Hawks to retire "Pistol" Pete Maravich's number
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 7:19 pm    Post subject: Hawks to retire "Pistol" Pete Maravich's number

http://nba.nbcsports.com/2017/01/04/hawks-to-retire-pistol-pete-maravichs-number/

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Hawks to retire “Pistol” Pete Maravich’s number


There has never been another player like “Pistol” Pete Maravich.

He is a Hall of Famer, a five-time All-Star, four-time All-NBA, but he is remembered as one of the most entertaining players ever to lace them up. Basketball is supposed to be fun and entertaining, and few have blown away the people in the seats like Maravich.

It was the Atlanta Hawks who drafted Maravich, and it is there he spent the first four years of his career. Finally, they are going to retire his number 44, reports Chris Vivlamore of The Atlanta Journal-Constitution.

A date and details of when the No. 44 will be raised to the rafters of Philips Arena have not been finalized…

The Hawks drafted Maravich with the third overall pick in the 1970 NBA Draft. He played 302 games for the Hawks and averaged 24.3 points, 5.6 assists and 4.2 rebounds in 37.2 minutes. He had a field-goal percentage of .448.

Maravich passed away back in 1988, at the age of 40, when he suffered heart failure playing a pickup basketball game.

Maravich’s number has already been retired by the Utah Jazz and the New Orleans Pelicans — Maravich is best known for his time playing for the then New Orleans Jazz. The other retired numbers in Atlanta? Bob Pettit (No. 9), Lou Hudson (23), Dominique Wilkins (No. 21) and Dikembe Mutombo (No. 55).
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 7:28 am    Post subject:

Sign of a flyover franchise: spotlighting an overall shoddy history decades after the fact.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 9:16 am    Post subject:

Kinda odd timing yeah, but I'm more surprised actually that the Hawks hadn't already retired the guy's number. Pete deserved the honor, definitely. BTW, he took the jersey #44 as a nod to his pro idol, Jerry West.

That list of Hawks retired numbers would make up a pretty wild scoring team:

C Dikembe Mutombo (55)
F Bob Pettit (9)
F Dominique Wilkins (21)
G Lou Hudson (23)
G Pete Maravich (44)
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 4:36 pm    Post subject:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YThUrW8wM-Q
skip to 8:40 to hear Drob talk about pistol pete.
pistol pete has an absolutely amazing story
he passes like magic (magic openly admits he learned his style from him)
he shoots like curry
he didn't have either one's teammates, not even close
no championships
no glory
every remotely good player post 80s is ranked above him
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 5:59 pm    Post subject:

I'm not sure if I can think of any player in NBA history who divides opinion quite like Pistol Pete did.

To his fans, he was a dazzling talent who was sunk by bad teammates.

To his critics, he was a ball hog, who care more about flashy plays than winning, and who gave away two points for every one he scored because of his terrible defense.

He really was a bridge between the eighties and nineties. But I think his Dad did him a disservice by letting him be a one-man show in college. I always felt pete preferred to do a harder play that look good rather than an easier play that led to more success. He had kind of a Harlem Globetrotter mentality
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 6:38 pm    Post subject:

^^^^

True. He was sort of a cross between an undisciplined Steve Nash and an Allen Iverson with even less self-restraint. He was spectacular, for sure. I can't think of anyone in the modern era who played like him, probably because anyone else would have had a coach who told him to knock it off. As you say, his Dad did him no favors. On the other hand, maybe he did, since we're still talking about him forty years after his prime.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 8:29 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
^^^^

True. He was sort of a cross between an undisciplined Steve Nash and an Allen Iverson with even less self-restraint. He was spectacular, for sure. I can't think of anyone in the modern era who played like him, probably because anyone else would have had a coach who told him to knock it off. As you say, his Dad did him no favors. On the other hand, maybe he did, since we're still talking about him forty years after his prime.


Good point. if Pete had been a "better" basketball player, in terms of playing a game focused on winning, he might well be forgotten today.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 9:33 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
As you say, his Dad did him no favors. On the other hand, maybe he did, since we're still talking about him forty years after his prime.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:19 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
^^^^

True. He was sort of a cross between an undisciplined Steve Nash and an Allen Iverson with even less self-restraint. He was spectacular, for sure. I can't think of anyone in the modern era who played like him, probably because anyone else would have had a coach who told him to knock it off. As you say, his Dad did him no favors. On the other hand, maybe he did, since we're still talking about him forty years after his prime.


His dad Press I think encouraged him to practice his gimmickry. I remember a story about Pete dribbling a ball while sitting on the flatbed of his dad's truck (going slow enough, obv). Not saying that Pete didn't put thousands of hours into honing his dribbling and passing, but maybe he devoted TOO much to certain things and not enough overall(?...) That was back when good fundamentals were so widespread. Contrast that with today, and you can be Bron and just get to the (f) basket, dribbling fundamentals be damned. On the flip, being as thin as he was, how would Pete fare in a later time?
--

Here's a hobby horse I'll ride again. NBA was shameful at saving footage in the 70s and 60s more-so. Whatever Pete wasn't, without a doubt, he WAS one of the greatest entertainers in the sport's entire history and there's only a dozen full gms of his extant from what I've read. There's an actor (he was Larry's annoying neighbor in "The Wire" episode of Curb Your Enth) who claims to own an unreleased gm played at The Forum. The fact there's a game that a private collector won't release is proof enough of what I'm layin down here. Anything unseen from Pete is black market level. The NCAA and/or LSU did a better job filming his games than the NBA.

Btw, Pete died of a heart attack right after playing a pick-up gm in 1988. One of the players was a doctor who attended to him lying there like Hank Gathers. He said Pete told him right before he collapsed something to the effect of, "I feel great. We oughta do this more often." Auspicious words, man. "Never tomorrow, the good Lord'll take you away..." I think he was the only of the 50 Greatest Players in 1997 who had passed away.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 4:42 am    Post subject:

The fact we are still talking about him, and people who never saw him play (me) have informed opinions on his games, must mean something
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 7:40 am    Post subject:

non-player zealot wrote:
That was back when good fundamentals were so widespread. Contrast that with today, and you can be Bron and just get to the (f) basket, dribbling fundamentals be damned.


Just as an aside, I think this is a misconception. There is a tendency to mistake mechanical, college style play for "good fundamentals." Certain people in the media perpetuate this. But that is another topic for another day.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:36 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
non-player zealot wrote:
That was back when good fundamentals were so widespread. Contrast that with today, and you can be Bron and just get to the (f) basket, dribbling fundamentals be damned.


Just as an aside, I think this is a misconception. There is a tendency to mistake mechanical, college style play for "good fundamentals." Certain people in the media perpetuate this. But that is another topic for another day.


I'm thinking early to mid 70s when I say that. That's what first sticks out to me when I see the rare footage from those days. Maybe lest you prefer to call it something other than fundamentals. I see teams that are generally much better passing units that what we see today, 5 guys passing around to find the open man I generally see much more offensive patience and "letter of law" dribbling (because it was forced thru very tight reffing). The difference as I see it between that and NCAA ball is that it was done at a pro level. The forced open-man, forced 2-3 passes before shot college style that many coaches still preach often looks sloppy even if it IS patient. A majority of even the major colleges aren't chock full of guys who will ever become pros, especially from the mid-90s to now when blue chippers trying to avoid the NCAA if their talent permits.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:13 pm    Post subject:

I am referring more to the mechanical style of colleges in an earlier era, not the style that we see in the age of one-and-dones. The style of play was more primitive back then. As players became more athletic, they pushed the envelope on things like dribbling. As the league and the owners figured out that athleticism and dunks sold tickets, the game gravitated that way.

This is true in a lot of sports. Why are there so many strikeouts in baseball these days? It isn't because guys don't have good hitting fundamentals. It's because current baseball doctrine values power and walks (in other words, taking lots of pitches) over contact and batting average.

I think there is a tendency to mistake style of play for fundamentals. If you look at the mechanical style of teams from the pre-modern era, there is a nostalgic appeal to the old school style of play. The game evolved, though. You refer to "letter of law" dribbling, but the alternative way of looking at it is that those guys didn't have the dribbling skills that are needed in the modern game.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:10 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
I am referring more to the mechanical style of colleges in an earlier era, not the style that we see in the age of one-and-dones. The style of play was more primitive back then. As players became more athletic, they pushed the envelope on things like dribbling. As the league and the owners figured out that athleticism and dunks sold tickets, the game gravitated that way.

This is true in a lot of sports. Why are there so many strikeouts in baseball these days? It isn't because guys don't have good hitting fundamentals. It's because current baseball doctrine values power and walks (in other words, taking lots of pitches) over contact and batting average.

I think there is a tendency to mistake style of play for fundamentals. If you look at the mechanical style of teams from the pre-modern era, there is a nostalgic appeal to the old school style of play. The game evolved, though. You refer to "letter of law" dribbling, but the alternative way of looking at it is that those guys didn't have the dribbling skills that are needed in the modern game.


I find people often equate lack of athleticism and lack of speed with better fundamentals, which is why they think women and college players have better fundamentals than NBA players. It may be that (1) it's easier to follow what slow and unathletic players are doing, while with the NBA everything can seem a blur; or (2) people assume that slower and unathletic have to have better fundamentals in order to be able to compete.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:38 pm    Post subject:

non-player zealot wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
non-player zealot wrote:
That was back when good fundamentals were so widespread. Contrast that with today, and you can be Bron and just get to the (f) basket, dribbling fundamentals be damned.


Just as an aside, I think this is a misconception. There is a tendency to mistake mechanical, college style play for "good fundamentals." Certain people in the media perpetuate this. But that is another topic for another day.


I'm thinking early to mid 70s when I say that. That's what first sticks out to me when I see the rare footage from those days. Maybe lest you prefer to call it something other than fundamentals. I see teams that are generally much better passing units that what we see today, 5 guys passing around to find the open man I generally see much more offensive patience and "letter of law" dribbling (because it was forced thru very tight reffing). The difference as I see it between that and NCAA ball is that it was done at a pro level. The forced open-man, forced 2-3 passes before shot college style that many coaches still preach often looks sloppy even if it IS patient. A majority of even the major colleges aren't chock full of guys who will ever become pros, especially from the mid-90s to now when blue chippers trying to avoid the NCAA if their talent permits.

if we're trying to be honest here, its all about officiating. players will ALWAYS do whatever they can get away with to succeed. lebron's flopping is not as much a knock on him as the officials who allow him to win while doing so.

"fundamentals" is ALWAYS a word used to hype up a player who is otherwise boring or not as good as what people want to believe. the king of this is obviously duncan. its a total positivity term. there's no such thing as "fundamental". Kobe's footwork wasn't fundamentally sound...it was just really good footwork. Duncan's footwork is fundamentally sound...meaning it's not always traveling, but nothing special. lebron is another one, of course. who else? Kawhi, of course...i mean, the spurs are so good at this particular thing. the spurs motto should be "We're never the best, but we're always there somewhere."

if the officials called the game the way they are supposed to, it would look very different. you will never see it. all those dunks from blake or nance? offensive fouls. you cant push off someone's head when you dunk. all the traveling. that jimmy butler layup on the cavs winner? travel. lebron's free throws to seal game 7? even the lakers i wont mention it but steve smith has a valid case. shaq's elbowing mutombos head lol. mutumbo full on leaning horizontal on shaq? these are all ridiculous that nobody says anything.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:38 am    Post subject:

^^^^

I agree with much of that, but let's not hang all of this on the officials themselves. If the powers that be, from the high school level on up, wanted the game to be played differently, that is exactly what would have happened. Setting aside specific blown calls, the general way that officials are calling the game is exactly the way that they are supposed to be calling it. The powers that be understand that this is an entertainment product, and they made the decision long ago that athleticism sells more tickets than "letter of law" dribbling.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:33 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
^^^^

I agree with much of that, but let's not hang all of this on the officials themselves. If the powers that be, from the high school level on up, wanted the game to be played differently, that is exactly what would have happened. Setting aside specific blown calls, the general way that officials are calling the game is exactly the way that they are supposed to be calling it. The powers that be understand that this is an entertainment product, and they made the decision long ago that athleticism sells more tickets than "letter of law" dribbling.

yes! of course. and for years i try to talk about these things, but it doesnt seem there is interest. i get accused of conspiracy blah. it's like business or marketing=conspiracy.

as a grown up fan, this is what it is
the officials are in control during the game
all the things we would complain about, its in the officials hands.
youre right, for the sake of entertainment, the league doesnt want all this nitpicky stuff.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:03 pm    Post subject:

^^^^

Well, the conspiracy stuff is a different ballgame. There is a distinction between the powers that be allowing (or encouraging) the game to evolve in a way that suits their interests, on the one hand, and the powers that be manipulating officiating to the benefit or detriment of a particular team or player, on the other hand. I agree on the former.

Players are going to push the envelope on rules. That's true in any sport. If they can get away with something, they'll do it. If the powers that be don't want them to get away with it, the officiating will change.

Business considerations are important. If the fans don't like something (slowdown offenses in college basketball, for example), things will change. When the stodgy old schoolers banned dunking in college basketball, it didn't last for long.

This reminds me of a comment by Bill James a few years back. He said that at most other times in baseball history, if someone like Babe Ruth had come along and started hitting lots of home runs, the owners would have done something to stop it. They would have said that they wanted to restore the purity of the game. Instead, baseball was in the grips of the Black Sox scandal. The owners needed all of the attention that Ruth was bringing to the game.

In this sense, the impact of Dr. J and the ABA should not be forgotten. The slam dunk contests in the ABA educated the owners that dunking and athleticism sold tickets and drew attention to the sport. The flying slam dunk was to the NBA what the tape measure home run was to baseball.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:29 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
^^^^

Well, the conspiracy stuff is a different ballgame. There is a distinction between the powers that be allowing (or encouraging) the game to evolve in a way that suits their interests, on the one hand, and the powers that be manipulating officiating to the benefit or detriment of a particular team or player, on the other hand. I agree on the former. ll.



Yeah, these are really two different topics.

I doubt many fans would disagree or mind that, say, the NBA loosened up its interpretation of what constitutes traveling or palming. That makes the game more fun.

The players simply adjust to the new interpretation. As long as the officials are as consistent as human beings can be, the new interpretation changes the nature of the game, but doesn't inherently give anyone an advantage.

But that's much different than saying the officials are making arbitrary calls or calls aimed at affecting the outcome of a game.

The first thing (interpreting rules in new ways) has been going on for as long as I've followed the NBA. I remember being shocked when James Worthy got away with a spin move that clearly seemed like traveling to me, or Charles Barkley did bunny hops on his drive to the basket, but that stuff simply became the new norm and everyone was soon doing it.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:07 pm    Post subject:

Pistol Pete taught me how to shoot a basketball. He has instructional videos on YouTube from way back. Prior to that, I would squat and use two hands without any arc.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 12:15 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:

I doubt many fans would disagree or mind that, say, the NBA loosened up its interpretation of what constitutes traveling or palming. That makes the game more fun.

you for sure do not play ball. sorry.

the traveling and palming stuff is too much. too much!!
the BIG problem with it is that they'll let it go for certain players or important moments. which is almost, well, a fatal flaw to me as a fan. because if someone can travel and others can't, which is exactly what happens on those plays, it totally ruins the balance of the game. it just gives the guy traveling too much power.

a scrub will look better than MJ if he can travel. if your pickup friends traveled a lot, you wouldn't play with them. hell no.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:53 am    Post subject:

SuperboyReformed wrote:
activeverb wrote:

I doubt many fans would disagree or mind that, say, the NBA loosened up its interpretation of what constitutes traveling or palming. That makes the game more fun.

you for sure do not play ball. sorry.

the traveling and palming stuff is too much. too much!!
the BIG problem with it is that they'll let it go for certain players or important moments. which is almost, well, a fatal flaw to me as a fan. because if someone can travel and others can't, which is exactly what happens on those plays, it totally ruins the balance of the game. it just gives the guy traveling too much power.

a scrub will look better than MJ if he can travel. if your pickup friends traveled a lot, you wouldn't play with them. hell no.


You misunderstood me.

I said that over the past 40 years the NBA has loosened up the interpretation of what constitutes traveling and palming to make the game more exciting. I wasn't suggesting this meant one player gets to travel and another doesn't; all players have to adjust to the new way the game is called, which is inevitably what happens.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 8:34 am    Post subject:

We so slow...
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 6:00 pm    Post subject:

Pistol Pete in action
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 3:27 pm    Post subject:

non-player zealot wrote:
Sign of a flyover franchise: spotlighting an overall shoddy history decades after the fact.


I agree, NPZ. Another example of them as a flyover franchise was banishing Nique to the Clipps in 94 while they were midway thru a Renaissance season with Jordan playing baseball. Hawks were playing great as a scrappy, unselfish passing unit with no superstar but an aged Nique. I was reminded of this at Youtube. That's gotta be the most disrespectful ending to a career for a superstar who toiled for them for 12 yrs, never getting out of the first round, being cursed with that lack of the 2nd superstar or even sub-superstar (don't tell me Willis or Mookie Blaylock even though you love to say the name Mookie Blaylock...). I remember Manning complaining about the LAMC being a dump as opposed to PHX's new arena and such for that whole season until he was traded. It was obvious he wanted to go to PHX and God knows they loved forwards back then. They're even lucky he did ditch them because he instantly became an injury case as soon as he put on that Suns uni.

Wellp, that's one of my soapboxes. Nique was my favorite non Laker superstar, for a little insight. Liked his personality and play. I liked Chuck, too, but he was far worse back then when his MPV/superstar ego was in play than he is even now as a portly butt of jokes.

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