OFFICIAL D'ANGELO RUSSELL (2yr, $37M, pg. 2749)
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Outspoken
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:56 pm    Post subject:

KBH wrote:
Outspoken wrote:
LakersPimp wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
Touches last night

D'Angelo Russell.....89
Jordan Clarkson......63

Passes last night

D'Angelo Russell.....59
Jordan Clarkson......41


He was running the exact same actions last night that he normally does, led both teams in touches, and led both teams in passes. But if calling him a SG is what you need to scratch the "I was right!" itch that's standing in the way of you recognizing that we have a talented kid who's worth keeping around, do what you gotta do.
22 shots....thats the difference...he averages 13.6


yup! stats and analytics don't tell the whole story, that's why I try not to always resort to them. I try to go by what I see in the game and DLO seemed a lot more comfortable being the shooting guard as they labeled him than the point, where he is put in a box. his approach. his mentality. his comfortability. his confidence was different from what I seen vs the cavs, which made him play better for that game. we all see things differently though - i'm looking forward to next game because like I said, 1 game is too small of a sample size to really assess.


lol He (incorrectly) used stats (shot attempts) to make a point and you're saying that stats and analytics don't tell the whole story. The difference in his shot attempts were up because he played 14 more minutes (about 50%) more than his season average. Anything else you're "seeing" regarding his comfort is you projecting.


He didn't incorrectly use anything. He put the numbers in the context to carry his point a view. I use analytics and stats as well, I don't all the time because they don't tell the whole story and I can skew them as I see fits to my point. I mean was Derek Fisher not our point guard? Is Kyrie Irving not the point guard for the Cavs. DLO was playmaking as a shooting guard. There's things you can't record on stats... like ones mental approach to the game. He came in looking to score, while getting his team involved. He was much more aggressive this game, the whole game - where as DLO told us the reason why when talking about the difference between shooting guard and point guard. He seemed more comfortable and confident as a shooting guard than a point guard.


Last edited by Outspoken on Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:02 pm; edited 2 times in total
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:58 pm    Post subject:

So much "arms folded and crossed" analysis going on here. Good lord.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:59 pm    Post subject:

LakersPimp wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
LakersPimp wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
The Logo wrote:
He was handling the ball just much as he normally does at the "PG". The point of starting two interchangable ball handlers together is so you get the benefits of shot creation at both positions. Lillard and McCollum are the prototype of this. If you pair up Russell and Clarkson or for hypothetical sake Ball/Fultz you get ball handlers and shot makers at both positions. I can honestly care less what position you label D'Angelo as. So long as he's still making decisions with the ball


Yup. People should actually be happy that DLO has the size to play both spots, and the skill levels to play both spots.

There are players who cannot play the other guard position either due to size or skill issues; DLO doesn't suffer from either.
on offense....lol


Again, give me the numbers that back that up. Synergy had DLO as a 56th percentile defender, which is way above his peers age-wise. He may not be great, but the claim that he is horrendous (like Devin Booker horrendous) is just not backed up by the numbers.

I think he's prone to being back cut (so is a good projected defender like Ingram) and off screens (almost everyone is). Lock down perimeter defenders are the outliers, not the norm. Even Lillard/Irving may be a worse defender than a 21 year old DLO right now.


I love the Lakers...and I love these stats...but the defensive stats won't matter as much until the Lakers are competitive. Teams go half speed for 2-3 quarters against the Lakers because we are beating ourselves with turnovers and sloppy play.

His defense is a concern to me, so we shall see.


This sounds an awful lot like, "the measurements aren't confirming my preconceived notion, so there's something wrong with the measurements, not my notion"
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:00 pm    Post subject:

Fastbreak32 wrote:
Yes, some people don't like stats and analytics, as it doesn't tell the WHOLE story. But it definitely says something, as long as you recognize how to consume the data.

So then people want the "eye test." But isn't that what people like Fiendish and GT provide? That's qualitative data with specific commentary on specific actions being observed. It gives a How/Why to the numbers.

Several steps below that is when people see an action/behavior and mind-read the intention behind the action. Telepathy. Clairvoyance.

Then we just get buzz words: Blow by speed, fire, etc.


There's plenty of stuff that I'm wrong about, and reasonable minds can always disagree, but I can't begin to tell you how hard I roll my eyes every time I see someone who has never demonstrated a technical understanding of how the sport actually works lecturing someone else about the "eye test".
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:01 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
So much "arms folded and crossed" analysis going on here. Good lord.



just man up !!
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:01 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
Fastbreak32 wrote:
Yes, some people don't like stats and analytics, as it doesn't tell the WHOLE story. But it definitely says something, as long as you recognize how to consume the data.

So then people want the "eye test." But isn't that what people like Fiendish and GT provide? That's qualitative data with specific commentary on specific actions being observed. It gives a How/Why to the numbers.

Several steps below that is when people see an action/behavior and mind-read the intention behind the action. Telepathy. Clairvoyance.

Then we just get buzz words: Blow by speed, fire, etc.


There's plenty of stuff that I'm wrong about, and reasonable minds can always disagree, but I can't begin to tell you how hard I roll my eyes every time I see someone who has never demonstrated a technical understanding of how the sport actually works lecturing someone else about the "eye test".


I'm assuming that you use your eyes when watching hundreds of hours of Lakers film in your room. Ergo, you are also using your "eye test."
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:01 pm    Post subject:

Outspoken wrote:
He didn't incorrectly use anything. He put the numbers in the context to carry his point a view. I use analytics and stats as well, I don't all the time because they don't tell the whole story and I can skew them as I see fits to my point. I mean was Derek Fisher not our point guard? Is Kyrie Irving not the point guard for the Cavs. DLO was playmaking as a shooting guard. Statistics show, last time I checked DLO's better off the ball. That's half the truth in my opinion. There's things you can't record on stats like ones mental approach to the game. He came in looking to score, while getting his team involved. He was much more aggressive this game, the whole game - where as DLO told us the reason why when talking about the difference between shooting guard and point guard. He seemed more comfortable and confident as a shooting guard than a point guard.


Can you be playing PG and playing off of the ball?
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lamscott
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:01 pm    Post subject:

His shots finally started going in.

Hopefully its not a snowflake.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:03 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
Fastbreak32 wrote:
Yes, some people don't like stats and analytics, as it doesn't tell the WHOLE story. But it definitely says something, as long as you recognize how to consume the data.

So then people want the "eye test." But isn't that what people like Fiendish and GT provide? That's qualitative data with specific commentary on specific actions being observed. It gives a How/Why to the numbers.

Several steps below that is when people see an action/behavior and mind-read the intention behind the action. Telepathy. Clairvoyance.

Then we just get buzz words: Blow by speed, fire, etc.


There's plenty of stuff that I'm wrong about, and reasonable minds can always disagree, but I can't begin to tell you how hard I roll my eyes every time I see someone who has never demonstrated a technical understanding of how the sport actually works lecturing someone else about the "eye test".


Yeah, that bugs me. Whether we're talking basketball or any other field (sports, social, academic), you have to be able to define what you're observing. If you can't really define what you're observing, well then the findings are gonna suck. But that's technical research speak.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:07 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
Outspoken wrote:
He didn't incorrectly use anything. He put the numbers in the context to carry his point a view. I use analytics and stats as well, I don't all the time because they don't tell the whole story and I can skew them as I see fits to my point. I mean was Derek Fisher not our point guard? Is Kyrie Irving not the point guard for the Cavs. DLO was playmaking as a shooting guard. Statistics show, last time I checked DLO's better off the ball. That's half the truth in my opinion. There's things you can't record on stats like ones mental approach to the game. He came in looking to score, while getting his team involved. He was much more aggressive this game, the whole game - where as DLO told us the reason why when talking about the difference between shooting guard and point guard. He seemed more comfortable and confident as a shooting guard than a point guard.


Can you be playing PG and playing off of the ball?


Does off ball mean you're never on ball?
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:09 pm    Post subject:

Outspoken wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
Outspoken wrote:
He didn't incorrectly use anything. He put the numbers in the context to carry his point a view. I use analytics and stats as well, I don't all the time because they don't tell the whole story and I can skew them as I see fits to my point. I mean was Derek Fisher not our point guard? Is Kyrie Irving not the point guard for the Cavs. DLO was playmaking as a shooting guard. Statistics show, last time I checked DLO's better off the ball. That's half the truth in my opinion. There's things you can't record on stats like ones mental approach to the game. He came in looking to score, while getting his team involved. He was much more aggressive this game, the whole game - where as DLO told us the reason why when talking about the difference between shooting guard and point guard. He seemed more comfortable and confident as a shooting guard than a point guard.


Can you be playing PG and playing off of the ball?


Does off ball mean you're never on ball?

I think deep down, both sides of this argument actually agree on what they think Russell would look best doing... It's just the need to label it that's causing the kerfuffle...
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:10 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
Fastbreak32 wrote:
Yes, some people don't like stats and analytics, as it doesn't tell the WHOLE story. But it definitely says something, as long as you recognize how to consume the data.

So then people want the "eye test." But isn't that what people like Fiendish and GT provide? That's qualitative data with specific commentary on specific actions being observed. It gives a How/Why to the numbers.

Several steps below that is when people see an action/behavior and mind-read the intention behind the action. Telepathy. Clairvoyance.

Then we just get buzz words: Blow by speed, fire, etc.


There's plenty of stuff that I'm wrong about, and reasonable minds can always disagree, but I can't begin to tell you how hard I roll my eyes every time I see someone who has never demonstrated a technical understanding of how the sport actually works lecturing someone else about the "eye test".


the eye test, in this regard, is literally just - how many highlight reel plays did the player make over the course of the last game.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:11 pm    Post subject:

for those saying Luke has questioned DLO's work ethic

https://twitter.com/MarkG_Medina/status/843931899953209344
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:11 pm    Post subject:

One thing I'd love to see D'Angelo add to his passing game is consistent use of the lob. Tarik, Nance, Ingram, Brewer, JC, and even Nwaba are all capable of finishing an alley oop. It's especially devastating if he can run PnR, put his man in jail, and force the defender to come out and contest.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:14 pm    Post subject:

Outspoken wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
Outspoken wrote:
He didn't incorrectly use anything. He put the numbers in the context to carry his point a view. I use analytics and stats as well, I don't all the time because they don't tell the whole story and I can skew them as I see fits to my point. I mean was Derek Fisher not our point guard? Is Kyrie Irving not the point guard for the Cavs. DLO was playmaking as a shooting guard. Statistics show, last time I checked DLO's better off the ball. That's half the truth in my opinion. There's things you can't record on stats like ones mental approach to the game. He came in looking to score, while getting his team involved. He was much more aggressive this game, the whole game - where as DLO told us the reason why when talking about the difference between shooting guard and point guard. He seemed more comfortable and confident as a shooting guard than a point guard.


Can you be playing PG and playing off of the ball?


Does off ball mean you're never on ball?


Exactly. It's a largely semantical argument. Russell was getting shots off of the same type of actions last night that he's been getting all year. The difference is that the guy on the other side of the court also had ball skills, rather than just being a spot up shooter like Nick Young.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:14 pm    Post subject:

Outspoken wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
Outspoken wrote:
He didn't incorrectly use anything. He put the numbers in the context to carry his point a view. I use analytics and stats as well, I don't all the time because they don't tell the whole story and I can skew them as I see fits to my point. I mean was Derek Fisher not our point guard? Is Kyrie Irving not the point guard for the Cavs. DLO was playmaking as a shooting guard. Statistics show, last time I checked DLO's better off the ball. That's half the truth in my opinion. There's things you can't record on stats like ones mental approach to the game. He came in looking to score, while getting his team involved. He was much more aggressive this game, the whole game - where as DLO told us the reason why when talking about the difference between shooting guard and point guard. He seemed more comfortable and confident as a shooting guard than a point guard.


Can you be playing PG and playing off of the ball?


Does off ball mean you're never on ball?
C'mon mang.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:15 pm    Post subject:

pmacla wrote:
for those saying Luke has questioned DLO's work ethic

https://twitter.com/MarkG_Medina/status/843931899953209344


any time it's medina, even if it's him providing a literal word for word quote, i expect there to be some agenda behind it. dude is a rabblerouser
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:16 pm    Post subject:

pmacla wrote:
for those saying Luke has questioned DLO's work ethic

https://twitter.com/MarkG_Medina/status/843931899953209344


Love this quote, gonna embed the picture. Learning how to work effectively is even more important than working hard.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:26 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
pmacla wrote:
for those saying Luke has questioned DLO's work ethic

https://twitter.com/MarkG_Medina/status/843931899953209344


Love this quote, gonna embed the picture. Learning how to work effectively is even more important than working hard.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C7Y_lPDU0AAJDdt.jpg


I think frustrations with D'Angelo have probably come from more of his lack of sticking to certain routines than just sheer hours of work being put in. I remember in the exit interviews last year he said that he never really was a guy who worked by routines or strict repetition.

While that is definitely something that falls on him, my question is whether the Lakers as an organization have been solid enough in helping instill this type of stuff in guys like D'Angelo given their lack of experience/willingness in traditional development. I hope there is enough self-reflection within management with this new regime. They need to look at their own institutional strength and not just put it all on the players.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:30 pm    Post subject:

Mdstgreen wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
pmacla wrote:
for those saying Luke has questioned DLO's work ethic

https://twitter.com/MarkG_Medina/status/843931899953209344


Love this quote, gonna embed the picture. Learning how to work effectively is even more important than working hard.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C7Y_lPDU0AAJDdt.jpg


I think frustrations with D'Angelo have probably come from more of his lack of sticking to certain routines than just sheer hours of work being put in. I remember in the exit interviews last year he said that he never really was a guy who worked by routines or strict repetition.

While that is definitely something that falls on him, my question is whether the Lakers as an organization have been solid enough in helping instill this type of stuff in guys like D'Angelo given their lack of experience/willingness in traditional development. I hope there is enough self-reflection within management with this new regime. They need to look at their own institutional strength and not just put it all on the players.


Very well stated. I hope that both D'Angelo and the organization are able to look in the mirror to see what they can do to improve.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:32 pm    Post subject:

Fastbreak32 wrote:
Yes, some people don't like stats and analytics, as it doesn't tell the WHOLE story. But it definitely says something, as long as you recognize how to consume the data.

So then people want the "eye test." But isn't that what people like Fiendish and GT provide? That's qualitative data with specific commentary on specific actions being observed. It gives a How/Why to the numbers.

Several steps below that is when people see an action/behavior and mind-read the intention behind the action. Telepathy. Clairvoyance.

Then we just get buzz words: Blow by speed, fire, etc.

What people want is for their opinions to be reaffirmed. Whether it's by stats or other people's eye tests is irrelevant.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:32 pm    Post subject:

Mdstgreen wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
pmacla wrote:
for those saying Luke has questioned DLO's work ethic

https://twitter.com/MarkG_Medina/status/843931899953209344


Love this quote, gonna embed the picture. Learning how to work effectively is even more important than working hard.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C7Y_lPDU0AAJDdt.jpg


I think frustrations with D'Angelo have probably come from more of his lack of sticking to certain routines than just sheer hours of work being put in. I remember in the exit interviews last year he said that he never really was a guy who worked by routines or strict repetition.

While that is definitely something that falls on him, my question is whether the Lakers as an organization have been solid enough in helping instill this type of stuff in guys like D'Angelo given their lack of experience/willingness in traditional development. I hope there is enough self-reflection within management with this new regime. They need to look at their own institutional strength and not just put it all on the players.


I hope Luke assigns books to players like PJax used to. "The Power of Habit" should be read by all our young players. There's an entire section dedicated to Tony Dungy and his stints with the Bucs/Colts, so they'll be able to apply it directly as athletes.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:34 pm    Post subject:

Mdstgreen wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Mdstgreen wrote:
lakersfan22 wrote:
3'Angelo wrote:
On Sportsnation, Byron was just asked if D'Angelo is part of the Lakers' future plans and replied with a flat "no"

Why do they even ask him about D'angelo anymore?

EDIT: He was asked if D'Angelo is the future of the Lakers. I understand why he would say no if that is how the question was phrased.
lol what if he knows something that we don't. Like Magic is for sure going to trade him or something


Byron is best buddies with Magic, works out with him every morning. Of course he knows what Magic is thinking. I'd like to hear exactly what Byron said.

I'm scared (bleep) less that they are gonna do something stupid with D'Angelo in the offseason.


Seriously, especially if Magic is getting advice from one of the pettiest and worst Lakers coaches ever in Byron.


I just hope there isn't something petty carrying over to Magic and the Showtime cartel. If they are undervaluing this guy, there's gonna be lots of teams lining up to take advantage of their shortsightedness.


I don't think there is anything to worry about. I believe that the question was "Is D'Angelo the future of the Lakers" as in is he the superstar to carry them forward and Byron replied to that with a flat "no". I did not watch this segment myself, I just had a friend tell me this over text so this may be not be so accurate.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:36 pm    Post subject:

3'Angelo wrote:

I don't think there is anything to worry about. I believe that the question was "Is D'Angelo the future of the Lakers" as in is he the superstar to carry them forward and Byron replied to that with a flat "no". I did not watch this segment myself, I just had a friend tell me this over text so this may be not be so accurate.


If that's the question, then I'd say no as well. And I'm pretty high on Russell. Nothing to see here.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:38 pm    Post subject:

tox wrote:
3'Angelo wrote:

I don't think there is anything to worry about. I believe that the question was "Is D'Angelo the future of the Lakers" as in is he the superstar to carry them forward and Byron replied to that with a flat "no". I did not watch this segment myself, I just had a friend tell me this over text so this may be not be so accurate.


If that's the question, then I'd say no as well. And I'm pretty high on Russell. Nothing to see here.


Yeah, not really a controversial position to take. But it is emblematic of the all or nothing attitude that exists within the fan base at large.
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