View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
LakersRGolden Star Player
Joined: 13 Jan 2002 Posts: 7910 Location: Lake Forest
|
Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 12:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Bard207 wrote: | KindCrippler2000 wrote: | Hector the Pup wrote: | Wait. You mean the defense gets worse when the team loses 5 rotation players?
That's astounding. |
If there's one thing that's been the constant, it's been the defensive issues. A few spots here and there doesn't change the theme for the season. |
Clarkson and Lou are so locked into scoring, that effort on defense appears to be a secondary concern for both of them.
If Lou and Clarkson do refocus enough that their defense visibly improves, their offense might suffer enough that the bench unit won't have an edge over the bench units of other teams.
If the bench unit is no longer overwhelming other bench units on offense, then it will be quite difficult for them to close the gap on the scoreboard that the starting unit has given them.
I wouldn't expect any significant changes in the team defensive standings until next season because it might take the rest of this season plus maybe a few roster tweaks for the starting unit to be be able to have the scoreboard roughly even when they are subbed out for the bench unit. |
Considering Clarkson's impact on offense recently, he probably should look to balance it out to a reasonable extent with some more effort on D. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
KindCrippler2000 Franchise Player
Joined: 02 May 2003 Posts: 15821
|
Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 5:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Bard207 wrote: | KindCrippler2000 wrote: | Hector the Pup wrote: | Wait. You mean the defense gets worse when the team loses 5 rotation players?
That's astounding. |
If there's one thing that's been the constant, it's been the defensive issues. A few spots here and there doesn't change the theme for the season. |
Clarkson and Lou are so locked into scoring, that effort on defense appears to be a secondary concern for both of them.
If Lou and Clarkson do refocus enough that their defense visibly improves, their offense might suffer enough that the bench unit won't have an edge over the bench units of other teams.
If the bench unit is no longer overwhelming other bench units on offense, then it will be quite difficult for them to close the gap on the scoreboard that the starting unit has given them.
I wouldn't expect any significant changes in the team defensive standings until next season because it might take the rest of this season plus maybe a few roster tweaks for the starting unit to be be able to have the scoreboard roughly even when they are subbed out for the bench unit. |
1) The second unit dynamic with Lou and Clarkson worked up to a point, and a large portion of their defensive woes were ameliorated by pairing them up with average/above average defenders in Nance, Ingram and Black. It's no surprise the second unit defense falls apart when one those guys aren't playing. Nance leads the team in BPM, DBPM. Black is one of the few defenders hitting positive DBPM, although his offense leaves a lot to be desired. Ingram does get lazy on a few defensive sequences, but he's arguably the best perimeter defender on the team.
2) In regards to Lou - this is where Luke deserves some credit. He's figured out what Dwane Casey and Mike Budenholzer had trouble figuring out in Toronto and Atlanta, which is trying to maximize Lou's offensive potential without making him a bombshell liability on defense. Statistically, Lou has consistently been among the worst defensive players in the league. The second unit's defensive schemes are predicated more on help defense than individual defense, which benefits Lou tremendously. Luke should continue milking this as long as he can, although players will start regressing back to the mean very soon.
3) Clarkson has been the most disappointing defender on the team. I can understand Lou's disappointing defense, but Clarkson has all the tools to stay in front of his man. All signs indicated he progressed in that area and Luke even went as far as calling him one of the best defenders during preseason. Right now, I think his issue is with match-ups. He has trouble guarding bigger players, but I'll have to watch more footage and get back to you on that. *shrugs* |
|
Back to top |
|
|
pio2u Retired Number
Joined: 26 Dec 2012 Posts: 54520
|
Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 6:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Lakers Must Prioritize Defense to Make Playoff Dream a Reality
Quote: | The hype train on the Los Angeles Lakers has begun to rev up, but if the team is serious about making the Playoffs this season, they need to turn it around on the defensive end of the floor
If it wasn’t already apparent enough, Monday’s contest against the Utah Jazz was a prime example of the Lakers’ defensive struggles through the first quarter of this season.
Getting down by as many as 19 points in the middle stages of the game, Los Angeles must improve their defense if they plan on turning their Playoff pipe dreams into a reality. |
http://lakeshowlife.com/2016/12/06/lakers-playoff-odds-defense-key-luke-walton/ |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Bard207 Star Player
Joined: 08 Jan 2013 Posts: 7713
|
Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 3:40 am Post subject: |
|
|
KindCrippler2000 wrote: | Bard207 wrote: |
Clarkson and Lou are so locked into scoring, that effort on defense appears to be a secondary concern for both of them.
If Lou and Clarkson do refocus enough that their defense visibly improves, their offense might suffer enough that the bench unit won't have an edge over the bench units of other teams.
If the bench unit is no longer overwhelming other bench units on offense, then it will be quite difficult for them to close the gap on the scoreboard that the starting unit has given them.
I wouldn't expect any significant changes in the team defensive standings until next season because it might take the rest of this season plus maybe a few roster tweaks for the starting unit to be be able to have the scoreboard roughly even when they are subbed out for the bench unit. |
1) The second unit dynamic with Lou and Clarkson worked up to a point, and a large portion of their defensive woes were ameliorated by pairing them up with average/above average defenders in Nance, Ingram and Black. It's no surprise the second unit defense falls apart when one those guys aren't playing. Nance leads the team in BPM, DBPM. Black is one of the few defenders hitting positive DBPM, although his offense leaves a lot to be desired. Ingram does get lazy on a few defensive sequences, but he's arguably the best perimeter defender on the team.
2) In regards to Lou - this is where Luke deserves some credit. He's figured out what Dwane Casey and Mike Budenholzer had trouble figuring out in Toronto and Atlanta, which is trying to maximize Lou's offensive potential without making him a bombshell liability on defense. Statistically, Lou has consistently been among the worst defensive players in the league. The second unit's defensive schemes are predicated more on help defense than individual defense, which benefits Lou tremendously. Luke should continue milking this as long as he can, although players will start regressing back to the mean very soon.
3) Clarkson has been the most disappointing defender on the team. I can understand Lou's disappointing defense, but Clarkson has all the tools to stay in front of his man. All signs indicated he progressed in that area and Luke even went as far as calling him one of the best defenders during preseason. Right now, I think his issue is with match-ups. He has trouble guarding bigger players, but I'll have to watch more footage and get back to you on that. *shrugs* |
Quote: |
1) The second unit dynamic with Lou and Clarkson worked up to a point, and a large portion of their defensive woes were ameliorated by pairing them up with average/above average defenders in Nance, Ingram and Black. It's no surprise the second unit defense falls apart when one those guys aren't playing. Nance leads the team in BPM, DBPM. Black is one of the few defenders hitting positive DBPM, although his offense leaves a lot to be desired. Ingram does get lazy on a few defensive sequences, but he's arguably the best perimeter defender on the team.
|
It reminds me somewhat of the setup that Philadelphia had in the past with Iverson. Probably not sustainable long term because the roster will change and the right role p[layers might not be available. Even if the roster changes very little this summer, Ingram and Deng swapping spots in the rotation could be enough to change the dynamics of the bench unit.
Quote: |
2) In regards to Lou - this is where Luke deserves some credit. He's figured out what Dwane Casey and Mike Budenholzer had trouble figuring out in Toronto and Atlanta, which is trying to maximize Lou's offensive potential without making him a bombshell liability on defense. Statistically, Lou has consistently been among the worst defensive players in the league. The second unit's defensive schemes are predicated more on help defense than individual defense, which benefits Lou tremendously. Luke should continue milking this as long as he can, although players will start regressing back to the mean very soon.
|
It could be that the right players happened to be in the right place at the right time when Luke assembled the bench unit.
Lou's three point percentage is notably higher than past seasons and that is masking some of the problems of the team.
2011 - 2012
36.2%
2012 - 2013
36.7%
2013 - 2014
34.2%
2014 - 2015
34%
2015 - 2016
34.4%
2016 - 2017
39.3.%
If his three point percentage was closer to his historical norm, perhaps at least two more losses and the team would be closer to the Timberwolves, Suns etc in the standings rather than the playoff teams.
Quote: |
3) Clarkson has been the most disappointing defender on the team. I can understand Lou's disappointing defense, but Clarkson has all the tools to stay in front of his man. All signs indicated he progressed in that area and Luke even went as far as calling him one of the best defenders during preseason. Right now, I think his issue is with match-ups. He has trouble guarding bigger players, but I'll have to watch more footage and get back to you on that. *shrugs*[
|
As long as Clarkson is on the floor with Lou, he will be forced to take the tougher defensive assignment. The positive of having two Sixth Man types on the floor together is that it is difficult for the opposing defenses to shut both of them down. The negative of having two Sixth Man types on the floor together is that the defense could be shaky.
My impression is that Clarkson will play acceptable defense at times, but not often enough to silence the detractors. There is more glory & fame for scoring points than playing gritty defense. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
WVLAKERFAN1 Rookie
Joined: 07 Dec 2016 Posts: 16
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
Dave20 Franchise Player
Joined: 15 Jun 2013 Posts: 11333
|
Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 8:32 am Post subject: |
|
|
Clarkson has been our best perimeter defender this year. The problem with this team is we don't have an elite shot blocker and we don't blitz the screens enough. We're giving up too many points in the paint.
If I was a coach I would blitz screens and hard hedge 75% of the time and let the bigs try to beat me not the great guards. Soft hedging is like prevent defense in the NFL it rarely works. The Lakers run too much soft hedge defensively and it's easy for the great guards in this league to beat. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
KindCrippler2000 Franchise Player
Joined: 02 May 2003 Posts: 15821
|
Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 9:16 am Post subject: |
|
|
That's impressive, but a few things to take into consideration:
1) That DFG DIFF% is defensive cover only, which doesn't take PnR play or switching into account. The second unit dynamic has success switching on every screen.
2) The Lakers are doing a decent job of closing out on the perimeter (11th in opponent 3pt%), but paint points, by and large, remain the problem.
3) Tony Allen is edging in the positive DIFF%, but it hardly speaks about the defender he is. Everyone knows what he did to Lou the other night. You want to look at his DBPM (defensive box score plus/minus), which is 2.7. He has one of the best defensive ratings in the league (96). Clarkson's DBPM is -1.4 and his defensive rating is mediocre (111). |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Warren Coolidge Sixth Man
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 74
|
Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 5:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Julius Randle's defensive effort inside the paint is a real problem..
notice how many times during the game he's inside the key moving towards the guy with the ball...and his hands are down below his waist...
he's a power forward ...or a small ball center whose defense in the paint is to run at guys with his hands down by his side...
it's really frustrating to watch...and honestly is the reason why so many teams just take the ball inside on his with no real resistance from us... |
|
Back to top |
|
|
KindCrippler2000 Franchise Player
Joined: 02 May 2003 Posts: 15821
|
Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 7:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Warren Coolidge wrote: | Julius Randle's defensive effort inside the paint is a real problem..
notice how many times during the game he's inside the key moving towards the guy with the ball...and his hands are down below his waist...
he's a power forward ...or a small ball center whose defense in the paint is to run at guys with his hands down by his side...
it's really frustrating to watch...and honestly is the reason why so many teams just take the ball inside on his with no real resistance from us... |
If there was one game where I saw Randle's "t-rex arms", it was this one, because I had zero idea what people were talking about prior to this. The Randle at center experiment started at the Utah Jazz away game earlier this season. I wanted to give it the benefit of the doubt because it was only a one game sample size (and George Hill killed us in the paint). It's been a total annihilation in the middle since he's been there. He's a beast on the boards, but it's my hope Luke scales this experiment back a bit. If he's trying to turn Randle into Green, it's going to take a while. If the intention is to win games, they need someone to deter shots down low. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
anpherknee Franchise Player
Joined: 14 Mar 2014 Posts: 16933
|
Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 7:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
mans came in ready for action on the first post
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
KindCrippler2000 Franchise Player
Joined: 02 May 2003 Posts: 15821
|
Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 8:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
anpherknee wrote: | mans came in ready for action on the first post
|
I'm not hating on Randle, brosky. This is all constructive criticism after one of the depressing losses of the season. From a defensive perspective, this team has wayyys to go... I don't think the center experiment is working out right now. I expect it to take time. That is all. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
anpherknee Franchise Player
Joined: 14 Mar 2014 Posts: 16933
|
Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 8:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
KindCrippler2000 wrote: | anpherknee wrote: | mans came in ready for action on the first post
|
I'm not hating on Randle, brosky. This is all constructive criticism after one of the depressing losses of the season. From a defensive perspective, this team has wayyys to go... I don't think the center experiment is working out right now. I expect it to take time. That is all. |
I wasn't talking about you famuel
I was talking about the person who came in with the defensive numbers on their first post ever, didn't even say hi before they was ready for action |
|
Back to top |
|
|
KindCrippler2000 Franchise Player
Joined: 02 May 2003 Posts: 15821
|
Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 8:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
anpherknee wrote: | KindCrippler2000 wrote: | anpherknee wrote: | mans came in ready for action on the first post
|
I'm not hating on Randle, brosky. This is all constructive criticism after one of the depressing losses of the season. From a defensive perspective, this team has wayyys to go... I don't think the center experiment is working out right now. I expect it to take time. That is all. |
I wasn't talking about you famuel
I was talking about the person who came in with the defensive numbers on their first post ever, didn't even say hi before they was ready for action |
http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/15/158c803003d0271289543ad87600f8f4acbd8b3659a7b6995aa2f6a3d00b5b44.jpg |
|
Back to top |
|
|
anpherknee Franchise Player
Joined: 14 Mar 2014 Posts: 16933
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
KindCrippler2000 Franchise Player
Joined: 02 May 2003 Posts: 15821
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
mhan00 Retired Number
Joined: 13 Apr 2001 Posts: 32025
|
Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 2:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Hopefully things stabilize when we get Dlo and Young back. Young has been our best perimeter defender this season :shock: and Dlo is long and can get some steals. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
KindCrippler2000 Franchise Player
Joined: 02 May 2003 Posts: 15821
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
LAkers 4 Life Franchise Player
Joined: 12 Apr 2001 Posts: 14629
|
Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 10:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Their ranking is just gonna keep looking worse and worse with the players Luke has to work with right now. No communication, bad effort, and poor fundamentals sums up the bulk of their problems. On both ends. They really could use a long break to just focus on practices. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
venturalakersfan Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144432 Location: The Gold Coast
|
Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 10:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
We didn't go small ball, we went "whoever we have left on the bench" ball. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
KindCrippler2000 Franchise Player
Joined: 02 May 2003 Posts: 15821
|
Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 10:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
LAkers 4 Life wrote: | Their ranking is just gonna keep looking worse and worse with the players Luke has to work with right now. No communication, bad effort, and poor fundamentals sums up the bulk of their problems. On both ends. They really could use a long break to just focus on practices. |
I don't think it's that difficult. Earl Watson found a semi-sustainable formula with the Suns -- pair 4 guys with a decent rim protector like Len or Chandler. Those two guys don't really give a damn, they will alter shots, even at the expense of fouling. Len has an unreliable offensive game, but he racked up 5 blocks in the first half.
Luke is pairing Lou and Huertas with Randle as the rim protector. It's getting beyond ridiculous now. I don't think I've ever been so frustrated at his defensive rotations. I acknowledge Luke is a rookie coach but it's no reason to continue what isn't working. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Jim99187 Franchise Player
Joined: 03 Jan 2014 Posts: 22138
|
Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 10:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
venturalakersfan wrote: |
We didn't go small ball, we went "whoever we have left on the bench" ball. |
false. Mozgov played 20mins and Zubac played 0 to counter Suns Size of Chandler(23) and Len 34mins |
|
Back to top |
|
|
LAkers 4 Life Franchise Player
Joined: 12 Apr 2001 Posts: 14629
|
Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 11:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
KindCrippler2000 wrote: | LAkers 4 Life wrote: | Their ranking is just gonna keep looking worse and worse with the players Luke has to work with right now. No communication, bad effort, and poor fundamentals sums up the bulk of their problems. On both ends. They really could use a long break to just focus on practices. |
I don't think it's that difficult. Earl Watson found a semi-sustainable formula with the Suns -- pair 4 guys with a decent rim protector like Len or Chandler. Those two guys don't really give a damn, they will alter shots, even at the expense of fouling. Len has an unreliable offensive game, but he racked up 5 blocks in the first half.
Luke is pairing Lou and Huertas with Randle as the rim protector. It's getting beyond ridiculous now. I don't think I've ever been so frustrated at his defensive rotations. I acknowledge Luke is a rookie coach but it's no reason to continue what isn't working. |
Chandler is a very smart defensive player and rim protector. They have several guys on their team that can shoot the ball or create a shot off the dribble. They also moved the ball pretty well in the game as evidenced by their lack of turnovers. Plus, they have the benefit of some veteran players. It's much more difficult for Walton because of the injuries and the lack of personnel. Outside of Lou Williams, who else on the Lakers is a true scoring or shooting threat? Who has been reliable defensively? Walton has a much bigger coaching job to do right now. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
KindCrippler2000 Franchise Player
Joined: 02 May 2003 Posts: 15821
|
Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 12:26 am Post subject: |
|
|
LAkers 4 Life wrote: | KindCrippler2000 wrote: | LAkers 4 Life wrote: | Their ranking is just gonna keep looking worse and worse with the players Luke has to work with right now. No communication, bad effort, and poor fundamentals sums up the bulk of their problems. On both ends. They really could use a long break to just focus on practices. |
I don't think it's that difficult. Earl Watson found a semi-sustainable formula with the Suns -- pair 4 guys with a decent rim protector like Len or Chandler. Those two guys don't really give a damn, they will alter shots, even at the expense of fouling. Len has an unreliable offensive game, but he racked up 5 blocks in the first half.
Luke is pairing Lou and Huertas with Randle as the rim protector. It's getting beyond ridiculous now. I don't think I've ever been so frustrated at his defensive rotations. I acknowledge Luke is a rookie coach but it's no reason to continue what isn't working. |
Chandler is a very smart defensive player and rim protector. They have several guys on their team that can shoot the ball or create a shot off the dribble. They also moved the ball pretty well in the game as evidenced by their lack of turnovers. Plus, they have the benefit of some veteran players. It's much more difficult for Walton because of the injuries and the lack of personnel. Outside of Lou Williams, who else on the Lakers is a true scoring or shooting threat? Who has been reliable defensively? Walton has a much bigger coaching job to do right now. |
Lakers have veteran players too. In fact they spent a good 33-34 million on veteran leadership this season. They just seem to be invisible right now. The gamble isn't paying off, and I'd say the Suns got the better bargain. Mozgov also needs to be seeing burn at the end of ball games. His defensive impact is underrated.
I didn't even think tonight was an offensive battle. Booker fouled out and never really got going. TJ Warren, their second leading scorer, was out. Suns got stops and the result was easy transition points. How many times did you see guys like Knight, Bledsoe, or Barbosa leak out and get easy transition buckets? Barbosa averages 6 points a game, but the Lakers decided to give him 21 tonight. The game was a stalemate in the late fourth. The team that got the stops won. Same thing in the Grizzles game.
I don't even care about the offense right now. Lou Williams isn't the problem on offense. He's a side-effect of the problem. Not factoring his terrible transition defense, I've already explained why the ball needs to move rather than stick to him. The long term consequences of Lou scoring that much every game is bad. They are 0-6 when he scores 30 or more. When he touches it, no one else has a chance to get going. Nance was hesitating on his shots, but he's capable of making them. They went to Ingram in the first play of the game, and then decided to stop for some reason. That Ingram hit two very tough buckets in the clutch shows me he needs more touches. He needs to play with that level of aggression every game. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Chronicle Retired Number
Joined: 21 Jul 2012 Posts: 31930 Location: Manhattan
|
Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 1:00 am Post subject: |
|
|
Yeah I'm quite annoyed by luke's lineups, since the start of the season already _________________ Kobe |
|
Back to top |
|
|
eureca Franchise Player
Joined: 18 Jan 2004 Posts: 15798
|
Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 4:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Just looked and Lakers are allowing a NBA worst .480 defensive field goal percentage per game......
The Warriors are the only team in the NBA that has a higher offensive field goal percentage per game.
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
|