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Bard207
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Joined: 08 Jan 2013
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 Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:07 am Post subject: |
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| MJST wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | Cap's Elbow wrote: | | The Melo for Bynum deal was never offered. Most likely it was a made up story by Bousard. |
Most likely something Broussard fabricated or ESPN fabricated.
Because if the offer on the table was Bynum for Carmelo and us keeping Gasol... we're likely going to do that lol.
Essentially makes our lineup
Derek Fisher
Kobe Bryant
Ron Artest
Carmelo Anthony
Pau Gasol
I think we'd have been happy to rock with that for a while. |
And yet, we'd be having the same discussion today about where did it all fall apart?
It fell apart the moment we decided we needed to go younger. But that was a necessity. |
Probably. But the question becomes if we'd get another ring or not in that process. Because assume we did that deal for Carmelo, and then the next off-season made the Nash/D12 deal but instead moved Gasol.
Suddenly the discussion would be a bit different.
Suddenly we'd have a lineup of
Nash
Kobe
Artest
Carmelo
Dwight
And then suddenly Kobe has a legitimate 2nd scoring option next to him, and even with Nash's injury has someone to take the load off him offensively, and then possibly doesn't go down with injury and we're possibly a solid top 3-4 team in the West.
But we'd be hitting the restart button about now or last year, because Kobe may be more likely to retire sooner with his 6th if a 7th doesn't seem possible.
So we'd likely be looking at having just Carmelo this year, with Kobe retiring and Dwight likely leaving a year earlier. So we'd be looking at Josh Jackson this year, instead of looking at Russell, Randle, Ingram, the past years as our core.
We likely still have Clarkson and Larry Nance Jr. But we no longer have Russell, Ingram or Randle. |
Nance?
Kobe + Melo + Nash would be in the area of $55 million.
The salary cap for the 2014 - 2015 season was slightly over $63 million, so how would Lin's $14.9 million be absorbed? |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 11:07 am Post subject: |
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The past...is just the past.
Aren't folks looking forward to the future?
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Treble Clef
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| Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 11:46 am Post subject: |
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| dont_be_a_wuss wrote: | | Complete and unmitigated disaster. Even after the veto we were a second round playoff team. The decision to go with Mike D'Antoni over Phil Jackson was the real critical turning point for this franchise. There is no coming back from a blunder like that. |
I saw the turning point happen while Phil was still here. The team was old, Phil was old. They needed a refreshing but they were too deep with Jerry and Kobe to leave "win now" mode and make the necessary changes. The home run attempts were incredible but they ultimately fell short. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 11:52 am Post subject: |
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I'm obviously grateful for Phil the Coach and his role in bringing 5 rings to the Lakers.
However, not sure he would have been the panacea some make him out to be, even with Nash/Howard. Nash probably gets hurt; Howard still scoffs at Kobe and maybe a lesser role in the Triangle.
While MDA was a disaster, not sure Phil would have brought us closer to contention either.
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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What I've seen in the past 5 years is that Mitch was maybe not as good a GM we thought he was, because he had Kobe in prime to work with and Phil Jackson playng shadow GM. Once Kobe no longer was able to carry the team and Phil retired, the Lakers have made a number of poor moves.
This is Mitch's best offseason in ages, and yet what's he got to show for it - Mosgov or Deng or Yi are our best signing. Jerry West had 5 years from 91 when Magic was forced to retire (without really any contingency since it was abrupt) and within 5 years the Lakers had gotten to Shaq/Kobe - transitioned from Magic.
Mitch is good, but maybe not the great GM some thought he was a few years back. Jerry West may have spoiled the Lakers GM/top executive position just like any SG will pail in comparison to Kobe or all the coaches post-Phil have massively failed or pailed in comparison.
Jim? Eh. Neither a huge problem nor an asset. What true value added does he bring? Dr Buss added value. Jim is meh. Neither here or there. That leaves me back to what I've come to accept for a while now. Lakers are just like any other NBA team now. There is nothing about them moving forward that puts them in that extra special position. Without the brilliance of Jerry West without ownership like Dr Buss and without a coach like Phil, I don't see why or how great players will become Lakers any time soon. And that was the Laker standard. It appauls me that getting talented young kids from college is now seen as some huge prize in terms of proving yourself as an executive. Any idiot can tank and land some good picks. Now putting Shaq and Kobe together, maginificent.
If all we're aiming for is being a playoff team in the near future - hey it's all good. Mitch and Jim have done well. If you hold them to the standard Jerry Buss and Jerry West were held to, absolutely not. It should be unacceptable that the Lakers miss the playoffs 4 straight years and it's fine and dandy with regards to the FO. I don't see that as an acceptable standard for the Lakers. Not the Lakers identity Dr Buss had worked hard to establish. When you reach a point where you've lowered fan base exepecations to "Ok lets just try to be decent and have 30-35 wins" in year 4 of a rebuild, that's just not something I thought the Lakers under Dr Buss would have ever accepted. |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 6:50 am Post subject: |
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| AshesToAshes wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | pjiddy wrote: | | As time goes on, the assumption that the Lakers would have won a title, let alone many more titles with Kobe/Dwight/CP3 looks more and more like just that. Because CP3 was here, Kobe would've respected Dwight? Dwight wouldn't have been a (bleep)? Kobe couldn't play off-ball with Nash, but he would've with CP3? Or Would CP3 spot up in the corner? We still would've had no bench and a heavy minute load on 3 guys who all had injury problems that year. |
Not to mention, wouldn't we be delaying the inevitable anyway? We'd have an aging and expensive Chris Paul on the roster, and who knows what other veteran and now older player we would have had to acquire to get the job done.
When you have significant resources tied up in a small number of elite players, eventually, the cycle of life happens and you have to start over. The only way that would have been avoidable is to not have significant resources tied up in a small number of elite players a la San Antonio who is an exception, not a rule. |
i'd be inclined to disagree. The original plan would have worked.
with both kobe and cp3; DH would be 1c and might not have gone full madonna mode and push his ultra-post-big eyes set on being alpha-male mentality.
Also would lessen the kobe/DH 2man game because what we needed at that time was to get the ball out of kobe's busted hands.
Also with those 3 (and no injuries) we're recruiting good role players and making playoff runs; kobe dragged that team into the playoffs himself already so this is far from a "stretch". that's a roster that might enjoy DH antics; the franchise would have been in cp3's hands. that drastically changes the outlook/judgement of DH.
for example.. MWP was entertaining. That wouldn't be the case if he was perceived as our next franchise player. |
Here's the thing. There is no scenario in which you're recruiting good role players along side Kobe AND developing and hoarding young assets.
You have to do the latter at some point, right?
Which means at some point, you have to suck for a while. There was no getting around being a lottery team for a few years. It was really just a matter of when.
So my point is that what we're going through right now was inevitable. We could have delayed the inevitable, accelerated it, but either way, this was happening at some point in the 2013 - 2018 or so time range. |
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Vancouver Fan
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Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Posts: 17740
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| Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 7:10 am Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | AshesToAshes wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | pjiddy wrote: | | As time goes on, the assumption that the Lakers would have won a title, let alone many more titles with Kobe/Dwight/CP3 looks more and more like just that. Because CP3 was here, Kobe would've respected Dwight? Dwight wouldn't have been a (bleep)? Kobe couldn't play off-ball with Nash, but he would've with CP3? Or Would CP3 spot up in the corner? We still would've had no bench and a heavy minute load on 3 guys who all had injury problems that year. |
Not to mention, wouldn't we be delaying the inevitable anyway? We'd have an aging and expensive Chris Paul on the roster, and who knows what other veteran and now older player we would have had to acquire to get the job done.
When you have significant resources tied up in a small number of elite players, eventually, the cycle of life happens and you have to start over. The only way that would have been avoidable is to not have significant resources tied up in a small number of elite players a la San Antonio who is an exception, not a rule. |
i'd be inclined to disagree. The original plan would have worked.
with both kobe and cp3; DH would be 1c and might not have gone full madonna mode and push his ultra-post-big eyes set on being alpha-male mentality.
Also would lessen the kobe/DH 2man game because what we needed at that time was to get the ball out of kobe's busted hands.
Also with those 3 (and no injuries) we're recruiting good role players and making playoff runs; kobe dragged that team into the playoffs himself already so this is far from a "stretch". that's a roster that might enjoy DH antics; the franchise would have been in cp3's hands. that drastically changes the outlook/judgement of DH.
for example.. MWP was entertaining. That wouldn't be the case if he was perceived as our next franchise player. |
Here's the thing. There is no scenario in which you're recruiting good role players along side Kobe AND developing and hoarding young assets.
You have to do the latter at some point, right?
Which means at some point, you have to suck for a while. There was no getting around being a lottery team for a few years. It was really just a matter of when.
So my point is that what we're going through right now was inevitable. We could have delayed the inevitable, accelerated it, but either way, this was happening at some point in the 2013 - 2018 or so time range. |
Yes.
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ReaListik
Star Player
Joined: 08 Jun 2008
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| Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 9:57 am Post subject: |
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I guess every year the Lakers win under 30 games and miss the playoffs people will continue to write articles about this.
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venturalakersfan
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Joined: 14 Apr 2001
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Location: The Gold Coast
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| Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 10:05 am Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | What I've seen in the past 5 years is that Mitch was maybe not as good a GM we thought he was, because he had Kobe in prime to work with and Phil Jackson playng shadow GM. Once Kobe no longer was able to carry the team and Phil retired, the Lakers have made a number of poor moves.
This is Mitch's best offseason in ages, and yet what's he got to show for it - Mosgov or Deng or Yi are our best signing. Jerry West had 5 years from 91 when Magic was forced to retire (without really any contingency since it was abrupt) and within 5 years the Lakers had gotten to Shaq/Kobe - transitioned from Magic.
Mitch is good, but maybe not the great GM some thought he was a few years back. Jerry West may have spoiled the Lakers GM/top executive position just like any SG will pail in comparison to Kobe or all the coaches post-Phil have massively failed or pailed in comparison.
Jim? Eh. Neither a huge problem nor an asset. What true value added does he bring? Dr Buss added value. Jim is meh. Neither here or there. That leaves me back to what I've come to accept for a while now. Lakers are just like any other NBA team now. There is nothing about them moving forward that puts them in that extra special position. Without the brilliance of Jerry West without ownership like Dr Buss and without a coach like Phil, I don't see why or how great players will become Lakers any time soon. And that was the Laker standard. It appauls me that getting talented young kids from college is now seen as some huge prize in terms of proving yourself as an executive. Any idiot can tank and land some good picks. Now putting Shaq and Kobe together, maginificent.
If all we're aiming for is being a playoff team in the near future - hey it's all good. Mitch and Jim have done well. If you hold them to the standard Jerry Buss and Jerry West were held to, absolutely not. It should be unacceptable that the Lakers miss the playoffs 4 straight years and it's fine and dandy with regards to the FO. I don't see that as an acceptable standard for the Lakers. Not the Lakers identity Dr Buss had worked hard to establish. When you reach a point where you've lowered fan base exepecations to "Ok lets just try to be decent and have 30-35 wins" in year 4 of a rebuild, that's just not something I thought the Lakers under Dr Buss would have ever accepted. |
Phil was never a shadow GM, in fact the team improved when the FO moved away from getting "Phil" players and instead bringing in good NBA players. Phil never wanted Bynum, but he sure benefitted from that selection. The romantic concept that the Lakers never struggled under Dr. Buss I find funny, they did, just like every other NBA team. Once the league evened the financial rules the Dr. Buss ways were out of date. The current FO has realized that and are responding accordingly.
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venturalakersfan
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Joined: 14 Apr 2001
Posts: 144474
Location: The Gold Coast
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| Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 10:06 am Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | AshesToAshes wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | pjiddy wrote: | | As time goes on, the assumption that the Lakers would have won a title, let alone many more titles with Kobe/Dwight/CP3 looks more and more like just that. Because CP3 was here, Kobe would've respected Dwight? Dwight wouldn't have been a (bleep)? Kobe couldn't play off-ball with Nash, but he would've with CP3? Or Would CP3 spot up in the corner? We still would've had no bench and a heavy minute load on 3 guys who all had injury problems that year. |
Not to mention, wouldn't we be delaying the inevitable anyway? We'd have an aging and expensive Chris Paul on the roster, and who knows what other veteran and now older player we would have had to acquire to get the job done.
When you have significant resources tied up in a small number of elite players, eventually, the cycle of life happens and you have to start over. The only way that would have been avoidable is to not have significant resources tied up in a small number of elite players a la San Antonio who is an exception, not a rule. |
i'd be inclined to disagree. The original plan would have worked.
with both kobe and cp3; DH would be 1c and might not have gone full madonna mode and push his ultra-post-big eyes set on being alpha-male mentality.
Also would lessen the kobe/DH 2man game because what we needed at that time was to get the ball out of kobe's busted hands.
Also with those 3 (and no injuries) we're recruiting good role players and making playoff runs; kobe dragged that team into the playoffs himself already so this is far from a "stretch". that's a roster that might enjoy DH antics; the franchise would have been in cp3's hands. that drastically changes the outlook/judgement of DH.
for example.. MWP was entertaining. That wouldn't be the case if he was perceived as our next franchise player. |
Here's the thing. There is no scenario in which you're recruiting good role players along side Kobe AND developing and hoarding young assets.
You have to do the latter at some point, right?
Which means at some point, you have to suck for a while. There was no getting around being a lottery team for a few years. It was really just a matter of when.
So my point is that what we're going through right now was inevitable. We could have delayed the inevitable, accelerated it, but either way, this was happening at some point in the 2013 - 2018 or so time range. |
I agree, we rode a crest for almost 20 years, no other team has done that. Everyone has to reload, we were just lucky to not have to do so as often as other teams. And some have been doing it for their entire existence.
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LakerLanny
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Joined: 24 Oct 2001
Posts: 47581
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| Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 10:14 am Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | The current FO has realized that and are responding accordingly. |
The jury is very much out on that.
There are other teams making the playoffs losing multiple starters and making the playoffs the next season. Yet the Lakers are seemingly locked into a 10 year rebuild mode.
This season needs to see major major improvement or this front office needs to be shown the door.
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venturalakersfan
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Location: The Gold Coast
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| Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 10:18 am Post subject: |
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| LakerLanny wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | The current FO has realized that and are responding accordingly. |
The jury is very much out on that.
There are other teams making the playoffs losing multiple starters and making the playoffs the next season. Yet the Lakers are seemingly locked into a 10 year rebuild mode.
This season needs to see major major improvement or this front office needs to be shown the door. |
So tell me which of those other teams competed for titles for almost a 20-year period and won 5 in 7 visits? And ended up paying max dollars for guys who were way beyond their primes as a result (Kobe, Pau)? If you are content with "making the playoffs" then you would expect a different route than a team expecting contention. If that minimal effort is what you are excited about, then you won't appreciate what the Lakers are doing now.
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LakerLanny
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| Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 10:30 am Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: |
So tell me which of those other teams competed for titles for almost a 20-year period and won 5 in 7 visits? And ended up paying max dollars for guys who were way beyond their primes as a result (Kobe, Pau)? If you are content with "making the playoffs" then you would expect a different route than a team expecting contention. If that minimal effort is what you are excited about, then you won't appreciate what the Lakers are doing now. |
I think you are changing the point a bit. I am saying that based on what the team has done the last three years (not the prior 20) that it is time for them to show improvement on the court in a major way.
I don't think that is asking a lot coming off the two worst seasons in franchise history,we have to have some expectations of winning...not just "development" if you truly think this group is future championship contenders which frankly I don't see.
As far as making the playoffs in the West being "minimal effort" I will just say I disagree, it is very hard to make the playoffs in the West and if you ever expect to contend for a championship making the playoffs first and losing is likely what needs to happen. Very rare to go from lottery to title without the steps in between so not sure of your point there.
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kikanga
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| Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 10:32 am Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | What I've seen in the past 5 years is that Mitch was maybe not as good a GM we thought he was, because he had Kobe in prime to work with and Phil Jackson playng shadow GM. Once Kobe no longer was able to carry the team and Phil retired, the Lakers have made a number of poor moves.
This is Mitch's best offseason in ages, and yet what's he got to show for it - Mosgov or Deng or Yi are our best signing. Jerry West had 5 years from 91 when Magic was forced to retire (without really any contingency since it was abrupt) and within 5 years the Lakers had gotten to Shaq/Kobe - transitioned from Magic.
Mitch is good, but maybe not the great GM some thought he was a few years back. Jerry West may have spoiled the Lakers GM/top executive position just like any SG will pail in comparison to Kobe or all the coaches post-Phil have massively failed or pailed in comparison.
Jim? Eh. Neither a huge problem nor an asset. What true value added does he bring? Dr Buss added value. Jim is meh. Neither here or there. That leaves me back to what I've come to accept for a while now. Lakers are just like any other NBA team now. There is nothing about them moving forward that puts them in that extra special position. Without the brilliance of Jerry West without ownership like Dr Buss and without a coach like Phil, I don't see why or how great players will become Lakers any time soon. And that was the Laker standard. It appauls me that getting talented young kids from college is now seen as some huge prize in terms of proving yourself as an executive. Any idiot can tank and land some good picks. Now putting Shaq and Kobe together, maginificent.
If all we're aiming for is being a playoff team in the near future - hey it's all good. Mitch and Jim have done well. If you hold them to the standard Jerry Buss and Jerry West were held to, absolutely not. It should be unacceptable that the Lakers miss the playoffs 4 straight years and it's fine and dandy with regards to the FO. I don't see that as an acceptable standard for the Lakers. Not the Lakers identity Dr Buss had worked hard to establish. When you reach a point where you've lowered fan base exepecations to "Ok lets just try to be decent and have 30-35 wins" in year 4 of a rebuild, that's just not something I thought the Lakers under Dr Buss would have ever accepted. |
Agree with everything you're saying.
And it pisses me off, the last few season we've pretty much been in the same boat as Philly (bottomdweller). And we've been trying to win while Sam Hinkie was trying to lose games.
It's like running a race as hard as you can but tying in last place with a guy who just decided to walk it. Embarrassing.
But I'm going to stay positive, since there is nothing to gain getting wrapped up in anger (what I used to do). Just hoping by the 2017-2018 season or 2018-2019 season we can get out of the bottom of the league.
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 10:48 am Post subject: |
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| LakerLanny wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: |
So tell me which of those other teams competed for titles for almost a 20-year period and won 5 in 7 visits? And ended up paying max dollars for guys who were way beyond their primes as a result (Kobe, Pau)? If you are content with "making the playoffs" then you would expect a different route than a team expecting contention. If that minimal effort is what you are excited about, then you won't appreciate what the Lakers are doing now. |
I think you are changing the point a bit. I am saying that based on what the team has done the last three years (not the prior 20) that it is time for them to show improvement on the court in a major way.
I don't think that is asking a lot coming off the two worst seasons in franchise history,we have to have some expectations of winning...not just "development" if you truly think this group is future championship contenders which frankly I don't see.
As far as making the playoffs in the West being "minimal effort" I will just say I disagree, it is very hard to make the playoffs in the West and if you ever expect to contend for a championship making the playoffs first and losing is likely what needs to happen. Very rare to go from lottery to title without the steps in between so not sure of your point there. |
Ignoring the previous 20 and concentrating on the past 3 is being dishonest. The last 3 are a direct result of the previous 20. That is my point in this entire thread, I don't see this as a great disappointment, it is just a part of evolution. No team stays on top forever, to expect that is unrealistic. They tore things down when Magic retired and it took another 7 seasons before they were serious contenders. We are in year 1 of our most recent superstar retiring. The FO doesn't want to become the Mavs and shoot for the second round as the best they can do, they are looking at building something more long term. It might work or it might not, but they aren't short circuiting the rebuild.
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 10:59 am Post subject: |
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Since when is it fair to take a myopic 3-4 year snapshot of a franchise while wholly ignoring 20-30 years of success? Context matters. Goes to show how high we were as a franchise and how hard it is to get to that level particularly post Kobe.
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tox
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| Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 11:14 am Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: |
I agree, we rode a crest for almost 20 years, no other team has done that. Everyone has to reload, we were just lucky to not have to do so as often as other teams. And some have been doing it for their entire existence. |
Spurs? |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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When Jerry West left and everything was focused on Phil Jackson for success.
Then Phil Jackson left.
Jerry West was the franchise's identity.
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Theseus
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| Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Have you guys realized that espn isn't journalism yet? Its a business that wants to keep people tuning in. Spewing vitriol about the Lakers is their bread and butter. I'd like us to get away from buying into this nonsense altogether |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Shlumpledink wrote: | | Have you guys realized that espn isn't journalism yet? Its a business that wants to keep people tuning in. Spewing vitriol about the Lakers is their bread and butter. I'd like us to get away from buying into this nonsense altogether |
No journalist wants to tune people out. |
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greenfrog
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| Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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| tox wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: |
I agree, we rode a crest for almost 20 years, no other team has done that. Everyone has to reload, we were just lucky to not have to do so as often as other teams. And some have been doing it for their entire existence. |
Spurs? |
A great example of a team that realized they needed to change with the times instead of fighting it. |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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| greenfrog wrote: | | tox wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: |
I agree, we rode a crest for almost 20 years, no other team has done that. Everyone has to reload, we were just lucky to not have to do so as often as other teams. And some have been doing it for their entire existence. |
Spurs? |
A great example of a team that realized they needed to change with the times instead of fighting it. |
That model works with a guy like Duncan. Not with Kobe. Thats not to say one model is necessarily better than the other. |
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JUST-MING
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| Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | When Jerry West left and everything was focused on Phil Jackson for success.
Then Phil Jackson left.
Jerry West was the franchise's identity. |
This is the answer. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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| greenfrog wrote: | | tox wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: |
I agree, we rode a crest for almost 20 years, no other team has done that. Everyone has to reload, we were just lucky to not have to do so as often as other teams. And some have been doing it for their entire existence. |
Spurs? |
A great example of a team that realized they needed to change with the times instead of fighting it. |
I mean if we could have convinced all our core players to take way below market value deals...
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From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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Vancouver Fan
Franchise Player
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Posts: 17740
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| Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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| JUST-MING wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | When Jerry West left and everything was focused on Phil Jackson for success.
Then Phil Jackson left.
Jerry West was the franchise's identity. |
This is the answer. |
Thanks Phil!
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Music is my medicine |
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