Apple rejects U.S. Government's demand to create an iPhone backdoor
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Aussiesuede
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 5:21 pm    Post subject:

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The government’s surprise decision to withdraw its case against Apple over the San Bernardino killer's iPhone adds uncertainty to criminal cases where state and local authorities have been confronted with more than 1,000 locked smartphones and other devices, blocking access to potential evidence, according to a survey of more than a dozen jurisdictions.

These locked devices are separate from the most high profile one: the iPhone used by Syed Farook, who with his wife, Tashfeen Malik, carried out the December mass shooting in San Bernardino that left 14 dead. In mid February, a California court had ordered Apple to aid the FBI in sidestepping the security function of that iPhone, an action resisted by Apple out of concerns creating new software would make all iPhones more vulnerable.


Government Gives Up. Drops It's Case Against Apple
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ringfinger
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 6:16 am    Post subject:

DuncanIdaho wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
jonnybravo wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
And .... the third party company has hacked the phone successfully already and the government has the data.

http://www.engadget.com/2016/03/28/apple-s-encryption-battle-with-the-fbi-is-over-for-now/

Why isn't everyone panicking about master keys?

I think the freedom fighters got tired of this story already. Not even a couple months old! lol. How does one display so much outrage, only to so quickly display so much indifference? The world we live in now?


There's always a new cause of the day. Righteous or not, it's hard for the public to stay focused on any one topic when the reality is, as a whole, we go about our business, go to work, pay our bills, try to enjoy what free time we have. When the next hot topic comes along, we (and I am guilty of it too) climb on our soap box, rattle off our concerns, quickly move on to the next issue, rinse/repeat.


Yeah. I do think it interesting that the hooplah involved Apple. And we know how .... irrational people can get about things Apple. I doubt we'd have seen the same reaction had the shooter had a Windows phone. I suppose thats what irks me. Hiding behind issues like "privacy" when it is really just brand fandom.


Honestly though, it isn't about brand loyalty, it IS about privacy. At least for me.


Ok, but for those who are upset about privacy, why aren't they protesting that Jared Fogle's laptop was accessed without his permission in his criminal investigation? They just got a warrant / court order and pulled the contents.

Why isn't anyone outraged, at least not to the same extent, that the government is now accessing the SB shooter's phone?

Where is the crying out when police and federal agents knock down the door of someone's house on a warrant-backed raid, when they do a weapons search on a suspect, etc?
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DuncanIdaho
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 8:44 am    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
DuncanIdaho wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
jonnybravo wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
And .... the third party company has hacked the phone successfully already and the government has the data.

http://www.engadget.com/2016/03/28/apple-s-encryption-battle-with-the-fbi-is-over-for-now/

Why isn't everyone panicking about master keys?

I think the freedom fighters got tired of this story already. Not even a couple months old! lol. How does one display so much outrage, only to so quickly display so much indifference? The world we live in now?


There's always a new cause of the day. Righteous or not, it's hard for the public to stay focused on any one topic when the reality is, as a whole, we go about our business, go to work, pay our bills, try to enjoy what free time we have. When the next hot topic comes along, we (and I am guilty of it too) climb on our soap box, rattle off our concerns, quickly move on to the next issue, rinse/repeat.


Yeah. I do think it interesting that the hooplah involved Apple. And we know how .... irrational people can get about things Apple. I doubt we'd have seen the same reaction had the shooter had a Windows phone. I suppose thats what irks me. Hiding behind issues like "privacy" when it is really just brand fandom.


Honestly though, it isn't about brand loyalty, it IS about privacy. At least for me.


Ok, but for those who are upset about privacy, why aren't they protesting that Jared Fogle's laptop was accessed without his permission in his criminal investigation? They just got a warrant / court order and pulled the contents.

Why isn't anyone outraged, at least not to the same extent, that the government is now accessing the SB shooter's phone?

Where is the crying out when police and federal agents knock down the door of someone's house on a warrant-backed raid, when they do a weapons search on a suspect, etc?


There's a difference between the government forcing a multinational corporation to build a backdoor into a hundred million phones, that could be accessed remotely by anyone, including foreign entities and hackers (after all, if there's a backdoor, it can be exploited by anyone), and using its own resources to break into a single phone.

I don't have a problem with Fogle's laptop, them breaking into the SB shooters phone, or any warrant-backed raid. They all had legal warrants, and they were all executed by the government. No private entity was coerced.

I mean, I see the difference here. Is there really no difference to you?
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ringfinger
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 6:49 am    Post subject:

DuncanIdaho wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
DuncanIdaho wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
jonnybravo wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
And .... the third party company has hacked the phone successfully already and the government has the data.

http://www.engadget.com/2016/03/28/apple-s-encryption-battle-with-the-fbi-is-over-for-now/

Why isn't everyone panicking about master keys?

I think the freedom fighters got tired of this story already. Not even a couple months old! lol. How does one display so much outrage, only to so quickly display so much indifference? The world we live in now?


There's always a new cause of the day. Righteous or not, it's hard for the public to stay focused on any one topic when the reality is, as a whole, we go about our business, go to work, pay our bills, try to enjoy what free time we have. When the next hot topic comes along, we (and I am guilty of it too) climb on our soap box, rattle off our concerns, quickly move on to the next issue, rinse/repeat.


Yeah. I do think it interesting that the hooplah involved Apple. And we know how .... irrational people can get about things Apple. I doubt we'd have seen the same reaction had the shooter had a Windows phone. I suppose thats what irks me. Hiding behind issues like "privacy" when it is really just brand fandom.


Honestly though, it isn't about brand loyalty, it IS about privacy. At least for me.


Ok, but for those who are upset about privacy, why aren't they protesting that Jared Fogle's laptop was accessed without his permission in his criminal investigation? They just got a warrant / court order and pulled the contents.

Why isn't anyone outraged, at least not to the same extent, that the government is now accessing the SB shooter's phone?

Where is the crying out when police and federal agents knock down the door of someone's house on a warrant-backed raid, when they do a weapons search on a suspect, etc?


There's a difference between the government forcing a multinational corporation to build a backdoor into a hundred million phones, that could be accessed remotely by anyone, including foreign entities and hackers (after all, if there's a backdoor, it can be exploited by anyone), and using its own resources to break into a single phone.

I don't have a problem with Fogle's laptop, them breaking into the SB shooters phone, or any warrant-backed raid. They all had legal warrants, and they were all executed by the government. No private entity was coerced.

I mean, I see the difference here. Is there really no difference to you?


Wait. You're misunderstood. The government was never, at any time, even asking Apple to build a backdoor OS into a hundred million phones. They were asking Apple to build a backdoor OS in to a single phone (the SB shooters).

The "master key" fear, was that if the government could force Apple to do that for one phone, then, the same tactic COULD be used on any phone.

What is funny about that fear to me, is that the government already has a master key for just about everything else. They can gain access to laptop content through various devices, and they can get access to your home via a master key called a battering ram.

My only issue as it related to the Apple case, was of forced compliance. Not a fan of that. But anyone with "master key" and/or other privacy concerns doesn't understand they already have one for virtually everything else and we'd never had a problem with it so why the hooplah over iPhone and not Dell laptop?
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angrypuppy
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 7:05 am    Post subject:

Well the FBI vs. Apple one act play pretty much went according to script. The FBI knew it was a long-shot, they were just hoping to sympathy following the San Bernardino tragedy. They were hoping that sympathy would register with the masses; it didn't. Apple played their part too, playing up the brand. If they gave a damn about secrecy, they wouldn't have given the source to the People's Republic. Over there, privacy isn't a right, so it doesn't affect The Brand. Over here, privacy is a major component of The Brand, so you lustfully fight for it by popular demand. And in the end, the subpoena, though neutralized by another court, never required Apple to produce such an iOS anyway. And I always figured the FBI would find a way to hack it, just as Apple could if forced.

Winner, winner, chicken dinner. Everyone got what they wanted.
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ringfinger
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 7:27 am    Post subject:

angrypuppy wrote:
Well the FBI vs. Apple one act play pretty much went according to script. The FBI knew it was a long-shot, they were just hoping to sympathy following the San Bernardino tragedy. They were hoping that sympathy would register with the masses; it didn't. Apple played their part too, playing up the brand. If they gave a damn about secrecy, they wouldn't have given the source to the People's Republic. Over there, privacy isn't a right, so it doesn't affect The Brand. Over here, privacy is a major component of The Brand, so you lustfully fight for it by popular demand. And in the end, the subpoena, though neutralized by another court, never required Apple to produce such an iOS anyway. And I always figured the FBI would find a way to hack it, just as Apple could if forced.

Winner, winner, chicken dinner. Everyone got what they wanted.


Well, I'd argue Apple is a slight loser here, but agree wtih your overall premise. They played up the virtues of their security being so unhackable that even THEY couldn't do it.

And then a couple weeks later, the government paired up with Cellbrite and they got in in a day.
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DuncanIdaho
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 8:30 am    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
DuncanIdaho wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
DuncanIdaho wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
jonnybravo wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
And .... the third party company has hacked the phone successfully already and the government has the data.

http://www.engadget.com/2016/03/28/apple-s-encryption-battle-with-the-fbi-is-over-for-now/

Why isn't everyone panicking about master keys?

I think the freedom fighters got tired of this story already. Not even a couple months old! lol. How does one display so much outrage, only to so quickly display so much indifference? The world we live in now?


There's always a new cause of the day. Righteous or not, it's hard for the public to stay focused on any one topic when the reality is, as a whole, we go about our business, go to work, pay our bills, try to enjoy what free time we have. When the next hot topic comes along, we (and I am guilty of it too) climb on our soap box, rattle off our concerns, quickly move on to the next issue, rinse/repeat.


Yeah. I do think it interesting that the hooplah involved Apple. And we know how .... irrational people can get about things Apple. I doubt we'd have seen the same reaction had the shooter had a Windows phone. I suppose thats what irks me. Hiding behind issues like "privacy" when it is really just brand fandom.


Honestly though, it isn't about brand loyalty, it IS about privacy. At least for me.


Ok, but for those who are upset about privacy, why aren't they protesting that Jared Fogle's laptop was accessed without his permission in his criminal investigation? They just got a warrant / court order and pulled the contents.

Why isn't anyone outraged, at least not to the same extent, that the government is now accessing the SB shooter's phone?

Where is the crying out when police and federal agents knock down the door of someone's house on a warrant-backed raid, when they do a weapons search on a suspect, etc?


There's a difference between the government forcing a multinational corporation to build a backdoor into a hundred million phones, that could be accessed remotely by anyone, including foreign entities and hackers (after all, if there's a backdoor, it can be exploited by anyone), and using its own resources to break into a single phone.

I don't have a problem with Fogle's laptop, them breaking into the SB shooters phone, or any warrant-backed raid. They all had legal warrants, and they were all executed by the government. No private entity was coerced.

I mean, I see the difference here. Is there really no difference to you?


Wait. You're misunderstood. The government was never, at any time, even asking Apple to build a backdoor OS into a hundred million phones. They were asking Apple to build a backdoor OS in to a single phone (the SB shooters).

The "master key" fear, was that if the government could force Apple to do that for one phone, then, the same tactic COULD be used on any phone.

What is funny about that fear to me, is that the government already has a master key for just about everything else. They can gain access to laptop content through various devices, and they can get access to your home via a master key called a battering ram.

My only issue as it related to the Apple case, was of forced compliance. Not a fan of that. But anyone with "master key" and/or other privacy concerns doesn't understand they already have one for virtually everything else and we'd never had a problem with it so why the hooplah over iPhone and not Dell laptop?


No, I didn't misunderstand. The government was asking for a backdoor to a "single phone" but the only way to honor that request, according to Apple, was a backdoor for every phone. So in essence, the government was asking for a backdoor to every phone.

Anyway, this issue isn't over and we'll see it in the courts again in the future.
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ringfinger
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 7:03 pm    Post subject:

DuncanIdaho wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
DuncanIdaho wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
DuncanIdaho wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
jonnybravo wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
And .... the third party company has hacked the phone successfully already and the government has the data.

http://www.engadget.com/2016/03/28/apple-s-encryption-battle-with-the-fbi-is-over-for-now/

Why isn't everyone panicking about master keys?

I think the freedom fighters got tired of this story already. Not even a couple months old! lol. How does one display so much outrage, only to so quickly display so much indifference? The world we live in now?


There's always a new cause of the day. Righteous or not, it's hard for the public to stay focused on any one topic when the reality is, as a whole, we go about our business, go to work, pay our bills, try to enjoy what free time we have. When the next hot topic comes along, we (and I am guilty of it too) climb on our soap box, rattle off our concerns, quickly move on to the next issue, rinse/repeat.


Yeah. I do think it interesting that the hooplah involved Apple. And we know how .... irrational people can get about things Apple. I doubt we'd have seen the same reaction had the shooter had a Windows phone. I suppose thats what irks me. Hiding behind issues like "privacy" when it is really just brand fandom.


Honestly though, it isn't about brand loyalty, it IS about privacy. At least for me.


Ok, but for those who are upset about privacy, why aren't they protesting that Jared Fogle's laptop was accessed without his permission in his criminal investigation? They just got a warrant / court order and pulled the contents.

Why isn't anyone outraged, at least not to the same extent, that the government is now accessing the SB shooter's phone?

Where is the crying out when police and federal agents knock down the door of someone's house on a warrant-backed raid, when they do a weapons search on a suspect, etc?


There's a difference between the government forcing a multinational corporation to build a backdoor into a hundred million phones, that could be accessed remotely by anyone, including foreign entities and hackers (after all, if there's a backdoor, it can be exploited by anyone), and using its own resources to break into a single phone.

I don't have a problem with Fogle's laptop, them breaking into the SB shooters phone, or any warrant-backed raid. They all had legal warrants, and they were all executed by the government. No private entity was coerced.

I mean, I see the difference here. Is there really no difference to you?


Wait. You're misunderstood. The government was never, at any time, even asking Apple to build a backdoor OS into a hundred million phones. They were asking Apple to build a backdoor OS in to a single phone (the SB shooters).

The "master key" fear, was that if the government could force Apple to do that for one phone, then, the same tactic COULD be used on any phone.

What is funny about that fear to me, is that the government already has a master key for just about everything else. They can gain access to laptop content through various devices, and they can get access to your home via a master key called a battering ram.

My only issue as it related to the Apple case, was of forced compliance. Not a fan of that. But anyone with "master key" and/or other privacy concerns doesn't understand they already have one for virtually everything else and we'd never had a problem with it so why the hooplah over iPhone and not Dell laptop?


No, I didn't misunderstand. The government was asking for a backdoor to a "single phone" but the only way to honor that request, according to Apple, was a backdoor for every phone. So in essence, the government was asking for a backdoor to every phone.

Anyway, this issue isn't over and we'll see it in the courts again in the future.


Except Apple was wrong or lying since the government has since accessed the shooter's iPhone. So no, what the government was asking, in essence, was NOT a backdoor to every phone. If you read the actual court order, there were many mentions that they were requesting ONLY access to the shooter's device and specifically requested that Apple take measures to provide access ONLY to that one device, even providing serial number and IMEI.

Here's the actual court order: https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/2714001/SB-Shooter-Order-Compelling-Apple-Asst-iPhone.pdf

Anyway, I don't think the issue is over. The government will just work with a 3rd party now to access content on devices just like they have been with every other device and physical location. It's all the same, which is why I thought it was funny people were freaking out just because it's Apple.
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DaMuleRules
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 7:34 pm    Post subject:

What some people are selectively ignoring is that Apple wasn't refusing to unlock one phone. Regardless of what the FBI requested in regards to one phone, the point is that Apple's engineers don't have the capability to hack a single phone. In order to circumvent their encryption and security provisions, they would need to alter their code in GENERAL. They are not able to provide a simple key to invade one phone. To do what the FBI requested would compromise all phones running iOS, because Apple's way in would require a reworking of the security built into the iOS.

The fact that some third party ALLEGEDLY found a way in is totally irrelevant to Apple's argument. And when it comes to this issue, I trust Apple's position on this WAY more than I would ever trust the FBI.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 3:49 am    Post subject:

Yup. Apple doesn't have a discrete key into each phone individually, so if the government can now get into the one phone, they can now hack them all.
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angrypuppy
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 5:39 am    Post subject:

Color me skeptical as to what Apple has at their disposal. I no longer am involved in the design and development of systems, but I doubt Apple is fully disclosing their capabilities. From experience, a good QA team alone would ask for tools that would give them unencumbered access, though I'm sure any tools would be conveniently ignored by corporate. But then if you're in corporate, you do not want to know or ask questions, as it can get you into trouble.

If you wrote a layer over the kernal layer to replace iOS, such a system would not need to be surrendered. It wouldn't be a fully functional operating system per se, but something very limited to access what is stored on the hardware. There seems to be an implicit misunderstanding, perhaps promoted by Apple, that a backdoor would have to be written into the software for future releases. The subpoena was quite narrow in scope and definitely not a requirement.

I don't trust the FBI. I also don't trust Apple. Like Google, they love promoting themselves as the good guys, but I think being a good citizen is part of the brand. The brand ethic is followed, unless it conflicts with future profits.

The FBI is alleging they might now have access, and I strongly suspect they either do or will have access soon. That alone should strongly imply that the "virtual key" argument is yet another Apple-hyped excuse. How do you reconcile the "no virtual key argument" if a third-party does indeed gain access?
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ringfinger
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 6:48 am    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
What some people are selectively ignoring is that Apple wasn't refusing to unlock one phone. Regardless of what the FBI requested in regards to one phone, the point is that Apple's engineers don't have the capability to hack a single phone. In order to circumvent their encryption and security provisions, they would need to alter their code in GENERAL. They are not able to provide a simple key to invade one phone. To do what the FBI requested would compromise all phones running iOS, because Apple's way in would require a reworking of the security built into the iOS.

The fact that some third party ALLEGEDLY found a way in is totally irrelevant to Apple's argument. And when it comes to this issue, I trust Apple's position on this WAY more than I would ever trust the FBI.


And what other folks are selectively ignoring, is that the FBI/Police can already access every other device. Your laptop, other phones, etc. There is a device made by the same company the government is working with now that police officers can keep in their cars and use with like 8,000 different devices.

This device was already in existence prior to the Apple court order. This is the device, FWIW, http://www.cellebrite.com/Mobile-Forensics/Products/ufed-touch

Quote:
"...the UFED Touch enables physical, file system, and logical extractions of all data and passwords, included deleted data, from the widest range of mobile devices.


The police are using this now. For nearly every device NOT running iOS 9+. The master key already existed. It just didn't work with the new iOS. So people are upset that the government wants to access iOS 9, but they were all good with iOS 8 and prior? And Android is ok too?

It's kind of like, you have a door with a lock but police can use the master key called a battering ram to gain entry. No one seems to mind that this is used in raids. So now, let's pretend a door manufacturer invents a battering-ram-proof technology. So police ask door manufacturer for a backdoor way through this battering-ram-proof door. Everyone is up in arms.

Door manufacturer says no, we can't, because if we do, you can get in to all of our doors.

Government finds a 3rd party to help them get in to battering-ram-proof doors.

The folks with arms in the air are now quiet. Huh?

Was it always really just about the door manufacturer or was it about privacy? If it was about privacy, people should be upset the government can work with a 3rd party to access your devices. They only seemed upset the government was trying to force Apple, Inc. to do it.

And DMR, if you trust Apple more than you trust the FBI, then you should have been a proponent of Apple working with the government to get access to the content rather than some Israeli 3rd-party firm or the government themselves.


Last edited by ringfinger on Fri Apr 01, 2016 7:00 am; edited 1 time in total
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ringfinger
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 6:58 am    Post subject:

24 wrote:
Yup. Apple doesn't have a discrete key into each phone individually, so if the government can now get into the one phone, they can now hack them all.


Sure. But they could and can (and do) hack in to nearly every other electronic device on the planet and no one seemed to mind because they understood that, with proper court orders or warrants, it is a necessary tool particularly in cases that involve digital forensic evidence.

The government has now accessed the shooter's iPhone 5C which, as you correctly assert, they then have the means to get in to anyone's iPhone 5C they have in possession.

So where is the backlash on the government working with a third party? It seemed folks only cared when it directly involved Apple, Inc.
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lakersken80
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 7:15 am    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
What some people are selectively ignoring is that Apple wasn't refusing to unlock one phone. Regardless of what the FBI requested in regards to one phone, the point is that Apple's engineers don't have the capability to hack a single phone. In order to circumvent their encryption and security provisions, they would need to alter their code in GENERAL. They are not able to provide a simple key to invade one phone. To do what the FBI requested would compromise all phones running iOS, because Apple's way in would require a reworking of the security built into the iOS.

The fact that some third party ALLEGEDLY found a way in is totally irrelevant to Apple's argument. And when it comes to this issue, I trust Apple's position on this WAY more than I would ever trust the FBI.


And what other folks are selectively ignoring, is that the FBI/Police can already access every other device. Your laptop, other phones, etc. There is a device made by the same company the government is working with now that police officers can keep in their cars and use with like 8,000 different devices.

This device was already in existence prior to the Apple court order. This is the device, FWIW, http://www.cellebrite.com/Mobile-Forensics/Products/ufed-touch

Quote:
"...the UFED Touch enables physical, file system, and logical extractions of all data and passwords, included deleted data, from the widest range of mobile devices.


The police are using this now. For nearly every device NOT running iOS 9+. The master key already existed. It just didn't work with the new iOS. So people are upset that the government wants to access iOS 9, but they were all good with iOS 8 and prior? And Android is ok too?

It's kind of like, you have a door with a lock but police can use the master key called a battering ram to gain entry. No one seems to mind that this is used in raids. So now, let's pretend a door manufacturer invents a battering-ram-proof technology. So police ask door manufacturer for a backdoor way through this battering-ram-proof door. Everyone is up in arms.

Door manufacturer says no, we can't, because if we do, you can get in to all of our doors.

Government finds a 3rd party to help them get in to battering-ram-proof doors.

The folks with arms in the air are now quiet. Huh?

Was it always really just about the door manufacturer or was it about privacy? If it was about privacy, people should be upset the government can work with a 3rd party to access your devices. They only seemed upset the government was trying to force Apple, Inc. to do it.

And DMR, if you trust Apple more than you trust the FBI, then you should have been a proponent of Apple working with the government to get access to the content rather than some Israeli 3rd-party firm or the government themselves.


The FBI got access to device via 3rd Party,which is what should have happened all along. The people were up in arms because the same manufacturers selling the device shouldn't be providing vulnerabilities to the government, that is collusion which is OK in dictatorships like China.
As far as people not caring anymore, its because Apple didn't budge on principle. The FBI got the information they wanted from the phone and now its up to Apple to fix or close the loophole.
I think after the Snowden revelations people are just more aware and wary of the government asking manufacturers to build backdoors. So maybe not much has changed, but I think people want some sense that there is a separation between law enforcement and industry. I think most people will realize that the FBI with all of its resources can break into any device they want, they just don't want the industry providing them with those tools.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 7:24 am    Post subject:

lakersken80 wrote:
The FBI got access to device via 3rd Party,which is what should have happened all along. The people were up in arms because the same manufacturers selling the device shouldn't be providing vulnerabilities to the government, that is collusion which is OK in dictatorships like China.
As far as people not caring anymore, its because Apple didn't budge on principle. The FBI got the information they wanted from the phone and now its up to Apple to fix or close the loophole.


If that is true, and I don't believe it is, then why were the people with their arms up, crying about privacy? If the people just wanted the government to work with a 3rd party and not Apple, then privacy is completely irrelevant, and forced compliance is the real issue. (And forced compliance is the real issue, for me anyway).

The funny thing in all of this, is that the people had their arms up, according to you, because the same manufacturers selling the device shouldn't be providing vulnerability to the government.

Yet, prior to the INFAMOUS court order, Apple had already been doing just that, via multiple court orders, for the government.

It only became a big deal when Apple decided it would be a good branding move to act as if their devices couldn't be accessed, which, just a few weeks after this whole ordeal, we have since learned it isn't true.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 8:11 am    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
DuncanIdaho wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
DuncanIdaho wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
DuncanIdaho wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
jonnybravo wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
And .... the third party company has hacked the phone successfully already and the government has the data.

http://www.engadget.com/2016/03/28/apple-s-encryption-battle-with-the-fbi-is-over-for-now/

Why isn't everyone panicking about master keys?

I think the freedom fighters got tired of this story already. Not even a couple months old! lol. How does one display so much outrage, only to so quickly display so much indifference? The world we live in now?


There's always a new cause of the day. Righteous or not, it's hard for the public to stay focused on any one topic when the reality is, as a whole, we go about our business, go to work, pay our bills, try to enjoy what free time we have. When the next hot topic comes along, we (and I am guilty of it too) climb on our soap box, rattle off our concerns, quickly move on to the next issue, rinse/repeat.


Yeah. I do think it interesting that the hooplah involved Apple. And we know how .... irrational people can get about things Apple. I doubt we'd have seen the same reaction had the shooter had a Windows phone. I suppose thats what irks me. Hiding behind issues like "privacy" when it is really just brand fandom.


Honestly though, it isn't about brand loyalty, it IS about privacy. At least for me.


Ok, but for those who are upset about privacy, why aren't they protesting that Jared Fogle's laptop was accessed without his permission in his criminal investigation? They just got a warrant / court order and pulled the contents.

Why isn't anyone outraged, at least not to the same extent, that the government is now accessing the SB shooter's phone?

Where is the crying out when police and federal agents knock down the door of someone's house on a warrant-backed raid, when they do a weapons search on a suspect, etc?


There's a difference between the government forcing a multinational corporation to build a backdoor into a hundred million phones, that could be accessed remotely by anyone, including foreign entities and hackers (after all, if there's a backdoor, it can be exploited by anyone), and using its own resources to break into a single phone.

I don't have a problem with Fogle's laptop, them breaking into the SB shooters phone, or any warrant-backed raid. They all had legal warrants, and they were all executed by the government. No private entity was coerced.

I mean, I see the difference here. Is there really no difference to you?


Wait. You're misunderstood. The government was never, at any time, even asking Apple to build a backdoor OS into a hundred million phones. They were asking Apple to build a backdoor OS in to a single phone (the SB shooters).

The "master key" fear, was that if the government could force Apple to do that for one phone, then, the same tactic COULD be used on any phone.

What is funny about that fear to me, is that the government already has a master key for just about everything else. They can gain access to laptop content through various devices, and they can get access to your home via a master key called a battering ram.

My only issue as it related to the Apple case, was of forced compliance. Not a fan of that. But anyone with "master key" and/or other privacy concerns doesn't understand they already have one for virtually everything else and we'd never had a problem with it so why the hooplah over iPhone and not Dell laptop?


No, I didn't misunderstand. The government was asking for a backdoor to a "single phone" but the only way to honor that request, according to Apple, was a backdoor for every phone. So in essence, the government was asking for a backdoor to every phone.

Anyway, this issue isn't over and we'll see it in the courts again in the future.


Except Apple was wrong or lying since the government has since accessed the shooter's iPhone. So no, what the government was asking, in essence, was NOT a backdoor to every phone. If you read the actual court order, there were many mentions that they were requesting ONLY access to the shooter's device and specifically requested that Apple take measures to provide access ONLY to that one device, even providing serial number and IMEI.

Here's the actual court order: https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/2714001/SB-Shooter-Order-Compelling-Apple-Asst-iPhone.pdf

Anyway, I don't think the issue is over. The government will just work with a 3rd party now to access content on devices just like they have been with every other device and physical location. It's all the same, which is why I thought it was funny people were freaking out just because it's Apple.


Dude you are 1000% wrong about this. The way the government accessed it was with a hardware hack. The Government was asking Apple for a software backdoor. A backdoor that would be accessible remotely. After the Snowden revelations, F THAT.

The government also did this with an older phone. Their hardware hack either won't work or will have to be different for newer phones.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 9:08 am    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
24 wrote:
Yup. Apple doesn't have a discrete key into each phone individually, so if the government can now get into the one phone, they can now hack them all.


Sure. But they could and can (and do) hack in to nearly every other electronic device on the planet and no one seemed to mind because they understood that, with proper court orders or warrants, it is a necessary tool particularly in cases that involve digital forensic evidence.

The government has now accessed the shooter's iPhone 5C which, as you correctly assert, they then have the means to get in to anyone's iPhone 5C they have in possession.

So where is the backlash on the government working with a third party? It seemed folks only cared when it directly involved Apple, Inc.


You're conflating two different things. First, the outrage is at the government for expecting the manufacturer to play ball (and the praise to Apple for, unlike companies like verizon, refusing). But second, there has been a lot of outrage of what the government is doing, it is just so entrenched and known now that there's an inevitability about it, so it only really comes up when they attempt to cross another barrier. I think, sadly, the general public accepts that big brother is snooping by any means available.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 10:09 am    Post subject:

Haven't really followed this story after the San Bernardino incident.

Is there really no way to unlock phones currently? I find that really surprising. I thought there were multiple how to videos on youtube on how to unlock a passcode protected iPhone? Is it because of the new version of iOS.

Also, aren't text messages, phone calls, etc easily accessible even without a phone?
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 11:06 am    Post subject:

Starting with the iphone 6 series, the encryption is on an external chip (Secure Enclave) so the attack vectors are not the same as they are on the earlier iphone 5 series, which were all software.

Quote:
Secure Enclave
The Secure Enclave is a coprocessor fabricated in the Apple A7 or later A-series
processor. It utilizes its own secure boot and personalized software update separate
from the application processor. It provides all cryptographic operations for Data
Protection key management and maintains the integrity of Data Protection even
if the kernel has been compromised.
The Secure Enclave uses encrypted memory and includes a hardware random
number generator. Its microkernel is based on the L4 family, with modifications by
Apple. Communication between the Secure Enclave and the application processor
is isolated to an interrupt-driven mailbox and shared memory data buffers.
Each Secure Enclave is provisioned during fabrication with its own UID (Unique ID)
that is not accessible to other parts of the system and is not known to Apple. When
the device starts up, an ephemeral key is created, entangled with its UID, and used
to encrypt the Secure Enclave’s portion of the device’s memory space.
Additionally, data that is saved to the file system by the Secure Enclave is encrypted
with a key entangled with the UID and an anti-replay counter.
The Secure Enclave is responsible for processing fingerprint data from the Touch
ID sensor, determining if there is a match against registered fingerprints, and then
enabling access or purchases on behalf of the user. Communication between the
processor and the Touch ID sensor takes place over a serial peripheral interface
bus. The processor forwards the data to the Secure Enclave but cannot read it. It’s
encrypted and authenticated with a session key that is negotiated using the device’s
shared key that is provisioned for the Touch ID sensor and the Secure Enclave. The
session key exchange uses AES key wrapping with both sides providing a random
key that establishes the session key and uses AES-CCM transport encryption.


https://www.apple.com/business/docs/iOS_Security_Guide.pdf
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 5:55 pm    Post subject:

Israeli firm 'helped FBI crack San Bernardino gunman's cell phone without Apple's help'

An Israeli company helped the FBI in unlocking the iPhone used by one of the San Bernardino, California shooters, according to reports.
Israel's Cellebrite, is a provider of mobile forensic software that says it does business with thousands of law enforcement and intelligence agencies, militaries and governments in more than 90 countries.
An official source told NBC News that the company had helped. Neither the FBI nor Cellebrite has confirmed the reports.
The FBI hacked into the iPhone used by gunman Syed Farook, who died with his wife in a gun battle with police after they killed 14 people in December in San Bernardino.
The iPhone, issued to Farook by his employer, the county health department, was found in a vehicle the day after the shooting.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3514875/Israeli-firm-helped-FBI-crack-San-Bernardino-gunman-s-cellphone-without-Apple-s-help.html
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 1:22 am    Post subject:

Quote:
The NSA hack proves Apple was right to fight the FBI

After the unprecedented breach of hacking tools and exploits stolen from the US National Security Agency's elite hacking unit, some privacy advocates see it as clear vindication of Apple in its fight with the FBI earlier this year.

Quote:
Apple: If we're forced to build a tool to hack iPhones, someone will steal it.
FBI: Nonsense.
Russia: We just published NSA's hacking tools
— Christopher Soghoian (@csoghoian) August 17, 2016


"The component of the government that is supposed to be absolutely best at keeping secrets didn't manage to keep this secret effectively," Nate Cardozo, a senior staff attorney with the Electronic Frontier Foundation, told Business Insider.

In February, a judge ordered Apple to help the FBI unlock an iPhone that was used by Syed Rizwan Farook, one of two attackers who killed 14 people in a December terrorist attack in San Bernardino, California. That order set off a vigorous debate between law-enforcement officials seeking evidence and technologists worried over broader implications for personal privacy.

While the company's legal team fought the order, Apple CEO Tim Cook published a letter arguing against being forced to build a so-called backdoor that would subvert the encryption that not only kept the shooter's phone secure, but also the smartphones of millions of other Apple users.

Most in the technology community rallied around Apple at the time, arguing that weakened encryption might help government investigators, but it would also make customers vulnerable to hackers.

Now, with a massive top-secret archive of some of the NSA's own exploits having been leaked online, it appears they were right.

"The NSA's stance on vulnerabilities seems to be based on the premise that secrets will never get out. That no one will ever discover the same bug. That no one will ever use the same bug. That there will never be a leak," Cardozo said. "We know for a fact, that at least in this case, that's not true."

http://www.businessinsider.com/nsa-hack-apple-fbi-2016-8


Looks like those of us who argued in this thread that back doors were a threat to everyone have been vindicated with the NSA being hacked and their exploits leaked.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 12:20 pm    Post subject:

The hack used to get into the shooter's phone has been leaked as part of a larger dump of phone hacks.

Quote:
Hacker Dumps iOS Cracking Tools Allegedly Stolen from Cellebrite

The hacker says this demonstrates that when organizations make hacking tools, those techniques will eventually find their way to the public.
In January, Motherboard reported that a hacker had stolen 900GB of data from mobile phone forensics company Cellebrite. The data suggested that Cellebrite had sold its phone cracking technology to oppressive regimes such as Turkey, the United Arab Emirates, and Russia.

Now the hacker responsible has publicly released a cache of files allegedly stolen from Cellebrite relating to Android and BlackBerry devices, and older iPhones, some of which may have been copied from publicly available phone cracking tools.

"The debate around backdoors is not going to go away, rather, its is almost certainly going to get more intense as we lurch toward a more authoritarian society," the hacker told Motherboard in an online chat.

"It's important to demonstrate that when you create these tools, they will make it out. History should make that clear," they continued.

https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/hacker-dumps-ios-cracking-tools-allegedly-stolen-from-cellebrite


So turns out those of us who argued that back doors or crippled security of ANY kind were a threat to everyone were absolutely right. If this had been a back door the fallout would be even worse.

I'll quote the quote from my last post again.

Quote:
Apple: If we're forced to build a tool to hack iPhones, someone will steal it.
FBI: Nonsense.
Russia: We just published NSA's hacking tools
— Christopher Soghoian (@csoghoian) August 17, 2016


WOOPS

Quote:
The government suggests this tool could only be used once, on one phone. But that’s simply not true. Once created, the technique could be used over and over again, on any number of devices. In the physical world, it would be the equivalent of a master key, capable of opening hundreds of millions of locks — from restaurants and banks to stores and homes. No reasonable person would find that acceptable.

The government is asking Apple to hack our own users and undermine decades of security advancements that protect our customers — including tens of millions of American citizens — from sophisticated hackers and cybercriminals. The same engineers who built strong encryption into the iPhone to protect our users would, ironically, be ordered to weaken those protections and make our users less safe.

We can find no precedent for an American company being forced to expose its customers to a greater risk of attack. For years, cryptologists and national security experts have been warning against weakening encryption. Doing so would hurt only the well-meaning and law-abiding citizens who rely on companies like Apple to protect their data. Criminals and bad actors will still encrypt, using tools that are readily available to them.

Tim Cook, Customer Letter from February 16, 2016
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 1:07 pm    Post subject:

in re: ^^^ ...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/fbi-paid-professional-hackers-one-time-fee-to-crack-san-bernardino-iphone/2016/04/12/5397814a-00de-11e6-9d36-33d198ea26c5_story.html?utm_term=.395af6550b53

Given the foregoing, haven't we already debunked the wishful thinking by some that Cellebrite played a role in the successful hacking of the San Bernardino device? The revelations above provide ample reason for concern, but for the sheer sake of accuracy, I don't think directly connecting a data dump of Cellebrite files with the heated privacy discussion last year hits the mark ...
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 1:10 pm    Post subject:

the association wrote:
in re: ^^^ ...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/fbi-paid-professional-hackers-one-time-fee-to-crack-san-bernardino-iphone/2016/04/12/5397814a-00de-11e6-9d36-33d198ea26c5_story.html?utm_term=.395af6550b53

Given the foregoing, haven't we already debunked the wishful thinking by some that Cellebrite played a role in the successful hacking of the San Bernardino device? The revelations above provide ample reason for concern, but for the sheer sake of accuracy, I don't think directly connecting a data dump of Cellebrite files with the heated privacy discussion last year hits the mark ...


My point is valid whether it was a one-off hack or a group of hacks. Eventually they find their way into the wild, which is what made the FBI's remarks (and the government's request) look so ridiculous.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 1:16 pm    Post subject:

DuncanIdaho wrote:
the association wrote:
in re: ^^^ ...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/fbi-paid-professional-hackers-one-time-fee-to-crack-san-bernardino-iphone/2016/04/12/5397814a-00de-11e6-9d36-33d198ea26c5_story.html?utm_term=.395af6550b53

Given the foregoing, haven't we already debunked the wishful thinking by some that Cellebrite played a role in the successful hacking of the San Bernardino device? The revelations above provide ample reason for concern, but for the sheer sake of accuracy, I don't think directly connecting a data dump of Cellebrite files with the heated privacy discussion last year hits the mark ...


My point is valid whether it was a one-off hack or a group of hacks. Eventually they find their way into the wild, which is what made the FBI's remarks (and the government's request) look so ridiculous.


Yeah, agree on that ...

(rule of thumb: honesty and transparency is an opt-in for government officials, not an opt-out ... of course, it should be neither.)
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