Joined: 12 Mar 2006 Posts: 3732 Location: The other side
Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:31 pm Post subject:
ShowtimeDynasty_24/7 wrote:
I cannot deny one thing... Magic absolutely brings legitimacy that this team has been missing for the past few years. He talks a big game, but I think people around the NBA will respect it.
Meh.
I have no trust in Magic whatsoever. He was great as a player and the major reason I started to follow the Lakers, but his lip service to Byron destroyed all my trust in his analytic skills. Skills that "basketball operations" need the most. _________________ .
Lakers depth chart
PG Johnson / Goodrich
SG Bryant / West / Scott
SF Baylor / Worthy / Cooper
PF Mikkelsen / Hairston / McAdoo / Gasol
C Chamberlain / Abdul-Jabbar / O'Neal / Mikan
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90306 Location: Formerly Known As 24
Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:44 pm Post subject:
Damn that was painful, watching Jeanie looking anywhere but at the camera or interviewer, talking about how hard this was after her gratuitous hit campaign that had no bearing on her ability to take over.
And I loved hearing from her that the multiple losing seasons were unacceptable, and then Magic talks about how valuable the picks they got for that losing are. _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel
Damn that was painful, watching Jeanie looking anywhere but at the camera or interviewer, talking about how hard this was after her gratuitous hit campaign that had no bearing on her ability to take over.
And I loved hearing from her that the multiple losing seasons were unacceptable, and then Magic talks about how valuable the picks they got for that losing are.
Why don't you tell us how you really feel about this? Lol. I don't think I've ever seen you go off in such a manner.
I cannot deny one thing... Magic absolutely brings legitimacy that this team has been missing for the past few years. He talks a big game, but I think people around the NBA will respect it.
Meh.
I have no trust in Magic whatsoever. He was great as a player and the major reason I started to follow the Lakers, but his lip service to Byron destroyed all my trust in his analytic skills. Skills that "basketball operations" need the most.
When I was 13 and in middle school (2007), Hollinger's PER started taking off. People started using it to compare Kobe to LeBron, where LeBron IIRC edged out Kobe. Being an ardent Kobe stan, and a 13 year old, I went to great lengths to understand what this stat was that dared claim that LeBrick was better than Kobe. Reading some of the explanation, I came to realize the stat was garbage. It didn't measure defense except by blocks and steals. I couldn't understand how a stat would reward LeChoke over Kobe for getting 6.7 rebounds versus 5.7 rebounds -- isn't 5.7 from your shooting guard more impressive than getting 6.7 from your small forward? I concluded that the stat was too arbitrary and too bad at defense to be taken seriously.
It's 10 years later, and now a whole host of new stats have been created which do the job better (even more in-house stats that we laypeople don't have access to)...
And Magic Johnson thinks that PER is modern day analytics.
Cmon, now. Yer riffing on that with Beavis and Butt-Head intensity at this point. You have a problem with them referring to each other as bro/sis from another mother? _________________ GOAT MAGIC REEL SEDALE TRIBUTE EDDIE DONX!
Joined: 19 Apr 2003 Posts: 22841 Location: La Jolla, San Diego
Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 12:27 am Post subject:
Omar Little wrote:
Damn that was painful, watching Jeanie looking anywhere but at the camera or interviewer, talking about how hard this was after her gratuitous hit campaign that had no bearing on her ability to take over.
And I loved hearing from her that the multiple losing seasons were unacceptable, and then Magic talks about how valuable the picks they got for that losing are.
And now Ding puts out an article about how patience is a virtue. It sure wasn't a virtue 24 hrs ago.
Damn that was painful, watching Jeanie looking anywhere but at the camera or interviewer, talking about how hard this was after her gratuitous hit campaign that had no bearing on her ability to take over.
And I loved hearing from her that the multiple losing seasons were unacceptable, and then Magic talks about how valuable the picks they got for that losing are.
And now Ding puts out an article about how patience is a virtue. It sure wasn't a virtue 24 hrs ago.
Good point. I've been boycotting Ding Dong for a while now.
Can't stand him on Spectrum Sportsnet as well.
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 8488 Location: The (real) short corner
Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 12:40 am Post subject:
tox wrote:
s_habe wrote:
ShowtimeDynasty_24/7 wrote:
I cannot deny one thing... Magic absolutely brings legitimacy that this team has been missing for the past few years. He talks a big game, but I think people around the NBA will respect it.
Meh.
I have no trust in Magic whatsoever. He was great as a player and the major reason I started to follow the Lakers, but his lip service to Byron destroyed all my trust in his analytic skills. Skills that "basketball operations" need the most.
When I was 13 and in middle school (2007), Hollinger's PER started taking off. People started using it to compare Kobe to LeBron, where LeBron IIRC edged out Kobe. Being an ardent Kobe stan, and a 13 year old, I went to great lengths to understand what this stat was that dared claim that LeBrick was better than Kobe. Reading some of the explanation, I came to realize the stat was garbage. It didn't measure defense except by blocks and steals. I couldn't understand how a stat would reward LeChoke over Kobe for getting 6.7 rebounds versus 5.7 rebounds -- isn't 5.7 from your shooting guard more impressive than getting 6.7 from your small forward? I concluded that the stat was too arbitrary and too bad at defense to be taken seriously.
It's 10 years later, and now a whole host of new stats have been created which do the job better (even more in-house stats that we laypeople don't have access to)...
And Magic Johnson thinks that PER is modern day analytics.
I'm fine with using PER from time to time on a message board as a convenient summary of box score production. But having an executive in the NBA bring it up in a public setting as something 'advanced' is embarrassing. My hope though is that he sees it as so far out of his lane that he'll defer completely on even hiring decisions in this department.
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90306 Location: Formerly Known As 24
Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 12:41 am Post subject:
ch3cky0selff00 wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
Damn that was painful, watching Jeanie looking anywhere but at the camera or interviewer, talking about how hard this was after her gratuitous hit campaign that had no bearing on her ability to take over.
And I loved hearing from her that the multiple losing seasons were unacceptable, and then Magic talks about how valuable the picks they got for that losing are.
Why don't you tell us how you really feel about this? Lol. I don't think I've ever seen you go off in such a manner.
I was resigned to the fact that change was coming. Like it or not, that's the way it rolls. Jeanie did everything in her power to keep them from succeeding, but mistakes were made exclusive of that, and the family has the right to reorganize.
But this was tawdry. Those hit pieces (still coming out after its over) filled with part truths, untruths, manipulations of truths and untruths and context, and the ham handed gleeful take down just re-proved to me that no matter what Jim and mitch's faults, they were way classier and professional and disciplined than Jeanie and magic by a mile. And guys like mitch and John Black, Laker lifers who have sweated blood (and worked through the death of a child) and been nothing but the most consummate of gentlemanly pros in the middle of a sibling fight they can't control, get tossed aside in the most cavalier and classless way possible, for jo good reason other than Jeanie doesn't just want to win, she wants to pillage the opponent she beat.
And don't get me started on Magic. And the timing, jumping in like this with trades on the table and such. Just horrifically like everything basketball related he's done since he retired. Glad Pelinka is coming, but he's working for a couple narcissistic people who hatcheted decent people, even if they needed to be replaced, and both of whom are attention whores.
Yeah, it sucks, because rather than an orderly, classy transition, we get a (bleep) show. And I'm supposed to hope they get classy and professional now I guess. _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel
Joined: 14 Jul 2006 Posts: 46878 Location: Coming soon and striking at your borders.
Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 12:50 am Post subject:
Omar Little wrote:
ch3cky0selff00 wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
Damn that was painful, watching Jeanie looking anywhere but at the camera or interviewer, talking about how hard this was after her gratuitous hit campaign that had no bearing on her ability to take over.
And I loved hearing from her that the multiple losing seasons were unacceptable, and then Magic talks about how valuable the picks they got for that losing are.
Why don't you tell us how you really feel about this? Lol. I don't think I've ever seen you go off in such a manner.
I was resigned to the fact that change was coming. Like it or not, that's the way it rolls. Jeanie did everything in her power to keep them from succeeding, but mistakes were made exclusive of that, and the family has the right to reorganize.
But this was tawdry. Those hit pieces (still coming out after its over) filled with part truths, untruths, manipulations of truths and untruths and context, and the ham handed gleeful take down just re-proved to me that no matter what Jim and mitch's faults, they were way classier and professional and disciplined than Jeanie and magic by a mile. And guys like mitch and John Black, Laker lifers who have sweated blood (and worked through the death of a child) and been nothing but the most consummate of gentlemanly pros in the middle of a sibling fight they can't control, get tossed aside in the most cavalier and classless way possible, for jo good reason other than Jeanie doesn't just want to win, she wants to pillage the opponent she beat.
And don't get me started on Magic. And the timing, jumping in like this with trades on the table and such. Just horrifically like everything basketball related he's done since he retired. Glad Pelinka is coming, but he's working for a couple narcissistic people who hatcheted decent people, even if they needed to be replaced, and both of whom are attention whores.
Yeah, it sucks, because rather than an orderly, classy transition, we get a (bleep) show. And I'm supposed to hope they get classy and professional now I guess.
Well, if nothing else, at least Phil isn't coming back. That has to be a positive right? _________________ *sighs*
I cannot deny one thing... Magic absolutely brings legitimacy that this team has been missing for the past few years. He talks a big game, but I think people around the NBA will respect it.
Meh.
I have no trust in Magic whatsoever. He was great as a player and the major reason I started to follow the Lakers, but his lip service to Byron destroyed all my trust in his analytic skills. Skills that "basketball operations" need the most.
When I was 13 and in middle school (2007), Hollinger's PER started taking off. People started using it to compare Kobe to LeBron, where LeBron IIRC edged out Kobe. Being an ardent Kobe stan, and a 13 year old, I went to great lengths to understand what this stat was that dared claim that LeBrick was better than Kobe. Reading some of the explanation, I came to realize the stat was garbage. It didn't measure defense except by blocks and steals. I couldn't understand how a stat would reward LeChoke over Kobe for getting 6.7 rebounds versus 5.7 rebounds -- isn't 5.7 from your shooting guard more impressive than getting 6.7 from your small forward? I concluded that the stat was too arbitrary and too bad at defense to be taken seriously.
It's 10 years later, and now a whole host of new stats have been created which do the job better (even more in-house stats that we laypeople don't have access to)...
And Magic Johnson thinks that PER is modern day analytics.
I'm fine with using PER from time to time on a message board as a convenient summary of box score production. But having an executive in the NBA bring it up in a public setting as something 'advanced' is embarrassing. My hope though is that he sees it as so far out of his lane that he'll defer completely on even hiring decisions in this department.
I mean yeah, exactly. In a casual, offhand setting it's fine. It's ubiquitous, and people have a good feel when I tell them Deng's PER is just 10. But for an exec to bring it up? It just comes off to me like someone who isn't actually interested in advanced stats. If you don't understand that they're actually good for, then how exactly do you incorporate them into your thinking? It's not enough to just have numbers guys, if you just compartmentalize them as one area of feedback (as opposed to letting the numbers challenge your assumptions and better understand what's going on).
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90306 Location: Formerly Known As 24
Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 12:52 am Post subject:
City_Dawg wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
ch3cky0selff00 wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
Damn that was painful, watching Jeanie looking anywhere but at the camera or interviewer, talking about how hard this was after her gratuitous hit campaign that had no bearing on her ability to take over.
And I loved hearing from her that the multiple losing seasons were unacceptable, and then Magic talks about how valuable the picks they got for that losing are.
Why don't you tell us how you really feel about this? Lol. I don't think I've ever seen you go off in such a manner.
I was resigned to the fact that change was coming. Like it or not, that's the way it rolls. Jeanie did everything in her power to keep them from succeeding, but mistakes were made exclusive of that, and the family has the right to reorganize.
But this was tawdry. Those hit pieces (still coming out after its over) filled with part truths, untruths, manipulations of truths and untruths and context, and the ham handed gleeful take down just re-proved to me that no matter what Jim and mitch's faults, they were way classier and professional and disciplined than Jeanie and magic by a mile. And guys like mitch and John Black, Laker lifers who have sweated blood (and worked through the death of a child) and been nothing but the most consummate of gentlemanly pros in the middle of a sibling fight they can't control, get tossed aside in the most cavalier and classless way possible, for jo good reason other than Jeanie doesn't just want to win, she wants to pillage the opponent she beat.
And don't get me started on Magic. And the timing, jumping in like this with trades on the table and such. Just horrifically like everything basketball related he's done since he retired. Glad Pelinka is coming, but he's working for a couple narcissistic people who hatcheted decent people, even if they needed to be replaced, and both of whom are attention whores.
Yeah, it sucks, because rather than an orderly, classy transition, we get a (bleep) show. And I'm supposed to hope they get classy and professional now I guess.
Well, if nothing else, at least Phil isn't coming back. That has to be a positive right?
That's kind of like being Poland and being glad that the Germans aren't in charge, but realizing that's because the soviets are... _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 8488 Location: The (real) short corner
Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 12:53 am Post subject:
Quote:
Maybe he'll learn now that he has to.
I'd rather he not even try, and just have the org hire someone who works closely with Rob. This is one area where having some knowledge is more dangerous than having no knowledge.
I'd rather he not even try, and just have the org hire someone who works closely with Rob. This is one area where having some knowledge is more dangerous than having no knowledge.
If someone high up (Rob, Luke, Ryan etc.) serves as an analytics liaison to Magic, then that's fine by me. My concern is if he hires a head of analytics to give him feedback directly. Because without a baseline understanding of what stats are, it's hard to view them as more than a black box. It's hard for a lot of people to distinguish why Okafor's horrible RPM scores are more worrisome than Ingram's. I don't want Magic to be getting statistical information while being unable to understand how that undermines or supports his thoughts (which is the way to use them).
But if that feedback is simply being incorporated at a lower level, then I agree with you.
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90306 Location: Formerly Known As 24
Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 1:50 am Post subject:
tox wrote:
fiendishoc wrote:
Quote:
Maybe he'll learn now that he has to.
I'd rather he not even try, and just have the org hire someone who works closely with Rob. This is one area where having some knowledge is more dangerous than having no knowledge.
If someone high up (Rob, Luke, Ryan etc.) serves as an analytics liaison to Magic, then that's fine by me. My concern is if he hires a head of analytics to give him feedback directly. Because without a baseline understanding of what stats are, it's hard to view them as more than a black box. It's hard for a lot of people to distinguish why Okafor's horrible RPM scores are more worrisome than Ingram's. I don't want Magic to be getting statistical information while being unable to understand how that undermines or supports his thoughts (which is the way to use them).
But if that feedback is simply being incorporated at a lower level, then I agree with you.
In my experience, the effective use of analytical data tools in policy and strategic decision making is proportional to the enthusiasm for them and the global if not specific understanding of them by senior management. If it is lip service to something Magic thinks you have to do but doesn't really truly trust, it goes nowhere, unless Ryan, Jesse, and/or Pelinka get his buy in to establish and manage and use those metrics themselves. _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel
I do agree with you guys on this.
It's extremely hypocritical of Jeannie and Magic to be boasting about the young talent on the team and in the same breath talking about how they needed to change the regime because it was not getting the job done.
I definitely was in the boat/wagon for change, but I don't like what has come out of Magic and Jeannie's mouth so far. I especially dislike their handling of Kupchak.
I know many here despise Phil Jackson, and thought he was behind all this, but it's clear as day this was never about him. This was about Jeanie vs Jim.
I would have much preferred and respected Magic if he said something to the context of "Tanking is not our way. We are not a franchise that likes to miss the playoffs or accept losing. We may have gotten some good draft picks out of it, but we strive for more than that. We want to make some major changes and add some quality talent to the team that can win ball games".
Damn that was painful, watching Jeanie looking anywhere but at the camera or interviewer, talking about how hard this was after her gratuitous hit campaign that had no bearing on her ability to take over.
And I loved hearing from her that the multiple losing seasons were unacceptable, and then Magic talks about how valuable the picks they got for that losing are.
Why don't you tell us how you really feel about this? Lol. I don't think I've ever seen you go off in such a manner.
I was resigned to the fact that change was coming. Like it or not, that's the way it rolls. Jeanie did everything in her power to keep them from succeeding, but mistakes were made exclusive of that, and the family has the right to reorganize.
But this was tawdry. Those hit pieces (still coming out after its over) filled with part truths, untruths, manipulations of truths and untruths and context, and the ham handed gleeful take down just re-proved to me that no matter what Jim and mitch's faults, they were way classier and professional and disciplined than Jeanie and magic by a mile. And guys like mitch and John Black, Laker lifers who have sweated blood (and worked through the death of a child) and been nothing but the most consummate of gentlemanly pros in the middle of a sibling fight they can't control, get tossed aside in the most cavalier and classless way possible, for jo good reason other than Jeanie doesn't just want to win, she wants to pillage the opponent she beat.
And don't get me started on Magic. And the timing, jumping in like this with trades on the table and such. Just horrifically like everything basketball related he's done since he retired. Glad Pelinka is coming, but he's working for a couple narcissistic people who hatcheted decent people, even if they needed to be replaced, and both of whom are attention whores.
Yeah, it sucks, because rather than an orderly, classy transition, we get a (bleep) show. And I'm supposed to hope they get classy and professional now I guess.
Yeah, as I said before the coup, it was painful watching Jim and Mitch suffer through a slow death. You could just see the axe coming down. I think Jeannie's "there's no time like right now" comment was to cover for the fact that Magic was out of control on his press tour as an "advisor". She had to nip it in the bud because she couldn't get a handle on Magic. It looks to me like Magic pressured her into making the decision sooner than she planned to, which is a bit scary. At least she put them out of their misery.
I suggested a week ago that there was a way to make this transition a smooth one where Jim and Mitch could save face rather than getting publicly humiliated like they were. You want them out? Fine, but let them go with dignity. They earned that much.
I cannot deny one thing... Magic absolutely brings legitimacy that this team has been missing for the past few years. He talks a big game, but I think people around the NBA will respect it.
Meh.
I have no trust in Magic whatsoever. He was great as a player and the major reason I started to follow the Lakers, but his lip service to Byron destroyed all my trust in his analytic skills. Skills that "basketball operations" need the most.
When I was 13 and in middle school (2007), Hollinger's PER started taking off. People started using it to compare Kobe to LeBron, where LeBron IIRC edged out Kobe. Being an ardent Kobe stan, and a 13 year old, I went to great lengths to understand what this stat was that dared claim that LeBrick was better than Kobe. Reading some of the explanation, I came to realize the stat was garbage. It didn't measure defense except by blocks and steals. I couldn't understand how a stat would reward LeChoke over Kobe for getting 6.7 rebounds versus 5.7 rebounds -- isn't 5.7 from your shooting guard more impressive than getting 6.7 from your small forward? I concluded that the stat was too arbitrary and too bad at defense to be taken seriously.
It's 10 years later, and now a whole host of new stats have been created which do the job better (even more in-house stats that we laypeople don't have access to)...
And Magic Johnson thinks that PER is modern day analytics.
I'm fine with using PER from time to time on a message board as a convenient summary of box score production. But having an executive in the NBA bring it up in a public setting as something 'advanced' is embarrassing. My hope though is that he sees it as so far out of his lane that he'll defer completely on even hiring decisions in this department.
I mean yeah, exactly. In a casual, offhand setting it's fine. It's ubiquitous, and people have a good feel when I tell them Deng's PER is just 10. But for an exec to bring it up? It just comes off to me like someone who isn't actually interested in advanced stats. If you don't understand that they're actually good for, then how exactly do you incorporate them into your thinking? It's not enough to just have numbers guys, if you just compartmentalize them as one area of feedback (as opposed to letting the numbers challenge your assumptions and better understand what's going on).
Maybe he'll learn now that he has to.
The funny thing is after he pointed to PER on Mason & Ireland, he couldn't seem to recall what it even stood for. How are you going to use any stats if you don't know what they mean?
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