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mirak
Star Player
Joined: 24 Jun 2005
Posts: 5238
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 Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Jerry West is a gentleman. In the zombie apocalypse, I want him in my group. Phil Jackson, on the other hand...grateful for his years in LA, but he'd probably pull a Shane and shoot you in the leg if it aided his escape. |
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non-player zealot
Franchise Player
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 21365
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| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Mustaine wrote: | And Love would have been FA one year after that trade...
They could have both by this year  |
If I'm Dan Gilbert, I blame the Lakers for always getting good players and winning a lot of championships.
_________________
GOAT MAGIC REEL
SEDALE TRIBUTE
EDDIE DONX! |
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Treble Clef
Franchise Player
Joined: 20 Nov 2012
Posts: 23914
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| Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Roger O. Thornhill wrote: | Lebron's gotten a free pass from the media for his entire career up until this postseason, and I'm supposed to feel sorry for his underachieving ass?  |
I have to wonder what you've been watching. |
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KoreanKobra
Rookie
Joined: 13 Jun 2016
Posts: 15
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| Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:52 am Post subject: |
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| Jerry West is just positioning the Lakers to swoop in and sign LeBron this offseason. [/dreaming] |
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Wino
Star Player
Joined: 07 Jun 2002
Posts: 9674
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 11:23 am Post subject: |
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| lakeshowtacular wrote: | | Wino wrote: | | lakeshowtacular wrote: | | Wino wrote: | | Roger O. Thornhill wrote: | | Lebron's gotten a free pass from the media for his entire career up until this postseason, and I'm supposed to feel sorry for his underachieving ass? |
I just get tired of the media defining players. Kobe was totally screwed by the media who never gave him much of a chance or much respect during his playing career.
It cracks me up because all those BS A-holes who ripped him his whole career, acted like they always knew he was the greatest on his retirement. They can all lick my sweaty balls!!
And so, I have some sympathy for Lebron, who does NOT control these media hacks anymore than Kobe did. |
I never thought I'd say this about the self-proclaimed "King" coming out of high school. Maybe it's because he came in during Kobes peak, and stole a little thunder. Kobe did the same to Jordan (a shade after MJ's peak) and people had a hard time embracing him. I have never seen anyone get destroyed in the media like KBB, but the hot and cold for LeBron is something I have never seen either. Look at 2 of Steph's last 3 games...if Kobe or LeBron play like that in the finals, they are selfish individual players, who can't co-exist with other top flight talent...when Steph or MJ play bad it's an injury or illness. I am not an eL-BJ fan, but I think in this case, the media is far harsher on him than they have been in the past. Deserved or not?! |
I just think the media whores enjoy the fact that they can be the ones who help to define others careers. Or at least try. There is little doubt in my mind, that all the bad PR that Kobe got from the media influenced many to hate him for the wrong reasons.
I hated Bird because he was really good and always a threat, McHale even more, but I respected their skills and actually think Larry is a pretty solid dude. McHale is a bit of a douche but that is just because he is. I pretty much have learned to hate everyone from Boston but I respect them. The media seemed to just love hating Kobe and seeing how far their influence could extend. I think the NBA had the same agenda with Stern at the helm. It is a joke that Kobe only got 1 MVP and Curry already has 2, even Nash got 2. Neither of them are/were half the player Kobe was. |
I agree with you 100%. It was kind of a game to see how much hate the media could heap on Kobe after Colorado/Shaq to Miami, but prior to that he was getting some pretty good run. Kobe became the villain overnight and they never let up until he announced his retirement. If Kobe was "sold" to the fans by the NBA like Mike, LBJ, and now Steph he would have multiple MVP's and everyone would recognize him for what he truly was, the hardest worker you have ever seen...and that made him one of the top 10 basketball players ever.
I can't agree with you more about the old Celtics, respected all of them for their basketball abilities (accept Ainge), but hated them for the poor life choices that had them wearing that Gawd Awful Green. McHale totally seems/seemed like a douche.
LBJ needs to Man Up!
Jerry West needs to come home and assemble a team around LBJ and help him win some chips for the p-n-g  |
I honestly think we should pitch that to Jerry West, come home to a city that needs you. Let he and Mitch run things for a few years, Lets try to talk Lebron into coming with him. He could come here and help set up his son to take over from Mitch down the road. It seems like perfect timing. Come with Luke!!
Seems like a really good idea and the timing couldn't be better!
COME HOME JERRY WEST!!!
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Never argue with stupid people! They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience!! - Twain |
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marga86
Star Player
Joined: 30 Jun 2008
Posts: 3442
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| Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 11:59 am Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | kobeandgary wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | marga86 wrote: | | Slappy wrote: | 22/7/6.8
17.8/7.2/6.8
28.6/10.2/7.4
25.3/10.9/7.0
28.2/7.8/4.0
35.8/13.3/8.8
24.8/11/8.3
But, yeah, he didn't have that purported killer drive in the finals. Jerry, if you read this, take out your frying pan and bash these morons over the head something good.
And for the moron above me, that beats anything Kobe and MJ ever did the finals. |
forgot one stat bro:
2-4
bout to be 2-5 |
Personally, I think a better ranking would be how far players get every season of their career rather than in the years they make the finals, such as
2-3-2-3-4
Rings/conference finals/second round/first round/not in playoffs.
That way you remove the weirdness of suggesting that losing in the finals is worse than not making the playoffs at all, and you can compare guys a little more apples-to-apples. |
Terrible idea when all of the good teams are in the West, the Eastern conference is always a cake walk. If you look at Lebrons record in the Finals it displays his inability to defeat west coast teams in the playoffs, or what's better known as actual championship contending teams. |
In that view the finals w-l record doesn't matter either because he's only in the finals because he faced weak eastern teams and then lost to stronger western teams you would expect to beat his team. |
So you agree, he shouldnt be given credit for making the finals 6 times in a row? |
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activeverb
Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 37470
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| Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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| marga86 wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | kobeandgary wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | marga86 wrote: | | Slappy wrote: | 22/7/6.8
17.8/7.2/6.8
28.6/10.2/7.4
25.3/10.9/7.0
28.2/7.8/4.0
35.8/13.3/8.8
24.8/11/8.3
But, yeah, he didn't have that purported killer drive in the finals. Jerry, if you read this, take out your frying pan and bash these morons over the head something good.
And for the moron above me, that beats anything Kobe and MJ ever did the finals. |
forgot one stat bro:
2-4
bout to be 2-5 |
Personally, I think a better ranking would be how far players get every season of their career rather than in the years they make the finals, such as
2-3-2-3-4
Rings/conference finals/second round/first round/not in playoffs.
That way you remove the weirdness of suggesting that losing in the finals is worse than not making the playoffs at all, and you can compare guys a little more apples-to-apples. |
Terrible idea when all of the good teams are in the West, the Eastern conference is always a cake walk. If you look at Lebrons record in the Finals it displays his inability to defeat west coast teams in the playoffs, or what's better known as actual championship contending teams. |
In that view the finals w-l record doesn't matter either because he's only in the finals because he faced weak eastern teams and then lost to stronger western teams you would expect to beat his team. |
So you agree, he shouldnt be given credit for making the finals 6 times in a row? |
Personally, I tend to rank guys based on rings, but not on general team success so it isn't a big deal for me. In the same way, the finals w-l record isn't a big deal to me either.
That said, I can see why someone else would consider it a feather in his cap, since it's not easy to get to the finals 6 years in a row, even if the competition is weaker in the east. I do think it's better to get to the finals and lose rather than get beaten in an earlier round or not make the playoffs. |
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venturalakersfan
Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001
Posts: 144474
Location: The Gold Coast
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| Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: |
Personally, I tend to rank guys based on rings, but not on general team success so it isn't a big deal for me. In the same way, the finals w-l record isn't a big deal to me either.
That said, I can see why someone else would consider it a feather in his cap, since it's not easy to get to the finals 6 years in a row, even if the competition is weaker in the east. I do think it's better to get to the finals and lose rather than get beaten in an earlier round or not make the playoffs. |
Rings are nothing but team success.
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RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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activeverb
Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 37470
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| Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | activeverb wrote: |
Personally, I tend to rank guys based on rings, but not on general team success so it isn't a big deal for me. In the same way, the finals w-l record isn't a big deal to me either.
That said, I can see why someone else would consider it a feather in his cap, since it's not easy to get to the finals 6 years in a row, even if the competition is weaker in the east. I do think it's better to get to the finals and lose rather than get beaten in an earlier round or not make the playoffs. |
Rings are nothing but team success. |
I take a more nuanced position than you do on this.
Players make up the team. So it's not like the team's accomplishments are unrelated to what the players do. Just the opposite.
And, sure, how many rings a star wins depends on his teammates. But that can also be true for "individual" accomplishments like stats and awards. They can all be affected by who your teammates are. So there really is nothing that is truly individual in a team sport like basketball.
It's really just comes down to a debate/discussion on how much credit you want to apportion to individual players. And, like it or not, in reality players reputations are dramatically affected by how many rings their teams win |
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DaMuleRules
Retired Number
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 52657
Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
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| Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | activeverb wrote: |
Personally, I tend to rank guys based on rings, but not on general team success so it isn't a big deal for me. In the same way, the finals w-l record isn't a big deal to me either.
That said, I can see why someone else would consider it a feather in his cap, since it's not easy to get to the finals 6 years in a row, even if the competition is weaker in the east. I do think it's better to get to the finals and lose rather than get beaten in an earlier round or not make the playoffs. |
Rings are nothing but team success. |
I take a more nuanced position than you do on this.
Players make up the team. So it's not like the team's accomplishments are unrelated to what the players do. Just the opposite.
And, sure, how many rings a star wins depends on his teammates. But that can also be true for "individual" accomplishments like stats and awards. They can all be affected by who your teammates are. So there really is nothing that is truly individual in a team sport like basketball.
It's really just comes down to a debate/discussion on how much credit you want to apportion to individual players. And, like it or not, in reality players reputations are dramatically affected by how many rings their teams win |
Sure, getting to finals and winning a title takes a team. But to my mind, if you're going going to want to be fall into the GOAT category, once your team has put you in the position to win, you really need to 5 and 2, not 2 and 5. I mean if you want to be a GOAT, you need to take responsibility for the wins and losses and not rest behind a "Rings are nothing but team success" attitude.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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Treble Clef
Franchise Player
Joined: 20 Nov 2012
Posts: 23914
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| Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | activeverb wrote: |
Personally, I tend to rank guys based on rings, but not on general team success so it isn't a big deal for me. In the same way, the finals w-l record isn't a big deal to me either.
That said, I can see why someone else would consider it a feather in his cap, since it's not easy to get to the finals 6 years in a row, even if the competition is weaker in the east. I do think it's better to get to the finals and lose rather than get beaten in an earlier round or not make the playoffs. |
Rings are nothing but team success. |
Yup, I feel like Jordan fans started this talk and now the Kobe fans joined in. Before them, it was never used as a way to rank players. |
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activeverb
Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 37470
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| Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | activeverb wrote: |
Personally, I tend to rank guys based on rings, but not on general team success so it isn't a big deal for me. In the same way, the finals w-l record isn't a big deal to me either.
That said, I can see why someone else would consider it a feather in his cap, since it's not easy to get to the finals 6 years in a row, even if the competition is weaker in the east. I do think it's better to get to the finals and lose rather than get beaten in an earlier round or not make the playoffs. |
Rings are nothing but team success. |
I take a more nuanced position than you do on this.
Players make up the team. So it's not like the team's accomplishments are unrelated to what the players do. Just the opposite.
And, sure, how many rings a star wins depends on his teammates. But that can also be true for "individual" accomplishments like stats and awards. They can all be affected by who your teammates are. So there really is nothing that is truly individual in a team sport like basketball.
It's really just comes down to a debate/discussion on how much credit you want to apportion to individual players. And, like it or not, in reality players reputations are dramatically affected by how many rings their teams win |
Sure, getting to finals and winning a title takes a team. But to my mind, if you're going going to want to be fall into the GOAT category, once your team has put you in the position to win, you really need to 5 and 2, not 2 and 5. I mean if you want to be a GOAT, you need to take responsibility for the wins and losses and not rest behind a "Rings are nothing but team success" attitude. |
Well, I don't think Lebron is close to being the GOAT.
Again, I don't think missing the playoffs altogether is better than losing in the finals. So if I were, say, comparing Oscar Robertson and Lebron in the GOAT discussion I wouldn't reward Oscar for not making the finals for most of his career.
But that's me.
Last edited by activeverb on Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:22 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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lakeshowtacular
Starting Rotation
Joined: 22 Jul 2010
Posts: 706
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| Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Wino wrote: | | lakeshowtacular wrote: | | Wino wrote: | | lakeshowtacular wrote: | | Wino wrote: | | Roger O. Thornhill wrote: | | Lebron's gotten a free pass from the media for his entire career up until this postseason, and I'm supposed to feel sorry for his underachieving ass? |
I just get tired of the media defining players. Kobe was totally screwed by the media who never gave him much of a chance or much respect during his playing career.
It cracks me up because all those BS A-holes who ripped him his whole career, acted like they always knew he was the greatest on his retirement. They can all lick my sweaty balls!!
And so, I have some sympathy for Lebron, who does NOT control these media hacks anymore than Kobe did. |
I never thought I'd say this about the self-proclaimed "King" coming out of high school. Maybe it's because he came in during Kobes peak, and stole a little thunder. Kobe did the same to Jordan (a shade after MJ's peak) and people had a hard time embracing him. I have never seen anyone get destroyed in the media like KBB, but the hot and cold for LeBron is something I have never seen either. Look at 2 of Steph's last 3 games...if Kobe or LeBron play like that in the finals, they are selfish individual players, who can't co-exist with other top flight talent...when Steph or MJ play bad it's an injury or illness. I am not an eL-BJ fan, but I think in this case, the media is far harsher on him than they have been in the past. Deserved or not?! |
I just think the media whores enjoy the fact that they can be the ones who help to define others careers. Or at least try. There is little doubt in my mind, that all the bad PR that Kobe got from the media influenced many to hate him for the wrong reasons.
I hated Bird because he was really good and always a threat, McHale even more, but I respected their skills and actually think Larry is a pretty solid dude. McHale is a bit of a douche but that is just because he is. I pretty much have learned to hate everyone from Boston but I respect them. The media seemed to just love hating Kobe and seeing how far their influence could extend. I think the NBA had the same agenda with Stern at the helm. It is a joke that Kobe only got 1 MVP and Curry already has 2, even Nash got 2. Neither of them are/were half the player Kobe was. |
I agree with you 100%. It was kind of a game to see how much hate the media could heap on Kobe after Colorado/Shaq to Miami, but prior to that he was getting some pretty good run. Kobe became the villain overnight and they never let up until he announced his retirement. If Kobe was "sold" to the fans by the NBA like Mike, LBJ, and now Steph he would have multiple MVP's and everyone would recognize him for what he truly was, the hardest worker you have ever seen...and that made him one of the top 10 basketball players ever.
I can't agree with you more about the old Celtics, respected all of them for their basketball abilities (accept Ainge), but hated them for the poor life choices that had them wearing that Gawd Awful Green. McHale totally seems/seemed like a douche.
LBJ needs to Man Up!
Jerry West needs to come home and assemble a team around LBJ and help him win some chips for the p-n-g |
I honestly think we should pitch that to Jerry West, come home to a city that needs you. Let he and Mitch run things for a few years, Lets try to talk Lebron into coming with him. He could come here and help set up his son to take over from Mitch down the road. It seems like perfect timing. Come with Luke!!
Seems like a really good idea and the timing couldn't be better!
COME HOME JERRY WEST!!! |
I'm hoping that would be enough for KD, and then trade Clarkson, Randle, Nick and #32 for A.Davis. If we could add depth to the backcourt, LBJ could get a ring or two with this squad.
D'Lo/Huertas
Lou Will/Ingram
KD/Ingram/Brown
LBJ/Nance/Bass
Davis/Black/Sacre
_________________
Magic*Kobe*LBJ*AD*Cap |
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activeverb
Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 37470
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| Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Treble Clef wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | activeverb wrote: |
Personally, I tend to rank guys based on rings, but not on general team success so it isn't a big deal for me. In the same way, the finals w-l record isn't a big deal to me either.
That said, I can see why someone else would consider it a feather in his cap, since it's not easy to get to the finals 6 years in a row, even if the competition is weaker in the east. I do think it's better to get to the finals and lose rather than get beaten in an earlier round or not make the playoffs. |
Rings are nothing but team success. |
Yup, I feel like Jordan fans started this talk and now the Kobe fans joined in. Before them, it was never used as a way to rank players. |
You really think people never factored in rings in evaluating players before Jordan? |
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Aeneas Hunter
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Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763
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| Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 6:07 am Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | Treble Clef wrote: | | Yup, I feel like Jordan fans started this talk and now the Kobe fans joined in. Before them, it was never used as a way to rank players. |
You really think people never factored in rings in evaluating players before Jordan? |
I don't remember seeing many people acting like Magic's rings were the trump card in the Magic vs. Bird debate. Yeah, it did come up, but not in the way that you see Jordan/Kobe boosters use it.
I suspect that a lot of this is due to Russell. It's hard to have a ring-based argument when Russell is around. Eventually, Russell faded into the distant past of black and white TV images. Even then, you still see a few people pointing to all of Russell's rings in these discussions. |
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activeverb
Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 37470
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| Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 8:34 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | Treble Clef wrote: | | Yup, I feel like Jordan fans started this talk and now the Kobe fans joined in. Before them, it was never used as a way to rank players. |
You really think people never factored in rings in evaluating players before Jordan? |
I don't remember seeing many people acting like Magic's rings were the trump card in the Magic vs. Bird debate. Yeah, it did come up, but not in the way that you see Jordan/Kobe boosters use it.
I suspect that a lot of this is due to Russell. It's hard to have a ring-based argument when Russell is around. Eventually, Russell faded into the distant past of black and white TV images. Even then, you still see a few people pointing to all of Russell's rings in these discussions. |
I think an even big issue is that the Internet didn't really exist in a significant way until the Jordan era. Because of that, we weren't exposed to fan debates in the way we are now. As a result, people today are more likely to be exposed to and cling to data points that they feel make their case, and ignore those that don't.
When it comes to Jordan and Kobe, for example, everyone who cares has heard every pro and con argument, so the explanations about why they are more great or less great tends to pretty similar for everyone -- everyone has heard all the arguments and they cling to the best ones that support their position.
Because the ring argument supports Kobe and Jordan, their fans use it. But they didn't come to their opinion based on how many rings these guys have. It's simple a debate point.
That said, even though people make the case for their favorite player, I don't think rings really are that big a deal to the vast majority of people, or they are a bigger factor in players reputations than they were in the past. You need 2-3 rings to get into the GOAT discussion, but after that the value of additional rings doesn't really seem to boost players reps that much.
Wilt has 2 rings, Bird 3, Russell 13, Shaq 4, Kobe 5, Kareem 6 ... but players ranking usually don't align with the number of rings. They are simply one data point in the pot. |
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