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eddiejonze
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Joined: 19 Dec 2013
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 Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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When netflix came along blockbuster video didn't take it seriously, when uber came along the taxi industry didn't take it seriously. People laughed at Sam hinkie but going forward with the new cba it is going to become a new economic reality to rebuild thru multiple drafts.
That means tanking and the teams will decide what's best for THEIR investment, it's not an issue of who's "more of a fan" tanking just seems to make economic sense in a big market.
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emplay
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 11:13 pm Post subject: |
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i've told multiple people with the Lakers they need to treat their team like they too are in a small market - the game has changed, fair or no, it has
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ChickenStu
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Joined: 25 Apr 2015
Posts: 31921
Location: Anaheim, CA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 1:11 am Post subject: |
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| For the record, I'm totally with emplay on this one. We don't have to actively tank. Just prioritize getting the young guys minutes. The losses will happen naturally. (They already are.) Keeping the pick, which then means we don't owe any firsts to Orlando, would be enormous in the long run. |
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babyskyhook
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Joined: 15 Jul 2009
Posts: 18492
Location: The Garden Island
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| Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 6:54 am Post subject: |
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| ChickenStu wrote: | | For the record, I'm totally with emplay on this one. We don't have to actively tank. Just prioritize getting the young guys minutes. The losses will happen naturally. (They already are.) Keeping the pick, which then means we don't owe any firsts to Orlando, would be enormous in the long run. |
+ 1,000
They don't have to "tank" per se- they will increase the odds of keeping the pick naturally by doing what they should be doing anyway- prioritizing the development of the young guys by playing them big minutes- including Zubac.
If they win games with the young guns playing big minutes- great.
But winning with Lou exploding off the bench doesn't help as much in the long run as forcing the young guys to swim in the deep end and learn the lessons they need to learn. Move Lou and Seaggy for young players/picks is the right move here. They need as many shots as possible to add potential stars to this young core that would be on the same timetable as the other young guys.
With this new CBA, we'll need to "grow our own", so increasing the odds of drafting/developing All Star-level players should be priority 1B going forward, along with priority 1A, which is to develop the young core that we already have. Both of those priorities will be served by playing the young guys big minutes for the rest of this season. |
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SGVL1
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Joined: 02 Apr 2014
Posts: 845
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| Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 8:15 am Post subject: |
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| We really only have to worry about Brooklyn and Miami. We are the worst team in the west barring a few fire sales. Philly has found something in Embiid. If LAL finishes 23-59 to 25-57 they should be bottom 3-4. Dunno their odds at that point but it will make lottery night at least interesting. The run in December ruined the season. A bunch of wins or a streak of some sort now would be meaningless. The tigers have shown their stripes. Let's not all of a sudden run into some wins after completely going in the toilet in December. Finish the job and package this pick (don't like this draft at all) with a combo of anyone not named Ingram, for an actual star |
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fontana3d
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Joined: 22 Mar 2013
Posts: 3794
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| Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 8:20 am Post subject: |
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| SGVL1 wrote: | | We really only have to worry about Brooklyn and Miami. We are the worst team in the west barring a few fire sales. Philly has found something in Embiid. If LAL finishes 23-59 to 25-57 they should be bottom 3-4. Dunno their odds at that point but it will make lottery night at least interesting. The run in December ruined the season. A bunch of wins or a streak of some sort now would be meaningless. The tigers have shown their stripes. Let's not all of a sudden run into some wins after completely going in the toilet in December. Finish the job and package this pick (don't like this draft at all) with a combo of anyone not named Ingram, for an actual star |
The problem is that no gm wants to trade with the Lakers, and also teams will call for Ingram first because everyone else's values are low or gone. |
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babyskyhook
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Joined: 15 Jul 2009
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| Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 8:45 am Post subject: |
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Brooklyn will finish with the worst record in the NBA.
No one else is going to be anywhere near that bad.
The good news is that all of the other teams have been winning games, so the Lakers can win more games than they won last year and still end up with the second best lotto odds.
If that's how it plays out due to the young guys playing major minutes from here on out, that would be ideal. |
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Inspector Gadget
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| Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 8:52 am Post subject: |
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| I would never see the day that Laker fans are hoping we lose games, while making the youth look bad in the process, part of the reason why Luke was bought in is to teach these guys how to win, and you think tanking is the answer to that, well I got 1 news for you..thank god the Lakers don't think like you guys. |
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fontana3d
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Joined: 22 Mar 2013
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| Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 8:55 am Post subject: |
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| Inspector Gadget wrote: | | I would never see the day that Laker fans are hoping we lose games, while making the youth look bad in the process, part of the reason why Luke was bought in is to teach these guys how to win, and you think tanking is the answer to that, well I got 1 news for you..thank god the Lakers don't think like you guys. |
Well it's just that we try to win, but we're not good enough to win with the bad defense, and inexperience that also might push us to a top 3 or top 2 pick. |
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Inspector Gadget
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| Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:01 am Post subject: |
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| fontana3d wrote: | | Inspector Gadget wrote: | | I would never see the day that Laker fans are hoping we lose games, while making the youth look bad in the process, part of the reason why Luke was bought in is to teach these guys how to win, and you think tanking is the answer to that, well I got 1 news for you..thank god the Lakers don't think like you guys. |
Well it's just that we try to win, but we're not good enough to win with the bad defense, and inexperience that also might push us to a top 3 or top 2 pick. |
You still need to teach these guys how to win, i don't care what happens and if we lose games I will hold out hope that the youth is at least progressing. |
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1hu2ren3dui4
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| Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:16 am Post subject: |
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I think nick and Lou streaky shooting have been worth a couple wins. They don't always come through but have definitely carried the team for a few games.
That said getting a lotto pick and keeping the Orlando pick would be such a good stroke of luck. Webber draft and Wiggins draft come to mind as franchise changing events. |
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laker50
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| Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:29 am Post subject: |
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There is no question that loosing is better, and keep two big draft picks would be better.
So the Lakers have degenerated to this. And the FO put themselves in this position. For Nash who never even played except hurt?
And Howard to never wanted to be in LA.
Those two moves put LA where they are now.
The best move would be shaking up Lakers management a bit. J. Buss will still be owner. But stop running the Lakers like a family pizza shop. |
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Shaber
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| Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:51 am Post subject: |
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Loosing is never better.
Picks are nice, and Lakers made a mistake trading all the picks away. Sometimes when you gamble, you win, sometimes not.
But loosing on purpose is just dumb, especially when you try to develop young players in to winners.
Winning is a habit. You can't have that when you loose all the time. No team will turn the switch and become a winning team after being a loosing team for long. You must start moving towards winning. The sooner you start, the sooner you can get there.
I can only hope to never see the tanking days again.
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Lakers depth chart
PG Johnson / Goodrich
SG Bryant / West / Scott
SF Baylor / Worthy / Cooper
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fontana3d
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Joined: 22 Mar 2013
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| Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 10:02 am Post subject: |
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| s_habe wrote: | Loosing is never better.
Picks are nice, and Lakers made a mistake trading all the picks away. Sometimes when you gamble, you win, sometimes not.
But loosing on purpose is just dumb, especially when you try to develop young players in to winners.
Winning is a habit. You can't have that when you loose all the time. No team will turn the switch and become a winning team after being a loosing team for long. You must start moving towards winning. The sooner you start, the sooner you can get there.
I can only hope to never see the tanking days again. |
Well we're hoping that this year is the last of the tank since our debts will be paid up soon to Orlando and Philly. |
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yinoma2001
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Joined: 19 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 10:03 am Post subject: |
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| 1hu2ren3dui4 wrote: | I think nick and Lou streaky shooting have been worth a couple wins. They don't always come through but have definitely carried the team for a few games.
That said getting a lotto pick and keeping the Orlando pick would be such a good stroke of luck. Webber draft and Wiggins draft come to mind as franchise changing events. |
At the end of the day it's all luck
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Treble Clef
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Joined: 20 Nov 2012
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| Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 10:57 am Post subject: |
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| Fortysixn2 wrote: | | emplay wrote: | | If the Lakers were a viable bubble playoff team, I might have a different opinion, they're not |
Nope. Name one time where tanking in the NBA ever lead to getting studs that lead to a championship. What happens is the the stud goes to the crappy team who has stripped the cupboard bare to get that top pick, instead of being terrible they become a borderline playoff team or a bottom 4seed and then he leaves and wins a championship somewhere else cuz that organization is permeated with the stench of losing.
The only time it's actually kind of worked out is with Cleveland because they got the top pick 3 out of 4 years and Lebron is so good and decided to come back then convinced CLE to flip Wiggins for Love. So yeah, I guess if you get the top pick 4 times in 12 years and end up having one of the top players of all time in the mix then maybe you win a championship or two. Otherwise it's fruitless and creates a losing culture.
If you take the Cleveland thing out of the equation, the only time that the 1st pick in the draft has won a championship with the team who drafted him in the last 20 years was Duncan.
If anything, history shows that tanking is the worst way to build a championship roster and that getting a top 3 pick isn't that important. What is important is to get good players in the draft during your down years, have a positive winning culture and then grab a superstar in his prime in Free Agency when your drafted players are peaking.
Just my opinion, but the tank is wrong and Emplay is wrong on this one. |
Well winning a championship typically requires having 1-2 of the best players in the game. You can get them through the draft or through trades/free agency. Most of the teams that won championships did so with their 1st or 2nd best player coming from the draft. Cavs got LeBron and Kyrie that way, Warriors got Curry and Klay in the lottery, Spurs had Duncan, Heat had Wade, and so on.
The Lakers are having a hard time getting that guy in free agency over the last few years but if another Pau Gasol situation comes up, they'll have the draft picks to get it done.
It's unfair to say that most teams who tank don't end up winning because most teams that don't tank don't win either. |
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justsomelakerfan
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Joined: 16 Jul 2016
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| Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 10:57 am Post subject: |
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| emplay wrote: | | i've told multiple people with the Lakers they need to treat their team like they too are in a small market - the game has changed, fair or no, it has |
Laker Exceptionalism must die from the fans and the front office. The game has indeed changed.
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Bard207
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| Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 11:04 am Post subject: |
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| emplay wrote: | | i've told multiple people with the Lakers they need to treat their team like they too are in a small market - the game has changed, fair or no, it has |
They apparently have yet to buy in to your suggestion since you wrote Lakers Must Prioritize Keeping Top-3 Protected Pick over Winning to try and nudge them towards that objective.
An alternate possibility is that the people with the Lakers that you spoke to have signaled their desire to try and keep the Top - 3 pick and that you are doing them a favor by writing Lakers Must Prioritize Keeping Top-3 Protected Pick over Winning. Your goal with the writeup would be to prepare the fanbase for moves by the Front Office to try and keep the Top-3 pick. |
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MJST
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| Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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The Lakers will try to win every game and the wins and losses will fall where they may. If those wins/losses mean we keep the pick than we keep the pick, if they mean we win 30 games, we win 30 games, if they mean we pick 4th and Philly it, they mean we pick4th and Philly gets it.
But we're not throwing away a season because of the lie that 'young players develop when you just prioritize their minutes over any veterans'
Go watch how the Nuggets handle Mudiay and how much he's 'progressed'.
Then watch how much Ingram has progressed in half a season despite being 'held back' and 'minutes not prioritized'.
This black/white viewpoint of "More minutes = more/faster development" is just untrue.
Our young guys are developing just fine and at a solid rate given the current circumstance and the Lakers are likely to continue in that way and are content to let the wins/losses fall where they may.
We'll prioritize winning AND development as if they can actually be one in the same as opposed to something you have to pick over the other. (gasp, is that even possible!?!?!?)
Anyway, to expect any less would be doing a disservice to the team, the talent we already have and the coach we have.
We didn't win 16 games last year till March 30th, it's January 22nd and we're at 16 wins after beating the hottest team in January sans the Warriors in our last game.
We're progressing just fine. |
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tox
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Joined: 16 Nov 2015
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| Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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| justsomelakerfan wrote: | | emplay wrote: | | i've told multiple people with the Lakers they need to treat their team like they too are in a small market - the game has changed, fair or no, it has |
Laker Exceptionalism must die from the fans and the front office. The game has indeed changed. |
#MakeTheLakersGreatAgain |
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eddiejonze
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Joined: 19 Dec 2013
Posts: 7251
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| Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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| tox wrote: | | justsomelakerfan wrote: | | emplay wrote: | | i've told multiple people with the Lakers they need to treat their team like they too are in a small market - the game has changed, fair or no, it has |
Laker Exceptionalism must die from the fans and the front office. The game has indeed changed. |
#MakeTheLakersGreatAgain |
#GrabThemByTheCBA
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Jello's Jigglin'
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| Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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I am in the "trade Lou Williams and/or Swaggy" side. Or even if we don't trade them, our youth needs to be getting more time at their expense if necessary. Wins is not the metric that I use to consider success with the Lakers at this point. The metric I use is growth of young players combined with running our offense and defense effectively. If we use this year to get our youth time and repetitions, wins will come in the future. The culture should be "pay attention to details, be engaged, give plus effort, and do things well". Good things will come in the future if this is the mantra.
I will add that trading Williams or Swaggy could lead to another first rounder as backup should we lose our early first, or could produce another young player that can compiment our young core and grow with them (maybe a lock-down SG or complimentary center, WCS?) |
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Fruscas
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Joined: 12 Mar 2013
Posts: 5130
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| Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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| no tank, just try to trade swag and lou for youth |
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Vin
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Joined: 03 Jan 2013
Posts: 6005
Location: France
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| Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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Definately for trading Lou/Swaggy. Give the young core all the minutes and call it a season. Keep the pick, sit through another ping pong ball session and hope to get lucky again.
Sad that we're here again. |
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LakerMindLA
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Joined: 26 Dec 2008
Posts: 5344
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| Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Inspector Gadget wrote: | I agree, just look how long it took the Celtics and Clippers after years of being bad, the Celtics didn't become contenders by tanking for a top pick they did by trading for Garnett and Allen and even when you look at the Clippers they didn't become WC contenders until they acquired Paul.
This team isn't gonna get back on top by aiming for a top pick and no they aren't gonna trade it for a superstar cause no one is gonna help the Lakers. |
It took the Celtics so long because they never went into full tank mode and had to wait through so many drafts in the end the accumulate enough assets to trade for players and still have enough to be competitive. In the end, it was their tanking that helped them get Garnett and Allen. Allen was traded directly for a draft pick and Garnett came for players the Celtics drafted in the mid-first round.
The Lakers are really 1 asset short still. Tanking this year is extremely important for developing a championship contender.
I'd also challenge you to name a championship team that in which there best or 2nd best player didn't come through the draft. |
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