviously not going to reach Kobe's level of excellence, but is that what we're shooting for now anyway, as an organization? If so, I don't love our odds.

I don't believe we need an all-time great to reach the pinnacle again. We will win as a team, just like we always have ...



How often do teams win the Championship without having some special talent?
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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 8:24 pm    Post subject:

This whole thing with the Pacers right now reminds me of the Colts at the end of the season except people expected Pagano to be fired and he stayed. With Vogel its the opposite.
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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 8:25 pm    Post subject:

Basketball Fan wrote:
I do have my frustrations with George its obvious this team needs a veteran presence that David West brought to the table. But you know I don't blame him for going to the Spurs they're everything the Pacers aren't.

PG13 if he wants to be in the LeBron, Kobe category needs to be a more active leader.


I think that's a big part of the problem with PG13 ... I just don't think he possesses the talent and DNA to ascend into that category. But that shouldn't be an indictment of him as a guy who has potential to lead (or co-lead) a franchise to the promised land. He's not close to being there now, but I can imagine he could get there with a tireless drive to make it happen.

However, if the Pacers fanbase is aiming for that guy to eventually match the level of play of two of the top 15 players of all time, there's a real tough row to hoe in Indianapolis right now.
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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 8:27 pm    Post subject:

I don't expect miracles here but I think this team needs a new direction sometimes things run their course and I think that with Frank. I'm not sure who I would want to replace him but I'm sure many thought replacing Steve Kerr with Mark Jackson was a mistake....

(No I don't think the Pacers will be that great )
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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 8:37 pm    Post subject:

Bard207 wrote:
the association wrote:
CBaller8 wrote:
the association wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
shortodom wrote:
Any way we can end up with Paul George after this?


In two years, after they are perpetually getting bounced early.


Well, that gives him two years to figure out how to shoot the (bleep) ball and hopefully get his A/TO ratio above 1.25 ...

He has a lot of raw potential, but I don't think he's there yet (i.e., savior of the Lakers) ...


He's probably peaked. Kobe is gone and no other current perimeter player will come close to him.


George is still 25 years old, so hopefully he finds the internal fire to continue improving his game. It needs work, but I have concerns that he's probably not a "master your craft" type of worker. And I agree that he's obviously not going to reach Kobe's level of excellence, but is that what we're shooting for now anyway, as an organization? If so, I don't love our odds.

I don't believe we need an all-time great to reach the pinnacle again. We will win as a team, just like we always have ...



How often do teams win the Championship without having some special talent?


The odds of winning with transcendent talent obviously reflect the greater abilities of said player(s). And I don't know about "special talent", but how many teams have won championships without a prime Kobe- or LeBron-level talent? In the past 12 completed years ...

Pistons in 2004
Spurs in 2007
Celtics in 2008
Mavericks in 2011
Spurs in 2014
Warriors in 2015

So ... 1/2 the time?

The Bulls and Rockets teams in the 1990s had an all-time great in his respective prime, although Jordan wasn't really in his prime for the second three-peat. The Pistons didn't have someone at that level in the late 1980s. The Lakers and Celtics had one in the 1980s, but I'd probably argue that the 76ers didn't have one in his prime.

Anyway, I agree that it's better to have an all-time great on your roster. But I also think it's very possible to reach the pinnacle without one.
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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 8:43 pm    Post subject:

Draymond Green with another triple-double. 23 points 13 rebounds 11 assists.

This kid is the power forward version of Magic Johnson. Amazing.
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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 8:48 pm    Post subject:

the association wrote:
Bard207 wrote:
the association wrote:
CBaller8 wrote:
the association wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
shortodom wrote:
Any way we can end up with Paul George after this?


In two years, after they are perpetually getting bounced early.


Well, that gives him two years to figure out how to shoot the (bleep) ball and hopefully get his A/TO ratio above 1.25 ...

He has a lot of raw potential, but I don't think he's there yet (i.e., savior of the Lakers) ...


He's probably peaked. Kobe is gone and no other current perimeter player will come close to him.


George is still 25 years old, so hopefully he finds the internal fire to continue improving his game. It needs work, but I have concerns that he's probably not a "master your craft" type of worker. And I agree that he's obviously not going to reach Kobe's level of excellence, but is that what we're shooting for now anyway, as an organization? If so, I don't love our odds.

I don't believe we need an all-time great to reach the pinnacle again. We will win as a team, just like we always have ...



How often do teams win the Championship without having some special talent?


The odds of winning with transcendent talent obviously reflect the greater abilities of said player(s). And I don't know about "special talent", but how many teams have won championships without a prime Kobe- or LeBron-level talent? In the past 12 completed years ...

Pistons in 2004
Spurs in 2007
Celtics in 2008
Mavericks in 2011
Spurs in 2014
Warriors in 2015

So ... 1/2 the time?

The Bulls and Rockets teams in the 1990s had an all-time great in his respective prime, although Jordan wasn't really in his prime for the second three-peat. The Pistons didn't have someone at that level in the late 1980s. The Lakers and Celtics had one in the 1980s, but I'd probably argue that the 76ers didn't have one in his prime.

Anyway, I agree that it's better to have an all-time great on your roster. But I also think it's very possible to reach the pinnacle without one.



Was the performance level of Dirk, Duncan and Curry on past Championship teams that much lower than LeBron and Kobe on past Championship teams? The Pistons and possibly the Celtics struck me more as ensembles rather than having one special player leading the way.



You wrote this earlier:

Quote:
We will win as a team, just like we always have ...



then this:

Quote:
but how many teams have won championships without a prime Kobe- or LeBron-level talent?



Whether it was a prime Kobe or a prime Shaq, the Lakers (as have most championship teams) needed at least one player executing at a high level rather than an ensemble like the Pistons (and perhaps the Celtics).
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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 9:00 pm    Post subject:

Bard207 wrote:
the association wrote:
Bard207 wrote:
the association wrote:
CBaller8 wrote:
the association wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
shortodom wrote:
Any way we can end up with Paul George after this?


In two years, after they are perpetually getting bounced early.


Well, that gives him two years to figure out how to shoot the (bleep) ball and hopefully get his A/TO ratio above 1.25 ...

He has a lot of raw potential, but I don't think he's there yet (i.e., savior of the Lakers) ...


He's probably peaked. Kobe is gone and no other current perimeter player will come close to him.


George is still 25 years old, so hopefully he finds the internal fire to continue improving his game. It needs work, but I have concerns that he's probably not a "master your craft" type of worker. And I agree that he's obviously not going to reach Kobe's level of excellence, but is that what we're shooting for now anyway, as an organization? If so, I don't love our odds.

I don't believe we need an all-time great to reach the pinnacle again. We will win as a team, just like we always have ...



How often do teams win the Championship without having some special talent?


The odds of winning with transcendent talent obviously reflect the greater abilities of said player(s). And I don't know about "special talent", but how many teams have won championships without a prime Kobe- or LeBron-level talent? In the past 12 completed years ...

Pistons in 2004
Spurs in 2007
Celtics in 2008
Mavericks in 2011
Spurs in 2014
Warriors in 2015

So ... 1/2 the time?

The Bulls and Rockets teams in the 1990s had an all-time great in his respective prime, although Jordan wasn't really in his prime for the second three-peat. The Pistons didn't have someone at that level in the late 1980s. The Lakers and Celtics had one in the 1980s, but I'd probably argue that the 76ers didn't have one in his prime.

Anyway, I agree that it's better to have an all-time great on your roster. But I also think it's very possible to reach the pinnacle without one.



Was the performance level of Dirk, Duncan and Curry on past Championship teams that much lower than LeBron and Kobe on past Championship teams? The Pistons and possibly the Celtics struck me more as ensembles rather than having one special player leading the way.


You wrote this earlier:

Quote:
We will win as a team, just like we always have ...



then this:

Quote:
but how many teams have won championships without a prime Kobe- or LeBron-level talent?



Whether it was a prime Kobe or a prime Shaq, the Lakers (as have most championship teams) needed at least one player executing at a high level rather than an ensemble like the Pistons (and perhaps the Celtics).


Regarding the Dirk, Duncan (in the years I identified), and Curry question ... yes, it was that much lower. Curry didn't even manage to snare the Finals MVP, and while his stats were really good, that fact says a lot.

Regarding the "this ... then this" quotation ... in the second part, I was asking the question (framed by the flow of the discussion) as a rhetorical response to your question bolded above. And then I proceeded to discuss the fact that 1/2 the teams who won championships in the past 12 years (at least) did so without a player providing a transcendent performance.


Last edited by the association on Sun May 01, 2016 9:04 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 9:01 pm    Post subject:

pio2u wrote:
Draymond Green with another triple-double. 23 points 13 rebounds 11 assists.

This kid is the power forward version of Magic Johnson. Amazing.


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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 9:24 pm    Post subject:

the association wrote:
Bard207 wrote:
the association wrote:
Bard207 wrote:
the association wrote:
CBaller8 wrote:
the association wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
shortodom wrote:
Any way we can end up with Paul George after this?


In two years, after they are perpetually getting bounced early.


Well, that gives him two years to figure out how to shoot the (bleep) ball and hopefully get his A/TO ratio above 1.25 ...

He has a lot of raw potential, but I don't think he's there yet (i.e., savior of the Lakers) ...


He's probably peaked. Kobe is gone and no other current perimeter player will come close to him.


George is still 25 years old, so hopefully he finds the internal fire to continue improving his game. It needs work, but I have concerns that he's probably not a "master your craft" type of worker. And I agree that he's obviously not going to reach Kobe's level of excellence, but is that what we're shooting for now anyway, as an organization? If so, I don't love our odds.

I don't believe we need an all-time great to reach the pinnacle again. We will win as a team, just like we always have ...



How often do teams win the Championship without having some special talent?


The odds of winning with transcendent talent obviously reflect the greater abilities of said player(s). And I don't know about "special talent", but how many teams have won championships without a prime Kobe- or LeBron-level talent? In the past 12 completed years ...

Pistons in 2004
Spurs in 2007
Celtics in 2008
Mavericks in 2011
Spurs in 2014
Warriors in 2015

So ... 1/2 the time?

The Bulls and Rockets teams in the 1990s had an all-time great in his respective prime, although Jordan wasn't really in his prime for the second three-peat. The Pistons didn't have someone at that level in the late 1980s. The Lakers and Celtics had one in the 1980s, but I'd probably argue that the 76ers didn't have one in his prime.

Anyway, I agree that it's better to have an all-time great on your roster. But I also think it's very possible to reach the pinnacle without one.



Was the performance level of Dirk, Duncan and Curry on past Championship teams that much lower than LeBron and Kobe on past Championship teams? The Pistons and possibly the Celtics struck me more as ensembles rather than having one special player leading the way.


You wrote this earlier:

Quote:
We will win as a team, just like we always have ...



then this:

Quote:
but how many teams have won championships without a prime Kobe- or LeBron-level talent?



Whether it was a prime Kobe or a prime Shaq, the Lakers (as have most championship teams) needed at least one player executing at a high level rather than an ensemble like the Pistons (and perhaps the Celtics).


Regarding the Dirk, Duncan (in the years I identified), and Curry question ... yes, it was that much lower. Curry didn't even manage to snare the Finals MVP, and while his stats were really good, that fact says a lot.

Regarding the "this ... then this" quotation ... in the second part, I was asking the question (framed by the flow of the discussion) as a rhetorical response to your question bolded above. And then I proceeded to discuss the fact that 1/2 the teams who won championships in the past 12 years (at least) did so without a player providing a transcendent performance.


Okay, that is your POV on the level of play of the various players.



In regards to "this and then this"

Quote:

I don't believe we need an all-time great to reach the pinnacle again. We will win as a team, just like we always have ...



Quote:

Quote:
but how many teams have won championships without a prime Kobe- or LeBron-level talent?



You cited team play in the first quote and then cited a prime Kobe in the second quote.

You listed teams that met your criteria of not having a prime Kobe or LeBron level player.

Quote:

Pistons in 2004
Spurs in 2007
Celtics in 2008
Mavericks in 2011
Spurs in 2014
Warriors in 2015

So ... 1/2 the time?



If the championships of the Lakers in recent years would have been about the team play (rather than Kobe) as you stated:

Quote:

I don't believe we need an all-time great to reach the pinnacle again. We will win as a team, just like we always have ...



Then your list of teams should have been expanded to include the Lakers rather than excluded them.
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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 9:32 pm    Post subject:

[quote="Bard207"][quote="the association"][quote="Bard207"][quote="the association"][quote="Bard207"]
the association wrote:
[quote="CBaller8"

Then your list of teams should have been expanded to include the Lakers rather than excluded them.


Redacted to avoid noise in this thread ...

Here's my view, as brief as I care to make it: Paul George hasn't proven to be, nor do I think he will prove to be, a Kobe- or Lebron-level player. However, he doesn't necessarily need to be for Indiana to compete for a championship. In general, while it's better to have a transcendent player, plenty of teams win championships without one. The performance Steph Curry delivered in the 2015 NBA Finals wasn't a transcendent one. And you're right, I should have included the 2010 Lakers championship on my list. There was no transcendent player in that series, on either side of the court. The previous year, we won as a team because Orlando was a historically weak opponent, but Kobe also had a great individual series.

I hope that clears up any confusion.
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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 9:46 pm    Post subject:

Okay.

I can live with that since your later post about Kobe and LeBron wasn't synching for me when I compared it with your earlier post about the team winning.
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