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Inspector Gadget
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 Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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| KindCrippler2000 wrote: | | KBH wrote: | | KindCrippler2000 wrote: | | Inspector Gadget wrote: | | KBH wrote: | | Inspector Gadget wrote: | | KBH wrote: | | ainsley wrote: | | Kukoc was a much better ball handler and passer |
Came here to say this. Toni was basically a point forward while Yi is a stretch 4 or 5. |
That's why he's closer to Mirza Teletovic or Myers Leonard then he is to Kukoc, Yi diffinitely needs to bulk up a lil bit but I don't think he's some sort of Ryan Kelly type, he is diffinitely way better then some of the garbage we had in recent years like Boozer/Kelly/Sacre/Price. |
Well, no one said Yi was Ryan Kelly level. I just don't see many similarities in Kukoc and Yi's games other than height. |
And being able to stretch the floor is probably why OP thought they were similar.
I still stand by that Yi will likely end up playing the Teletovic or Montiejunas role for the Lakers, which is a talent upgrade on the roster. |
I'm looking at it more from a system-oriented perspective. Phil's system played to Kukoc's strength as a stretch big and we saw how he thrived with the level of spacing - in that he was able to take advantage of holes in the defense, and also stretch the floor when needed. In the same vein, I see Luke's system maximizing Yi's strengths. I drew the comparison because I feel like both have comparable level of mobility as bigs - they can do similar things on the court. I don't expect Yi to get exploited defensively as well. Assuming Yi's working on his ballhandling, I can see his play being more impactful than previously thought. I wasn't high on the signing, but I'm hoping Yi will be a surprise. |
If you're speaking that generally, then you could compare Yi to almost any stretch four. Also, Yi would have to significantly improve his ball handling to even be comparable to Toni in that respect. Toni was basically a 6'11'' guard, and his ball handling reflected that. Lamar Odom is a much closer comparison to Toni than Yi, and I wouldn't say Yi is anything like Lamar either. |
I think that's the expectation in Luke's system, which is why I think Yi will end up pushing the tempo when needed. One component of Luke's offense is that the big will have to rebound and push the ball before opposing defenses set up. Larry also talked a bit about it and mentioned that he's been trying to improve his ballhandling for that purpose. Even going off the scrimmage footage, we saw Zach Auguste doing the same.
I also don't think Yi plays like a traditional stretch 4 today - he actually moves a bit more like a perimeter player than a big. He's agile, quick for a player his height. You can see him anticipating passes, going for steals and then running the full court to score. He's also shown ability break down defenses and kick out to the open man - we saw some of this in his recent olympic gig and even against guys like Draymond Green.
I don't think the Guangdong Southern Tigers utilized him as a traditional big. I don't know if 4 years of seasoning in China changed his game, but I do think he will be more adaptive and receptive - just because he has so much experience overseas. The NBA is obviously a different creature, but I think we have yet to see what Yi brings to the table in that aspect.
He'll never be the passer Toni was, but I think he will demonstrate more perimeter skills than originally advertised. |
Your post demonstrates why ESPN solely had a article on Yi and the modern game utilizing his game and strengths, I honestly think there is a very good chance the signing pans out even though there is no long term road block. |
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HOF Rookie
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| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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No offense but I'm not sure you saw both play. Toni could do a bit of everything, and was effectively a point forward.
Yi is a guy that couldn't hack it in the league, though we will see how he fares this time around. . Toni was a vital cog in multiple championships. |
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Laker_Dynasty_01
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| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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Bit off topic, but wasn't Michael Beasley the CBA MVP? And wasn't he playing in Summer League trying to keep his spot in the NBA?
If $8 million in non-guaranteed money is the best offer Yi received, he may or may not be good enough to stick in the NBA. No other team offered him MLE money in a league where Ryan Anderson gets $20 million per year. This was a business decision and insurance for Mozgov. If Mozgov is still good enough to play 25 minutes, Yi may decide to go home for similar money and more playing time. |
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greenfrog
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| Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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| HOF Rookie wrote: | No offense but I'm not sure you saw both play. Toni could do a bit of everything, and was effectively a point forward.
Yi is a guy that couldn't hack it in the league, though we will see how he fares this time around. . Toni was a vital cog in multiple championships. |
This. Kukoc was Pippen with terrible defense for that team. I agree that Yi will do the last part. |
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KBH
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| Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 7:37 am Post subject: |
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| KindCrippler2000 wrote: | | KBH wrote: | | KindCrippler2000 wrote: | | Inspector Gadget wrote: | | KBH wrote: | | Inspector Gadget wrote: | | KBH wrote: | | ainsley wrote: | | Kukoc was a much better ball handler and passer |
Came here to say this. Toni was basically a point forward while Yi is a stretch 4 or 5. |
That's why he's closer to Mirza Teletovic or Myers Leonard then he is to Kukoc, Yi diffinitely needs to bulk up a lil bit but I don't think he's some sort of Ryan Kelly type, he is diffinitely way better then some of the garbage we had in recent years like Boozer/Kelly/Sacre/Price. |
Well, no one said Yi was Ryan Kelly level. I just don't see many similarities in Kukoc and Yi's games other than height. |
And being able to stretch the floor is probably why OP thought they were similar.
I still stand by that Yi will likely end up playing the Teletovic or Montiejunas role for the Lakers, which is a talent upgrade on the roster. |
I'm looking at it more from a system-oriented perspective. Phil's system played to Kukoc's strength as a stretch big and we saw how he thrived with the level of spacing - in that he was able to take advantage of holes in the defense, and also stretch the floor when needed. In the same vein, I see Luke's system maximizing Yi's strengths. I drew the comparison because I feel like both have comparable level of mobility as bigs - they can do similar things on the court. I don't expect Yi to get exploited defensively as well. Assuming Yi's working on his ballhandling, I can see his play being more impactful than previously thought. I wasn't high on the signing, but I'm hoping Yi will be a surprise. |
If you're speaking that generally, then you could compare Yi to almost any stretch four. Also, Yi would have to significantly improve his ball handling to even be comparable to Toni in that respect. Toni was basically a 6'11'' guard, and his ball handling reflected that. Lamar Odom is a much closer comparison to Toni than Yi, and I wouldn't say Yi is anything like Lamar either. |
I think that's the expectation in Luke's system, which is why I think Yi will end up pushing the tempo when needed. One component of Luke's offense is that the big will have to rebound and push the ball before opposing defenses set up. Larry also talked a bit about it and mentioned that he's been trying to improve his ballhandling for that purpose. Even going off the scrimmage footage, we saw Zach Auguste doing the same.
I also don't think Yi plays like a traditional stretch 4 today - he actually moves a bit more like a perimeter player than a big. He's agile, quick for a player his height. You can see him anticipating passes, going for steals and then running the full court to score. He's also shown ability break down defenses and kick out to the open man - we saw some of this in his recent olympic gig and even against guys like Draymond Green.
I don't think the Guangdong Southern Tigers utilized him as a traditional big. I don't know if 4 years of seasoning in China changed his game, but I do think he will be more adaptive and receptive - just because he has so much experience overseas. The NBA is obviously a different creature, but I think we have yet to see what Yi brings to the table in that aspect.
He'll never be the passer Toni was, but I think he will demonstrate more perimeter skills than originally advertised. |
Luke's system might help put Yi in position to succeed by playing to his strengths, but Yi has never displayed the ball handling, passing or vision that Toni had. Which is the difference. There's much more to playing like Toni Kukoc than grabbing a rebound and pushing the ball up the floor. Like I said earlier, Toni was essentially a point forward and a guard in a 6'11'' body. No system can give you this skill set unless you already have those tools. And Yi hasn't demonstrated that he does. This isn't to say Yi can't be a contributor (we won't know for a bit longer), but that there are few similarities between his game and Toni's. |
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bigshots2003
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| Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 9:24 am Post subject: |
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The team is trying to put players with the same skill sets that Luke had in GS. Yi is obviously going to play the Mo Speights role. Big man that can play spot minutes at the stretch 5. More likely at the top of the key then the 3.
Yi's game hardly compares to Toni. |
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KindCrippler2000
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Joined: 02 May 2003
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| Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 9:43 am Post subject: |
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| bigshots2003 wrote: | The team is trying to put players with the same skill sets that Luke had in GS. Yi is obviously going to play the Mo Speights role. Big man that can play spot minutes at the stretch 5. More likely at the top of the key then the 3.
Yi's game hardly compares to Toni. |
Because of Yi's unique skill set, I think it's difficult to say he will play the Speights role. Speights could stretch the floor with his shooting, but he was a truck mobility-wise. He had difficulty getting up and down the court, and he wasn't able to break down defenses the way Yi could in China/olympics. Re-watching Yi's olympic stint, he definitely showed me more perimeter skills than I thought he had, which I why I have a difficult time finding a good comp for him.
I think Del Harris provided a pretty fair assessment of his game in this article:
| Quote: | Harris said Yi's ability to play both center and power forward positions could flourish under Walton, who was formerly with the Golden State Warriors, the NBA's poster boys for today's small-ball style.
"His versatility will serve him well, and Luke will know how to mix with his outside-inside skill combination," Harris said. "They need what he is capable of doing -- great runner, excellent mix on offense and the potential to be a defensive factor. And Yi is still young himself for a 7-footer."
Harris said the current trend of NBA play is also favorable to Yi's future, as foreign-born big men who can pass and attack from the perimeter have become increasingly popular.
"The talent of these big players actually changed the complexion of the game due to these unique talents," he said. "Teams seek this type of player even more than the tall inside players, unless that player can truly dominate inside as a defender or consistent low-post scorer or passer." |
Perhaps we have yet to see the best of Yi? It's unknown how his perimeter skill set will fit the modern game. I think he has the capacity to do a lot more than be a stretch 4/5. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 9:49 am Post subject: |
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| bigshots2003 wrote: | The team is trying to put players with the same skill sets that Luke had in GS. Yi is obviously going to play the Mo Speights role. Big man that can play spot minutes at the stretch 5. More likely at the top of the key then the 3.
Yi's game hardly compares to Toni. |
This is spot on. He's a taller Speights for this team.
Yi's not very good dribbling the ball or facilitating. He's best at taking an open jumper and finishing at the rim.
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YSong
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| Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Yi is much more athletic than Kukoc but Kukoc better ball handler. |
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LAkers 4 Life
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Joined: 12 Apr 2001
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| Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Yi should not be in the same conversation as Toni Kukoc. Kukoc was a clutch player with multiple skills. They do share the same weak sauce defense, so there's that. |
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deal
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| Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 4:50 am Post subject: |
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| KindCrippler2000 wrote: | | ainsley wrote: | | Kukoc was a much better ball handler and passer |
I'm thinking he improved those traits during his 4 year stint in China, but we'll see. |
Kokoc could and would run offense when needed back in the day, that is not Yi at all. Yi will take his 3 pointers but he's not going to run the O.
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governator
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| Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 5:36 am Post subject: |
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Kukoc was the Michael Jordan of Europe... just Wanna point that out
This is a tall order of comparison, we're talking about a legit 6th man of the year candidate of a championship team vs the 15th man on a projected to have worst record in the league team...
I hope you guys are right, super sub Yi... |
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Denny_Russo
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| Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 5:44 am Post subject: |
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| governator wrote: | Kukoc was the Michael Jordan of Europe... just Wanna point that out
This is a tall order of comparison, we're talking about a legit 6th man of the year candidate of a championship team vs the 15th man on a projected to have worst record in the league team...
I hope you guys are right, super sub Yi... |
#SubliminalYiHypeThread
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activeverb
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| Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 11:49 am Post subject: |
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| Inspector Gadget wrote: | | KindCrippler2000 wrote: | | ainsley wrote: | | Kukoc was a much better ball handler and passer |
I'm thinking he improved those traits during his 4 year stint in China, but we'll see. |
What we need from Yi is confidence and focus, he doesn't need to be Kukoc... Let's not forget Yi was a lottery pick and Kukoc was a 2nd round pick. |
Kukoc was primarily drafted in the second round because he wouldn't be available to play in the NBA for a few years if at all. As others have said, his game isn't similar to Yi, and he always had a much higher reputation than Yi.
I am not sure why you assume Yi has improved his deficiencies in China, which is renowned as a league for terrible defense and inflated stats.
His passing and ball-handling is weak, even by China league standards. Yi's primary strength is as a stretch 4. He's a good outside shooter who plays lazy a lot, relying on his long arms to do the work. His age is anyone's guess (some people think he's 30), so it's dubious that he is going to have some transformation in his game after a stint in the weak Chinese game.
He's basically a low-risk gamble on a non-guaranteed contract and he's a long-shot to stick with the team when his incentives kick in. |
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lakersgala
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| Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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| E is Asian. Cukoc is European. very different there if you ask me. |
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matigol
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| Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 12:06 am Post subject: |
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| Kukoc could play a bit of all 5 positions. That's an insult, comparing those two |
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Krispy Kreme
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| Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 11:02 am Post subject: |
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ahhh pre-season, when the air of ridiculous optimism starts. im surprised we haven't seen the randle=barkley/malone threads.
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