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yinoma2001
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 Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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| 55 wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | I give Omar/24 credit in that I distinctly recall him arguing against tanking repeatedly. It's one thing to do it a year, but it's tough to get back up after you've established that losing year after year.
What I'm hoping for is either one of Russ/Randle/Ingram develop into a superstar or we can trade for one. Without a superstar it's real tough to make the playoffs year after year with a young team such as ours. We are simply lacking that consistent engine. |
The being-okay-with-losing mentality is a big part of the blame for losing big leads and not being able to close out games. They lack a pressured situation of win or die mentality. I was hoping Deng & Mozgov would help with that. |
Yeah. This is why I'm hoping the final 30 games are consequential towards something. If not they will tune out and we lose precious games of development.
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55
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | 55 wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | I give Omar/24 credit in that I distinctly recall him arguing against tanking repeatedly. It's one thing to do it a year, but it's tough to get back up after you've established that losing year after year.
What I'm hoping for is either one of Russ/Randle/Ingram develop into a superstar or we can trade for one. Without a superstar it's real tough to make the playoffs year after year with a young team such as ours. We are simply lacking that consistent engine. |
The being-okay-with-losing mentality is a big part of the blame for losing big leads and not being able to close out games. They lack a pressured situation of win or die mentality. I was hoping Deng & Mozgov would help with that. |
Yeah. This is why I'm hoping the final 30 games are consequential towards something. If not they will tune out and we lose precious games of development. |
Time for Luke to light a fire under their ass and take a Byron approach? 
Like he said, if you're not hustling and playing well someone else will take your place. That's a good start... |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| 55 wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | 55 wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | I give Omar/24 credit in that I distinctly recall him arguing against tanking repeatedly. It's one thing to do it a year, but it's tough to get back up after you've established that losing year after year.
What I'm hoping for is either one of Russ/Randle/Ingram develop into a superstar or we can trade for one. Without a superstar it's real tough to make the playoffs year after year with a young team such as ours. We are simply lacking that consistent engine. |
The being-okay-with-losing mentality is a big part of the blame for losing big leads and not being able to close out games. They lack a pressured situation of win or die mentality. I was hoping Deng & Mozgov would help with that. |
Yeah. This is why I'm hoping the final 30 games are consequential towards something. If not they will tune out and we lose precious games of development. |
Time for Luke to light a fire under their ass and take a Byron approach?
Like he said, if you're not hustling and playing well someone else will take your place. That's a good start... |
Problem with Byron was he got too personal with Dlo and Jules. Like he questioned their manhood and such. Destroyed their relationship.
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55
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | 55 wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | 55 wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | I give Omar/24 credit in that I distinctly recall him arguing against tanking repeatedly. It's one thing to do it a year, but it's tough to get back up after you've established that losing year after year.
What I'm hoping for is either one of Russ/Randle/Ingram develop into a superstar or we can trade for one. Without a superstar it's real tough to make the playoffs year after year with a young team such as ours. We are simply lacking that consistent engine. |
The being-okay-with-losing mentality is a big part of the blame for losing big leads and not being able to close out games. They lack a pressured situation of win or die mentality. I was hoping Deng & Mozgov would help with that. |
Yeah. This is why I'm hoping the final 30 games are consequential towards something. If not they will tune out and we lose precious games of development. |
Time for Luke to light a fire under their ass and take a Byron approach?
Like he said, if you're not hustling and playing well someone else will take your place. That's a good start... |
Problem(s) with Byron |
That's all that needs to be said. |
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crazylakerfan001
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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Hey atleast we are not brooklyn. They are not even trying to tank and have the worst record in the league.
if they give an already stacked boston team the first overall they might as well just fold. |
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TooMuchMajicBuss
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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Wolf - excellent post.
And as somebody said earlier in this thread, this goes beyond some mathematical equation. You can't just plug one more good draft pick into variable A, simplify and determine one free agent is the dependent variable, and work out the solution to Western Conference Finals. That's as dumb as thinking a bad record guarantees X player in the draft.
Losing begets losing, and it's showing up now that the Lakers have been challenged with injuries and opponents who saw what we did out of the blocks and adjusted. Tanking means giving up, in one form or another. Hard habit to kick when things are down. Stay away from it. |
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adkindo
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | Good post wolf. This was the discussion we were having during the tanking, that losing begets losing, and that it is really hard to get out of. It is actually really hard to get out of each tier (bottom of lottery, top of lottery, bottom playoff team, mid playoff team), and there are few shortcuts to do it, but plenty of shortcuts to not. |
I agree there is a correlation, but do not agree on the causation. Tanking often requires a depletion of talent and experience, and you cannot usually get that back quickly, which causes continued losing...the lack or talent and experience, not the losing itself. |
Losing is also a habit, and a mindset. it is much easier to teach a young player to win on a winning team than on a losing team. Winning teams are teams that not only have talent and good coaching/schemes, but they have continuity and the habits of winning. Losing teams have no continuity. And the habits are hard to teach when the key motivator to repeat them (winning) is hard to come by. |
probably not a wide gap in our thoughts, but I would just say keep in mind most of these guys have been winners for decades....from the pee wee leagues to middle school teams, high school teams and college.
Like I said, if we was having an in person conversation going into the weeds, I doubt there is a huge gap in thought, as I recognize bad habits are often gained during losing, but think they can be managed and mitigated. |
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vanexelent
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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Between Showtime and the Lake Show we went over a decade before we won a ring. I never once grew impatient with our teams in between. Granted we drafted Eddie Jones and my man NVE, but it's only been 6 years thus far since Kobe and Pau lead us to our last two.
With that said, I like our young talent, but looking at the UFA market, I don't see a "superstar" coming here and making a big difference. OKC had three All Generation players and only made 1 Finals. Lebron is literally a Top 5 player, so hoping that lands in our lap is unlikely. |
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Shaolin's Finest
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Luke said it best before the start of the season, we should all focus more on the progression of the team. Wins and losses at this point is not as important. Call me crazy but I'm still hopeful we can hit the 30 win mark. If not, I'll still be happy if our team shows good progress at the end of the season. |
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1hu2ren3dui4
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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| It's nice to have an organization rich in history to backstop some of that losing metaliy. |
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lakersken80
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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| They aren't tanking they just aren't very good. Honestly don't expect much of them this season considering our best young players are only in their second season of playing an 82 game season. |
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SuperboyReformed
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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it all depends on a lot...
the original tankers of the modern era were...the spurs.
they tanked, and won immediately.
they were #2 or #3 team in the west for another 4 years.
then they won again.
compared to us...
we tanked
we are NOT anywhere near playoffs
will we win a ring in 4 years?
totally doable.
but compared to spurs, they had a head start. |
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SuperboyReformed
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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| lakersken80 wrote: | | They aren't tanking they just aren't very good. Honestly don't expect much of them this season considering our best young players are only in their second season of playing an 82 game season. |
doesnt really matter how old or young they are. theyve been playing ball their whole lives. magics squad won his rookie year, so did duncan. it can happen. |
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Runway8
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:57 pm Post subject: Re: Not easy to rise back up after tanking. |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | Many of us - myself included - were for tanking. We have reaped the benefits. We have gotten quality lottery picks like Russ, Randle, Ingram. We have some young talent. However it seems we are sort of stuck now unable to make that push out.
We certainly could benefit with wins when Russ/Randle hit their primes in 2 years. Ingram too. However the downside of being lottery every year and not landing a Lebron, Durant, Westbrook, Dwight Howard, Anthony Davis etc. type of player is what we're going through. We are not the only team but that's how it is.
For all the 6-7 teams that consistently stay in the lottery up high like we were the last few years, only one really strikes gold. Even as good as the Wolves talent is, they've made so many changes and yet still stuck there.
It's a tough hill to climb. I have patience, but I also think this is the downside of being a perennial lottery team. You've got to strike gold with one of your picks, as in the guy being a quick superstar/franchise player. For every team that lands that kind of player, there's teams like us who are filled with players that are good but not great enough to make a change in the franchise's direction.
I'm still hoping Mitch has one last magic wand move. There are some all-stars in their primes on the move. A move like that could speed up the goal of being a playoff team. Right now I feel we are still 2 years away from realistically making the playoffs (meaning I see us as a lottery team next year as well). A trade that can speed that up, would really help. I'm sure Mitch is looking. |
I've never had a time-table or believe that NBA ball clubs have ironclad formulas. There is a reason, I can name all the champions of the past 30+ years. That's because only a handful of teams are fortunate, and many don't win. I also don't believe the Lakers franchise got all their titles through the sheer brilliance of Buss and West. Sure, they were a great combo, but I recognize how much they lucked out also. That's the thing with impatient fans and fans who love to hate on current management, they think everything that happened in the glory days were all through careful planning, and making all the right decisions. Nope, there was truck load of luck also. Luck is like, to borrow Stu's words, Mr. Momentum! You just don't know when it's coming or going. I felt this year was going to be a turn-around year. Well, it is sorta, considering where we're coming from. But honestly, I thought playoffs and 40+ wins. But yeah, doesn't seem like it yet. Baby steps, baby steps. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:21 am Post subject: |
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| SuperboyReformed wrote: | it all depends on a lot...
the original tankers of the modern era were...the spurs.
they tanked, and won immediately.
they were #2 or #3 team in the west for another 4 years.
then they won again.
compared to us...
we tanked
we are NOT anywhere near playoffs
will we win a ring in 4 years?
totally doable.
but compared to spurs, they had a head start. |
David Robinson, still in his prime, went out for a season with an injury. Getting Duncan was the result of that and then you basically got a top 10 all-time pick (which is rare in and of itself) AND a top 30 all-time player coming back in the same year. That's not exactly replicable.
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nash
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:05 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | SuperboyReformed wrote: | it all depends on a lot...
the original tankers of the modern era were...the spurs.
they tanked, and won immediately.
they were #2 or #3 team in the west for another 4 years.
then they won again.
compared to us...
we tanked
we are NOT anywhere near playoffs
will we win a ring in 4 years?
totally doable.
but compared to spurs, they had a head start. |
David Robinson, still in his prime, went out for a season with an injury. Getting Duncan was the result of that and then you basically got a top 10 all-time pick (which is rare in and of itself) AND a top 30 all-time player coming back in the same year. That's not exactly replicable. |
It was like a team with Kareem drafting Magic.
The unfortunate thing about us is that after three seasons tanking one have to be really delusional to say there is a sure superstar in the making in our roster. We can have, but it's too early to say it. |
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LakerDYnasty72
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:34 am Post subject: |
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I've got a lot of respect for some of you on this board, including the op. That said, I need your help in defining what "tank" means. Does it mean:
1. Deliberately selling off of assets to position oneself to benefit in the draft?
2. Sitting better players for inferior ones to lose?
I've just never felt we tanked. I've always felt we were just bad with no need to do anything deliberate to lose. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:34 am Post subject: |
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| nash wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | SuperboyReformed wrote: | it all depends on a lot...
the original tankers of the modern era were...the spurs.
they tanked, and won immediately.
they were #2 or #3 team in the west for another 4 years.
then they won again.
compared to us...
we tanked
we are NOT anywhere near playoffs
will we win a ring in 4 years?
totally doable.
but compared to spurs, they had a head start. |
David Robinson, still in his prime, went out for a season with an injury. Getting Duncan was the result of that and then you basically got a top 10 all-time pick (which is rare in and of itself) AND a top 30 all-time player coming back in the same year. That's not exactly replicable. |
It was like a team with Kareem drafting Magic.
The unfortunate thing about us is that after three seasons tanking one have to be really delusional to say there is a sure superstar in the making in our roster. We can have, but it's too early to say it. |
It's not delusional, and I've never even said we have a surefire superstar.
What's delusional is people proclaiming that a 19, 20, even 22 year old player is a bust already.
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LakersRGolden
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 11:37 am Post subject: |
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| parsons777 wrote: | Time to championship, Example GSW:
2014-15 67 15 Champs Big 3, 14 seasons
2013-14 51 31
2012-13 47 35 Iggy trade 1st, 2014/2017
2011-12 23 43 Green, 35th
2010-11 36 46 Klay, 11th
2009-10 26 56
2008-09 29 53 Curry, 7th
At the end of 2014-15, GSW's Big 3 (Curry, Klay and Green) had 14 Seasons under their belts
Lakers trajectory:
2019-20 Champs? JR, 5 Dlo, 5 Ingram, 4
2018-19 JR, 4 Dlo, 4 Ingram, 3
2017-18 JR, 3 Dlo, 3 Ingram, 2
2016-17 JR, 2 Dlo, 2 Ingram, 1
2015-16 Ingram, 2nd
2014-15 Dlo, 2nd
2013-14 JR, 7th
We got some time to wait.  |
In '08, GS already had Monte Ellis who netted them Jackson and Bogut. We don't have someone like that so we're starting even further behind their rebuild. |
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laker4life
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 12:22 pm Post subject: Re: Not easy to rise back up after tanking. |
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| Runway8 wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | Many of us - myself included - were for tanking. We have reaped the benefits. We have gotten quality lottery picks like Russ, Randle, Ingram. We have some young talent. However it seems we are sort of stuck now unable to make that push out.
We certainly could benefit with wins when Russ/Randle hit their primes in 2 years. Ingram too. However the downside of being lottery every year and not landing a Lebron, Durant, Westbrook, Dwight Howard, Anthony Davis etc. type of player is what we're going through. We are not the only team but that's how it is.
For all the 6-7 teams that consistently stay in the lottery up high like we were the last few years, only one really strikes gold. Even as good as the Wolves talent is, they've made so many changes and yet still stuck there.
It's a tough hill to climb. I have patience, but I also think this is the downside of being a perennial lottery team. You've got to strike gold with one of your picks, as in the guy being a quick superstar/franchise player. For every team that lands that kind of player, there's teams like us who are filled with players that are good but not great enough to make a change in the franchise's direction.
I'm still hoping Mitch has one last magic wand move. There are some all-stars in their primes on the move. A move like that could speed up the goal of being a playoff team. Right now I feel we are still 2 years away from realistically making the playoffs (meaning I see us as a lottery team next year as well). A trade that can speed that up, would really help. I'm sure Mitch is looking. |
I've never had a time-table or believe that NBA ball clubs have ironclad formulas. There is a reason, I can name all the champions of the past 30+ years. That's because only a handful of teams are fortunate, and many don't win. I also don't believe the Lakers franchise got all their titles through the sheer brilliance of Buss and West. Sure, they were a great combo, but I recognize how much they lucked out also. That's the thing with impatient fans and fans who love to hate on current management, they think everything that happened in the glory days were all through careful planning, and making all the right decisions. Nope, there was truck load of luck also. Luck is like, to borrow Stu's words, Mr. Momentum! You just don't know when it's coming or going. I felt this year was going to be a turn-around year. Well, it is sorta, considering where we're coming from. But honestly, I thought playoffs and 40+ wins. But yeah, doesn't seem like it yet. Baby steps, baby steps. |
Your historical perspective is accurate.
It required a little luck plus a lot of correct picks, trades, signings and moves by the Front Office.
Getting Horry, Ariza, Gasol, D Fiisher and Fox were shrewd moves. Not luck.
In the 80s, we got Mychal Thompson which helped us win an additional two championships.
The Lakers were able to sign Bob Mcadoo and trade of Bryan Scott.
Also get Pat Riley as a coach.
All of these moves were instrumental in our success. |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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| vanexelent wrote: | | Between Showtime and the Lake Show we went over a decade before we won a ring. I never once grew impatient with our teams in between. |
However, during that span we also made two trips to the finals and four trips to the western conference semi-finals. So while we weren't winning rings, every year the fans could feel we were in contention.
What's different now is we're heading into our fourth straight year of not making the playoffs and we have no particular reason, at this point, to expect things to change anytime soon.
I mean, it's easy not to grow impatient when a "down" season is winning 61 games and making the conference finals. Put it this way: Our "down" period during that span was better than many of the best periods in many teams entire history.
What concerns people now isn't just the losing, but the growing realization that many of the natural advantages we had in the past in attracting talent have disappeared. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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Why do I keep thinking of that scene in Rocky when he's driving the Lamborghini after Apollo died with the 80s ballad hit "No Easy Way Out."
Replace Rocky with Mitch and Jim sitting shotgun with images of Kobe blowing out his Achilles, Stern vetoing the CP3 trade, and so on?
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1hu2ren3dui4
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Nash and Howard trades basically guaranteed misery at worst and mediocrity at best into the next decade. |
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jonnybravo
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | | Good post wolf. This was the discussion we were having during the tanking, that losing begets losing, and that it is really hard to get out of. It is actually really hard to get out of each tier (bottom of lottery, top of lottery, bottom playoff team, mid playoff team), and there are few shortcuts to do it, but plenty of shortcuts to not. |
Yep. Kyrie Irving who is a consensus top 20 player in the NBA led his team to the worse record in the NBA for his first 3-4 seasons. Not a bad team. The worse team. Multiple draft picks. Multiple trades and free agent signings. Still the worse team.
It took something seismic (Lebron) for them to get out of that losing treadmill.
It's not inconceivable that we can still rack up another 15-20 wins and come close to doubling our win total. That to me is a monster of a leap. We're in the midst of some bad losing so it's hard to see the forest but we're a better team this year.
The new CBA though is an absolute gut punch.
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Treble Clef
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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| 55 wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | I give Omar/24 credit in that I distinctly recall him arguing against tanking repeatedly. It's one thing to do it a year, but it's tough to get back up after you've established that losing year after year.
What I'm hoping for is either one of Russ/Randle/Ingram develop into a superstar or we can trade for one. Without a superstar it's real tough to make the playoffs year after year with a young team such as ours. We are simply lacking that consistent engine. |
The being-okay-with-losing mentality is a big part of the blame for losing big leads and not being able to close out games. They lack a pressured situation of win or die mentality. I was hoping Deng & Mozgov would help with that. |
I think Jerry West said something about this with the Warriors. It could have been someone else but the gist of it was that it was important to remove the parts of the team that were accustomed to losing. I thought it sounded kind of crazy but when you join a team like the Lakers where no one on the team has ever been part of a winning atmosphere there, I can see how new guys could learn to just accept it the same way the veterans have. |
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