OFFICIAL BRANDON INGRAM THREAD
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mj32
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 11:57 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
mj32 wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
mj32 wrote:
Advanced metric guys are smarter than everyone else. Please don't argue with them.


That's a crap argument. Do better.


Ok, it's simple. I've coached AAU and High school in centinela valley off and on for a long time. I know many people that are in the business and 90% of them think BI is the best prospect on the Lakers regardless of what stat geeks think. If you've played or watched ball for some time, you don't need to Look at "advanced metrics" to know who has value and has the potential to be a great player.

Maybe I'm too old and out of touch, I don't know, but when I see stats that indicate BI is the worst player in the league, I just shake my head and laugh. If only he just played 10 minutes a game...
Based on my experience BI and DLO are both fantastic prospects. I hope they both succeed. It's not rocket science folks


Then why do NBA people do exactly that?


Competitive advantage, of course. Trying to assign quantity to attributes. But I'm an old guy that's been around the game a long time. Maybe that's not good, but maybe it is. Is it the guy who has the experience that can tell in 5 minutes if the player has the potential to be great or is it the stat guy. Who knows...i'll stick to my gut.
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GoldenThroat
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 12:10 am    Post subject:

mj32 wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
mj32 wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
mj32 wrote:
Advanced metric guys are smarter than everyone else. Please don't argue with them.


That's a crap argument. Do better.


Ok, it's simple. I've coached AAU and High school in centinela valley off and on for a long time. I know many people that are in the business and 90% of them think BI is the best prospect on the Lakers regardless of what stat geeks think. If you've played or watched ball for some time, you don't need to Look at "advanced metrics" to know who has value and has the potential to be a great player.

Maybe I'm too old and out of touch, I don't know, but when I see stats that indicate BI is the worst player in the league, I just shake my head and laugh. If only he just played 10 minutes a game...
Based on my experience BI and DLO are both fantastic prospects. I hope they both succeed. It's not rocket science folks


Then why do NBA people do exactly that?


Competitive advantage, of course. Trying to assign quantity to attributes. But I'm an old guy that's been around the game a long time. Maybe that's not good, but maybe it is. Is it the guy who has the experience that can tell in 5 minutes if the player has the potential to be great or is it the stat guy. Who knows...i'll stick to my gut.


I think most of us who referenced him being the worst player in the NBA by several metrics also saw him as a player who could potentially be great. Both things can be true at the same time. He's the guy that virtually all of us wanted, because he's quite obviously talented, and he was also the basketball equivalent of a newborn foal and absolutely terrible the first 2 months of the year. I don't think you even need numbers to have seen that.

None of those things are mutually exclusive.
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mj32
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 12:22 am    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
mj32 wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
mj32 wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
mj32 wrote:
Advanced metric guys are smarter than everyone else. Please don't argue with them.


That's a crap argument. Do better.


Ok, it's simple. I've coached AAU and High school in centinela valley off and on for a long time. I know many people that are in the business and 90% of them think BI is the best prospect on the Lakers regardless of what stat geeks think. If you've played or watched ball for some time, you don't need to Look at "advanced metrics" to know who has value and has the potential to be a great player.

Maybe I'm too old and out of touch, I don't know, but when I see stats that indicate BI is the worst player in the league, I just shake my head and laugh. If only he just played 10 minutes a game...
Based on my experience BI and DLO are both fantastic prospects. I hope they both succeed. It's not rocket science folks


Then why do NBA people do exactly that?


Competitive advantage, of course. Trying to assign quantity to attributes. But I'm an old guy that's been around the game a long time. Maybe that's not good, but maybe it is. Is it the guy who has the experience that can tell in 5 minutes if the player has the potential to be great or is it the stat guy. Who knows...i'll stick to my gut.


I think most of us who referenced him being the worst player in the NBA by several metrics also saw him as a player who could potentially be great. Both things can be true at the same time. He's the guy that virtually all of us wanted, because he's quite obviously talented, and he was also the basketball equivalent of a newborn foal and absolutely terrible the first 2 months of the year. I don't think you even need numbers to have seen that.

None of those things are mutually exclusive.


Understood. I felt there was another agenda, but maybe i was wrong. I think we can both agree that IF BI puts in the work, he can someday be great. Same with DLO. I know that's a big IF, especially with them being young and with the expectations of being a laker. I've seen so many promising players flame out who had more talent, but I'm honestly rooting for both
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GoldenThroat
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 12:42 am    Post subject:

mj32 wrote:
Understood. I felt there was another agenda, but maybe i was wrong. I think we can both agree that IF BI puts in the work, he can someday be great. Same with DLO. I know that's a big IF, especially with them being young and with the expectations of being a laker. I've seen so many promising players flame out who had more talent, but I'm honestly rooting for both


The additional subtext was "hey, you were patient with a guy who was flat out terrible for the first 2 months...why wasn't (and still isn't) that same courtesy extended to Russell?

I agree that both guys have remarkable potential and I'm thrilled with both of them. I think we're way too "zoomed in" as modern sports fans, gleaning too much from the day-to-day ups and downs, but when you look at where they are relative to their ages, position, and responsibilities, I think we're in great shape...even if that's not gonna bear much fruit for a couple of years because of their youth.
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Tony Anapolis
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 1:26 am    Post subject:

Brandon Ingram has been absolutely terrible this year in the big scheme of things.

That said, I think he has star potential and potentially our best player going forward.

It sucks, but even the Lakers know he is probably at least 3 years away.
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nash
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 2:59 am    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
parsons777 wrote:
I can tell you he is playing more minutes than any other rookie this year.

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/scoring-per-game/sort/avgMinutes/qualified/false/position/rookies


His points per minute ranks 47th amongst rookies.


lol, we are going to have an Ingram P&M thread soon

He is increasing his efficiency. Not taking bad shots he can't make is a good thing, he is averaging double digits in points this month, not great, but not bad. A high usage is not desirable if you are not reasonably efficient doing his thing.

Dlo TS% this season would place him 89th among guards averaging at least 20 min per game.

Ingram points per minute ranking 47th amongst rookies is not that concerning with his efficiency going up while he keeps making the extra pass without turning the ball over even when it is not going to count as an assist. He may not be special, but he plays the right way, is unselfish, has good physical tools to play his position and is showing a lot of progress so I believe it is enough to be ok with him at this stage. It seems like he is aware and willing to work on things he should improve so time will tell the kind of player he is going to be.


Last edited by nash on Sun Jan 22, 2017 3:06 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 3:04 am    Post subject:

tox wrote:
I think most would agree more with RPM, with the benefit of hindsight


RPM tell us to keep Nance over any other young asset.

Well, I love Nance so I'm fine, but I really don't believe he is going to be a franchise player.
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tox
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 3:19 am    Post subject:

nash wrote:
tox wrote:
I think most would agree more with RPM, with the benefit of hindsight


RPM tell us to keep Nance over any other young asset.

Well, I love Nance so I'm fine, but I really don't believe he is going to be a franchise player.

First of all, Nance is basically older than every other young player, so no it doesn't.

Anyways, the fundamental argument you are making only works if you don't understand how RPM works and see it as a black box. As it happens to be, I know exactly how RPM works and I understand its limitations. What you are missing is the fact that RPM [essentially] judges how effective a player is in his role.

RPM confirms what we knew from watching Okafor: he might put up numbers, but he does so at the expense of his team. There's a role for him in a team somewhere, but it's not as the centerpiece of the offense as the "eye test" folks were convinced he was.

RPM confirms what most of us see watching Nance: he is efficient on offense, is a great defender, doesn't make mistakes, and makes all the right little plays. The team is just better when he's playing. BUT he doesn't have a big role.

Your mistake is in assuming that this means LNJ is "better" than anyone. No, that's not what it means. If you only played Shaq at point guard and as the lead ballhandler, you better bet he'll have a God awful RPM. That doesn't mean he's a bad player; it means he's ineffective in his role.
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nash
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 3:39 am    Post subject:

tox wrote:
nash wrote:
tox wrote:
I think most would agree more with RPM, with the benefit of hindsight


RPM tell us to keep Nance over any other young asset.

Well, I love Nance so I'm fine, but I really don't believe he is going to be a franchise player.

First of all, Nance is basically older than every other young player, so no it doesn't.

Anyways, the fundamental argument you are making only works if you don't understand how RPM works and see it as a black box. As it happens to be, I know exactly how RPM works and I understand its limitations. What you are missing is the fact that RPM [essentially] judges how effective a player is in his role.

RPM confirms what we knew from watching Okafor: he might put up numbers, but he does so at the expense of his team. There's a role for him in a team somewhere, but it's not as the centerpiece of the offense as the "eye test" folks were convinced he was.

RPM confirms what most of us see watching Nance: he is efficient on offense, is a great defender, doesn't make mistakes, and makes all the right little plays. The team is just better when he's playing. BUT he doesn't have a big role.

Your mistake is in assuming that this means LNJ is "better" than anyone. No, that's not what it means. If you only played Shaq at point guard and as the lead ballhandler, you better bet he'll have a God awful RPM. That doesn't mean he's a bad player; it means he's ineffective in his role.


I agree 100% about everything you told.

I don't pay too much attention to Ingram's RPM yet exactly because at his age most players are entering the college and it is clear he is still too skinny among pros while I believe except by the center spot Luke has used him at every position.


Last edited by nash on Sun Jan 22, 2017 4:48 am; edited 1 time in total
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tox
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 3:44 am    Post subject:

nash wrote:
tox wrote:
nash wrote:
tox wrote:
I think most would agree more with RPM, with the benefit of hindsight


RPM tell us to keep Nance over any other young asset.

Well, I love Nance so I'm fine, but I really don't believe he is going to be a franchise player.

First of all, Nance is basically older than every other young player, so no it doesn't.

Anyways, the fundamental argument you are making only works if you don't understand how RPM works and see it as a black box. As it happens to be, I know exactly how RPM works and I understand its limitations. What you are missing is the fact that RPM [essentially] judges how effective a player is in his role.

RPM confirms what we knew from watching Okafor: he might put up numbers, but he does so at the expense of his team. There's a role for him in a team somewhere, but it's not as the centerpiece of the offense as the "eye test" folks were convinced he was.

RPM confirms what most of us see watching Nance: he is efficient on offense, is a great defender, doesn't make mistakes, and makes all the right little plays. The team is just better when he's playing. BUT he doesn't have a big role.

Your mistake is in assuming that this means LNJ is "better" than anyone. No, that's not what it means. If you only played Shaq at point guard and as the lead ballhandler, you better bet he'll have a God awful RPM. That doesn't mean he's a bad player; it means he's ineffective in his role.


I agree 100% with everything you told.

I don't pay too much attention to Ingram's RPM yet exactly because at his age most players are entering the college and it is clear he is still too skinny among pros while I believe except by the center spot Luke has used him at every position.


Believe me, I could write an entire article on why we shouldn't pay heed to Ingram's RPM value. However, in the case of Okafor, the terrible RPM was actually a warning sign of certain limitations of his playstyle. It's not strictly about age and future development. This is why I always stress every stat needs to be contextualized.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 5:31 am    Post subject:

Stats are not everything (actually some mean nothing). What happened to the eye test. BI is going to be a stud. The kid is exceeding expectations on the defensive side of the ball (our best and most versatile defender) and things are starting to progress nicely on the offensive side of the ball. Larry does alot of the little things that win games (EVERY team needs a Nance). Dlo will be a beast down the road. We need one stud to take some of the pressure off these kids.
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kobetimeeverytime
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 7:29 am    Post subject:

kid has star potential. he passes the eye test, i'm not worried about Brandon
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 7:37 am    Post subject:

kobetimeeverytime wrote:
kid has star potential. he passes the eye test, i'm not worried about Brandon


He has all the intangibles. All he needs is seasoning and in time, through hard work, I have no doubt that he will be a star.

IMO his recent stretch of games have been quite impressive.

In fact during a nine-game stretch he has shot 48 percent from beyond the arc.
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Jakanzi
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:07 am    Post subject:

libertyballers.com, a Sixers blog, has a weekly post where they keep tabs on the Lakers and the chance of getting our pick. To me it's super interesting for me to read comments since they're people who are genuinely paying attention to our team, have paid close attention to the draft in the past couple years, and they're also in a funny situation where they want us to be bad, but not too bad.

Some of the their thoughts on Ingram:

Quote:
Getting caught up in the question “are the Sixers too good?” was understandable. However, it’s the opposite question for Los Angeles at the moment. The Lakers have finally reached the prestigious No. 4 spot, 0-5 in the last five games, due to defensive ineptitude

...

Chance of Pick Conveyance: Currently at 62.2 percent, which could drop drastically. Here’s to hoping for a Brandon Ingram pure breakout.


Quote:
Quote:
Does anyone really think Brandon Ingram or D’Angelo Russell are going to be stars in this league?

The Lakers are destined for a decade of ineptitude and I’m excited about it!

Sac drops to 5th overall by the end of the year.

Ingram can definitely be that guy, he has a lot of great skills that aren’t developed, and his slight frame is a real thing, but I think he could develop into a top 20 player if he takes the jump.

I agree on DLo. Lakers fans are getting sick of his immaturity and lack of effort on defense.

Both us and the Lakers are regretting not picking KP at this point, but since we have our potential stars in Embiid (and hopefully Simmons) missing on that pick isn’t as detrimental to us as it is to LA.

Quote:
I know it’s fun to bash the Lakers, but watching Brandon Ingram play is an exercise in watching a kid grow into a star. He looks like a very talented but skinny future star. Even though we compare everyone to Embiid it’s not a fair comparison. He has had two years of watching,learning,eating right,and exercising. Brandon hasn’t even had one off season. Clarkson,Randall,and Ingram are not that bad a nucleus.

Quote:
Quote:
If the lakers pick landed at 4 would you trade the them their pick back for Ingram?
I would

Quote:
By the eye test Ingram looks like he can be a star. He is so smooth, and has flashes of brilliance. I get it.

But his advanced numbers are among the worst ever for any rookie who has got major minutes. -4 DBPM puts him in elite company Those are scary names – Jah, Beasley, Mudiay, Morrison, DeJuan Wagner, Sharone Wright…. it is a murderers row of lottery busts.

I am not sure what to think. He has to improve so much just to be passable. But so much of his difficulty is due to youth and lack of strength. He simply isn’t NBA ready and is one of the youngest players ever.


Quote:
Brandon Ingram As Chandler Parsons With Defense - I sort of see that as of now. And peak Chandler Parsons with defense and who can switch is a really, really good player. The blocks and steals aren’t there, but his ability to move his feet etc. make for a good case he should be fine there.

User C wrote:

User B wrote:

User A wrote:
Ingram is destined for stardom


Lol I’ll bet you a set of sixers tickets he’ll never make the all NBA first team


Ingram should be a freshman in college this year, based on his age. So I would wait to see how his play is next year and compare that to rookie expectations.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:28 am    Post subject:

Andre2K wrote:
Ingram will never get the same amount of hate that DLO got. He's too humble, too likeable and not as polarizing. He also projects to have a higher ceiling, his length jumps out at you.



Putting the irrational DLo haters who have never given him a chance to the side, as they're in a category all their own, I think the above is true for most people. It's human nature. We like hard-working humble athletes, as many of us see ourselves in them.

I love Ingram's attitude, and it was a big reason I wanted him over Simmons, who seems entitled in much the same way DLo does. I thought the two of them together could be a disaster in terms of team chemistry, whereas a guy with Ingram's attitude is great for team chemistry and will hopefully affect DLo in a positive way.


And it's not a racial thing, at least not for me. From "The Boz" to "Johhny Football", cocky white guys who can't back it up are just as irritating to me as cocky black guys who can't back it up. When an athlete is brash, but backs it up- Ali, MJ, Kobe, Aaron Rogers, etc- I have no problem with it. If you are the best at what you do, then you're just stating a fact by saying it. (All of those guys had/have incredible work ethics btw.)

But if you declare yourself to be the best and then fail to perform at that level because you sometimes put out a half-ass effort, only play hard on one side of the ball, frequently play with a lackadaisical carelessness, and display an attitude that seems entitled, my advice to that athlete is to STFU about how great you are until you actually become great. Or at least until you show signs of real progress.


One of the things with Ingram is that he has been growing by leaps and bounds on both sides of the ball before our eyes since his first summer league game. That continued in the pre-season and now in the regular season. It's not consistent from game to game (it never is with anyone), but it's consistent over the longer timeline. DLo hasn't shown that type of progression, and because he has been so cocky, he's not getting the same kind of benefit of the doubt that Ingram would.


It also doesn't help DLo that he seems to place his personal glory above the team at times (such as when he's hit a big shot) in a way that puts some people off when combined with all of the other stuff listed above.


Bottom line- he doesn't look like a #2 pick in the draft most of the time, and in reality, he wasn't the 2nd best player in that draft. I doubt there would be anywhere near the same type of criticism of Porky if he was a Laker as there is of DLo. He is more productive offensively, exponentially more impactful on defense, has a great attitude, and brings it every game. I'm sure a lot of people think "If only they'd draftred Porky" every time DLo has a game where he looks hungover or like he isn't trying hard.

Ingram otoh, looks every bit like a #2 pick and potential franchise player. Combine that with his great attitude and noticeable progress, and he will never get criticized by rational people in the same way DLo will. (Again, leaving the irrational DLo haters aside, as they are a different species.)


It's not a racial thing- it applies to anyone in life: don't write checks with your mouth that you can't back up through performance.

I have no doubt that he has great physical gifts. I question his heart, mentality and his attitude. I hope DLo grows up and turns it around. It would be fantastic to have him develop into an AS. If he reaches his potential, he'd be a great part of a future championship team. Hopefully that happens for him and it happens as a Laker.
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babyskyhook
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:36 am    Post subject:

Jakanzi wrote:
libertyballers.com, a Sixers blog, has a weekly post where they keep tabs on the Lakers and the chance of getting our pick. To me it's super interesting for me to read comments since they're people who are genuinely paying attention to our team, have paid close attention to the draft in the past couple years, and they're also in a funny situation where they want us to be bad, but not too bad.

Some of the their thoughts on Ingram:

Quote:
Getting caught up in the question “are the Sixers too good?” was understandable. However, it’s the opposite question for Los Angeles at the moment. The Lakers have finally reached the prestigious No. 4 spot, 0-5 in the last five games, due to defensive ineptitude

...

Chance of Pick Conveyance: Currently at 62.2 percent, which could drop drastically. Here’s to hoping for a Brandon Ingram pure breakout.


Quote:
Quote:
Does anyone really think Brandon Ingram or D’Angelo Russell are going to be stars in this league?

The Lakers are destined for a decade of ineptitude and I’m excited about it!

Sac drops to 5th overall by the end of the year.

Ingram can definitely be that guy, he has a lot of great skills that aren’t developed, and his slight frame is a real thing, but I think he could develop into a top 20 player if he takes the jump.

I agree on DLo. Lakers fans are getting sick of his immaturity and lack of effort on defense.

Both us and the Lakers are regretting not picking KP at this point, but since we have our potential stars in Embiid (and hopefully Simmons) missing on that pick isn’t as detrimental to us as it is to LA.

Quote:
I know it’s fun to bash the Lakers, but watching Brandon Ingram play is an exercise in watching a kid grow into a star. He looks like a very talented but skinny future star. Even though we compare everyone to Embiid it’s not a fair comparison. He has had two years of watching,learning,eating right,and exercising. Brandon hasn’t even had one off season. Clarkson,Randall,and Ingram are not that bad a nucleus.

Quote:
Quote:
If the lakers pick landed at 4 would you trade the them their pick back for Ingram?
I would

Quote:
By the eye test Ingram looks like he can be a star. He is so smooth, and has flashes of brilliance. I get it.

But his advanced numbers are among the worst ever for any rookie who has got major minutes. -4 DBPM puts him in elite company Those are scary names – Jah, Beasley, Mudiay, Morrison, DeJuan Wagner, Sharone Wright…. it is a murderers row of lottery busts.

I am not sure what to think. He has to improve so much just to be passable. But so much of his difficulty is due to youth and lack of strength. He simply isn’t NBA ready and is one of the youngest players ever.


Quote:
Brandon Ingram As Chandler Parsons With Defense - I sort of see that as of now. And peak Chandler Parsons with defense and who can switch is a really, really good player. The blocks and steals aren’t there, but his ability to move his feet etc. make for a good case he should be fine there.

User C wrote:

User B wrote:

User A wrote:
Ingram is destined for stardom


Lol I’ll bet you a set of sixers tickets he’ll never make the all NBA first team


Ingram should be a freshman in college this year, based on his age. So I would wait to see how his play is next year and compare that to rookie expectations.



Thanks for posting! Great stuff.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:43 am    Post subject:

Good post, Jakanzi! There was some stuff about DLO in there too, are they low on him or still feel like he's got a chance to break out? I find his defensive woes to be overstated. I'm more concerned with his motor - not really kicking into another gear like Randle and even Brandon is starting to show - and his response on the court when his game is being challenged.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 10:01 am    Post subject:

Funny bc my friends who are 76ers fans think Dlo would have been a great fit with Embiid/Simmons (the latter bc they played and killed it together in HS).
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 10:27 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Funny bc my friends who are 76ers fans think Dlo would have been a great fit with Embiid/Simmons (the latter bc they played and killed it together in HS).


Oh absolutely. D'Angelo was Philly's darling of the 2015 draft
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 10:36 am    Post subject:

babyskyhook wrote:
Andre2K wrote:
Ingram will never get the same amount of hate that DLO got. He's too humble, too likeable and not as polarizing. He also projects to have a higher ceiling, his length jumps out at you.



Putting the irrational DLo haters who have never given him a chance to the side, as they're in a category all their own, I think the above is true for most people. It's human nature. We like hard-working humble athletes, as many of us see ourselves in them.

I love Ingram's attitude, and it was a big reason I wanted him over Simmons, who seems entitled in much the same way DLo does. I thought the two of them together could be a disaster in terms of team chemistry, whereas a guy with Ingram's attitude is great for team chemistry and will hopefully affect DLo in a positive way.


And it's not a racial thing, at least not for me. From "The Boz" to "Johhny Football", cocky white guys who can't back it up are just as irritating to me as cocky black guys who can't back it up. When an athlete is brash, but backs it up- Ali, MJ, Kobe, Aaron Rogers, etc- I have no problem with it. If you are the best at what you do, then you're just stating a fact by saying it. (All of those guys had/have incredible work ethics btw.)

But if you declare yourself to be the best and then fail to perform at that level because you sometimes put out a half-ass effort, only play hard on one side of the ball, frequently play with a lackadaisical carelessness, and display an attitude that seems entitled, my advice to that athlete is to (bleep) about how great you are until you actually become great. Or at least until you show signs of real progress.


One of the things with Ingram is that he has been growing by leaps and bounds on both sides of the ball before our eyes since his first summer league game. That continued in the pre-season and now in the regular season. It's not consistent from game to game (it never is with anyone), but it's consistent over the longer timeline. DLo hasn't shown that type of progression, and because he has been so cocky, he's not getting the same kind of benefit of the doubt that Ingram would.


It also doesn't help DLo that he seems to place his personal glory above the team at times (such as when he's hit a big shot) in a way that puts some people off when combined with all of the other stuff listed above.


Bottom line- he doesn't look like a #2 pick in the draft most of the time, and in reality, he wasn't the 2nd best player in that draft. I doubt there would be anywhere near the same type of criticism of Porky if he was a Laker as there is of DLo. He is more productive offensively, exponentially more impactful on defense, has a great attitude, and brings it every game. I'm sure a lot of people think "If only they'd draftred Porky" every time DLo has a game where he looks hungover or like he isn't trying hard.

Ingram otoh, looks every bit like a #2 pick and potential franchise player. Combine that with his great attitude and noticeable progress, and he will never get criticized by rational people in the same way DLo will. (Again, leaving the irrational DLo haters aside, as they are a different species.)


It's not a racial thing- it applies to anyone in life: don't write checks with your mouth that you can't back up through performance.

I have no doubt that he has great physical gifts. I question his heart, mentality and his attitude. I hope DLo grows up and turns it around. It would be fantastic to have him develop into an AS. If he reaches his potential, he'd be a great part of a future championship team. Hopefully that happens for him and it happens as a Laker.


Agreed. On all parts. Well put.
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Dave20
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 10:38 am    Post subject:

Andre2K wrote:
Ingram will never get the same amount of hate that DLO got. He's too humble, too likeable and not as polarizing. He also projects to have a higher ceiling, his length jumps out at you.


Russell is an easy target. Fans just don't like the cockiness and not backing it up. Also, after seeing 20 years of Kobe the lack of athleticism and speed from Russell makes his game not fun to watch. Ingram being humble and lets his play do the talking makes him much more likeable.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 10:43 am    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
mj32 wrote:
Understood. I felt there was another agenda, but maybe i was wrong. I think we can both agree that IF BI puts in the work, he can someday be great. Same with DLO. I know that's a big IF, especially with them being young and with the expectations of being a laker. I've seen so many promising players flame out who had more talent, but I'm honestly rooting for both


The additional subtext was "hey, you were patient with a guy who was flat out terrible for the first 2 months...why wasn't (and still isn't) that same courtesy extended to Russell?

I agree that both guys have remarkable potential and I'm thrilled with both of them. I think we're way too "zoomed in" as modern sports fans, gleaning too much from the day-to-day ups and downs, but when you look at where they are relative to their ages, position, and responsibilities, I think we're in great shape...even if that's not gonna bear much fruit for a couple of years because of their youth.


I have came to the conclusion that the irony of advanced basketball metrics is they often allow those with an advanced understanding of them to increase their knowledge of the game, while making the average basketball fan like myself less intelligent about the game. The reason for this is one must have a wide broad knowledge of these measures, understand how they correlate with each other, as well as the strengths and weaknesses of each metric because even the best minds in this area know there is no such thing as an all encompassing "perfect metric".

Often general fans will know the basic ones, have an elementary understanding of the metric, then formulate an entire argument/conclusion off of the metric......not even aware that there are metrics that completely or partly diminish/refute the conclusion.

I see it as three categories:

The Science Guy:The creme of the crop. Usually does not come from a direct basketball background, has advanced education in fields such as Statistics or Economics. These are the creators of the formulas that create the metrics. The basketball part is a secondary interest. They spend years and even decades studying the science, and not only understand what the metric presents, they fully understand how the metric was created. Result: Greatly expands knowledge of game. Example: Hollinger, Jeff Sagarin, John Ezekowitz, Ken Pomeroy

The BBall Numbers Guy: These are the basketball guys that recognized the value of analytics, and spend years studying the metrics, and "playing" in databases. Spreadsheet Guru's. While they do not have the advanced education and study of the actual science, they have put great effort into understanding the metrics. They often do not create metrics, but sometimes gain such a strong understanding of them, they become comfortable playing with and altering the metrics. Since they are sports/basketball first guys, they help drive the field by knowing what needs or should be measured. This does not include spending a few hours a week on a website or reading a book...but years of dedication gaining the knowledge needed to understand and educate the public consumer. Result: Greatly expands knowledge of game. Example: Pick one....Kevin Pelton or your favorite writer/analyst that bases their writing off of sound advanced metrics.

The Average Fan or even Fanatic: This is me, and the vast majority of opinion based posters on LG. We love the sport and our team. We watch almost every game and consume news about the sport daily. We know and have an elementary understanding of the most common advanced metrics. We often do not fully understand the detail behind formulation, nor are we qualified to properly educate others on the subject. Others tell us which metrics are most important. Result: Often causes this group to overthink or be too easily persuaded to a conclusion. Reduces our trust of the "eye test", which is usually what this group should rely on. Lacks the broad knowledge of the metrics to utilize them to formulate an educated conclusion on overall performance. Example: All of us fans that do not have or seek employment based on this knowledge

Long winded, but the point is analytics are beneficial to understanding the game better, but unless you are actually going to put the time and effort into understanding them, then they likely will not greatly enhance your understanding of the game. There is a reason a doctor tells another doctor that you broke your intermediate phalange on the right 4th digit, and tells you that you broke a bone in your ring finger. Its context and communicating to the audience. Its the same reason that Ingram having a few great games does not disqualify the fact based analysis that GT provided recently of his performance to that date. I still see posters making comments in the game threads after every good play by Ingram insinuating that the previous analysis insinuated Ingram would be a poor player in the future.....or as a validation that they somehow "win" the argument that GT never made.
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fiendishoc
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 11:16 am    Post subject:

It was easy to predict that once Ingram started showing some signs, people would start trying to use him to somehow bash DLO. How about we don't go down that path?
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 11:23 am    Post subject:

fiendishoc wrote:
It was easy to predict that once Ingram started showing some signs, people would start trying to use him to somehow bash DLO. How about we don't go down that path?


Yeah. The though of having both Dlo and Ingram make me happy.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 11:31 am    Post subject:

I wasn't following the destruction of this thread. I guess it was too much to ask to have one place you couldn't talk about Russell.
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