OFFICIAL TIMOFEY MOZGOV THREAD
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 66, 67, 68 ... 71, 72, 73  Next
 
Post new topic    LakersGround.net Forum Index -> General Basketball Discussion Reply to topic
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
CRoost
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 21 Mar 2017
Posts: 4790

PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:42 am    Post subject:

tox wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
dcarter4kobe wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
dcarter4kobe wrote:
tox wrote:
Mozgov is still the best center on the roster right now.


It was Black before he went into this funk.


Black can't consistently check starting fives.

This is true. Which partially led to Black outplaying Moz when Moz was the starting C & Black was on the 2nd unit


Led when? Not in November.

I actually see dcarter's point, but I understand it's a fuzzy distinction. Moz is the more effective starting center. Tarik can be very ineffective against traditional bigs -- we've seen that as Moz got shut down. On the other hand, Black can be extremely effective as a bench center in a way that I haven't seen Moz be.

So I actually can agree with both of you there.


Black was more effective as backup and he should be the backup. But I think Moz will get the role because no team will take his contract making Black the expendable one.

Moz is a good pick up. The problem is his contract. We did not have a starting Center to start the season. Moz fits well with pick and roll with DLo. We did not really envision that Zubac will be this good early on.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Inspector Gadget
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 18 Apr 2016
Posts: 46492

PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:50 am    Post subject:

CRoost wrote:
tox wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
dcarter4kobe wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
dcarter4kobe wrote:
tox wrote:
Mozgov is still the best center on the roster right now.


It was Black before he went into this funk.


Black can't consistently check starting fives.

This is true. Which partially led to Black outplaying Moz when Moz was the starting C & Black was on the 2nd unit


Led when? Not in November.

I actually see dcarter's point, but I understand it's a fuzzy distinction. Moz is the more effective starting center. Tarik can be very ineffective against traditional bigs -- we've seen that as Moz got shut down. On the other hand, Black can be extremely effective as a bench center in a way that I haven't seen Moz be.

So I actually can agree with both of you there.


Black was more effective as backup and he should be the backup. But I think Moz will get the role because no team will take his contract making Black the expendable one.

Moz is a good pick up. The problem is his contract. We did not have a starting Center to start the season. Moz fits well with pick and roll with DLo. We did not really envision that Zubac will be this good early on.


I won't be surprised if we dangled Tarik Black and the 27th pick on draft night to get use a scorer who can play D.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
CRoost
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 21 Mar 2017
Posts: 4790

PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:54 am    Post subject:

Inspector Gadget wrote:
CRoost wrote:
tox wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
dcarter4kobe wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
dcarter4kobe wrote:
tox wrote:
Mozgov is still the best center on the roster right now.


It was Black before he went into this funk.


Black can't consistently check starting fives.

This is true. Which partially led to Black outplaying Moz when Moz was the starting C & Black was on the 2nd unit


Led when? Not in November.

I actually see dcarter's point, but I understand it's a fuzzy distinction. Moz is the more effective starting center. Tarik can be very ineffective against traditional bigs -- we've seen that as Moz got shut down. On the other hand, Black can be extremely effective as a bench center in a way that I haven't seen Moz be.

So I actually can agree with both of you there.


Black was more effective as backup and he should be the backup. But I think Moz will get the role because no team will take his contract making Black the expendable one.

Moz is a good pick up. The problem is his contract. We did not have a starting Center to start the season. Moz fits well with pick and roll with DLo. We did not really envision that Zubac will be this good early on.


I won't be surprised if we dangled Tarik Black and the 27th pick on draft night to get use a scorer who can play D.


We need a defender but scorer, we have enough of that. We need a 3 & D player. Someone who does not need the ball to be effective.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
tox
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 16 Nov 2015
Posts: 17835

PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:17 am    Post subject:

CRoost wrote:
tox wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
dcarter4kobe wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
dcarter4kobe wrote:
tox wrote:
Mozgov is still the best center on the roster right now.


It was Black before he went into this funk.


Black can't consistently check starting fives.

This is true. Which partially led to Black outplaying Moz when Moz was the starting C & Black was on the 2nd unit


Led when? Not in November.

I actually see dcarter's point, but I understand it's a fuzzy distinction. Moz is the more effective starting center. Tarik can be very ineffective against traditional bigs -- we've seen that as Moz got shut down. On the other hand, Black can be extremely effective as a bench center in a way that I haven't seen Moz be.

So I actually can agree with both of you there.


Black was more effective as backup and he should be the backup. But I think Moz will get the role because no team will take his contract making Black the expendable one.

Moz is a good pick up. The problem is his contract. We did not have a starting Center to start the season. Moz fits well with pick and roll with DLo. We did not really envision that Zubac will be this good early on.


Optimally (for wins), Mozgov would start and Tarik would be the primary backup. Zubac's defense and rebounding are so far back from being contender-worthy it's not even funny. Which is fine -- he's 19!

I suspect we'll use Tarik as filler in some trade though, let Zubac be the primary bench big, and run Randle or Nance at the 5 if we want to go small. Even if I don't really like that idea.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
CRoost
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 21 Mar 2017
Posts: 4790

PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:30 am    Post subject:

tox wrote:
CRoost wrote:
tox wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
dcarter4kobe wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
dcarter4kobe wrote:
tox wrote:
Mozgov is still the best center on the roster right now.


It was Black before he went into this funk.


Black can't consistently check starting fives.

This is true. Which partially led to Black outplaying Moz when Moz was the starting C & Black was on the 2nd unit


Led when? Not in November.

I actually see dcarter's point, but I understand it's a fuzzy distinction. Moz is the more effective starting center. Tarik can be very ineffective against traditional bigs -- we've seen that as Moz got shut down. On the other hand, Black can be extremely effective as a bench center in a way that I haven't seen Moz be.

So I actually can agree with both of you there.


Black was more effective as backup and he should be the backup. But I think Moz will get the role because no team will take his contract making Black the expendable one.

Moz is a good pick up. The problem is his contract. We did not have a starting Center to start the season. Moz fits well with pick and roll with DLo. We did not really envision that Zubac will be this good early on.


Optimally (for wins), Mozgov would start and Tarik would be the primary backup. Zubac's defense and rebounding are so far back from being contender-worthy it's not even funny. Which is fine -- he's 19!

I suspect we'll use Tarik as filler in some trade though, let Zubac be the primary bench big, and run Randle or Nance at the 5 if we want to go small. Even if I don't really like that idea.


Why would you want Zubac on the bench though. We are in a rebuilding mode, we need him to develop and grow his confidence.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
tox
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 16 Nov 2015
Posts: 17835

PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:55 am    Post subject:

CRoost wrote:

Why would you want Zubac on the bench though. We are in a rebuilding mode, we need him to develop and grow his confidence.
I'm not saying to give him DNP-CDs.

But if the goal is to make the playoffs in 2018, you probably don't want Zubac playing a ton of minutes. He's a really bad defender. The team has a DRTG of 116.4 with him on the court. The same lineup (Williams/ Clarkson/ Ingram/ Nance) that posts a DRTG of 104.8 with Tarik posts a DRTG of 116.2 with Zubac.

Depends on the matchup ultimately -- offensively he gives us an angle that Tarik and Mozgov don't get close to. I don't mean to undervalue that. But he's still significantly worse of a player than Moz and Tarik in my estimation, and the numbers back that up. Will he be up to speed in 2017-2018? I doubt it. Not if you want to win, and this team will want to win.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Omar Little
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 90299
Location: Formerly Known As 24

PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 2:22 pm    Post subject:

tox wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
dcarter4kobe wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
dcarter4kobe wrote:
tox wrote:
Mozgov is still the best center on the roster right now.


It was Black before he went into this funk.


Black can't consistently check starting fives.

This is true. Which partially led to Black outplaying Moz when Moz was the starting C & Black was on the 2nd unit


Led when? Not in November.

I actually see dcarter's point, but I understand it's a fuzzy distinction. Moz is the more effective starting center. Tarik can be very ineffective against traditional bigs -- we've seen that as Moz got shut down. On the other hand, Black can be extremely effective as a bench center in a way that I haven't seen Moz be.

So I actually can agree with both of you there.


I agree with your take, just not the "Black outperforming Moz" part of his, because there wasn't really a point when both were playing with their units where Black was the superior guy.

But you're getting to my point and that is that Mozgov and Black are actually a perfectly legit center combo, and could play that for a playoff team. Neither guy is going to lead the team to the playoffs, but then again, neither have most of the high profile 5's.

I think the problem here is that most people either don't understand that Mozgov is actually a serviceable center, or are so put off by the contract (which, ironically, isn't that outside of the norm) that they see him as awful, and those two things feed each other.

You could build a legit playoff team that had Mozgov and Deng playing significant minutes at 5 and 4 together.
_________________
“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
CRoost
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 21 Mar 2017
Posts: 4790

PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 2:26 pm    Post subject:

tox wrote:
CRoost wrote:

Why would you want Zubac on the bench though. We are in a rebuilding mode, we need him to develop and grow his confidence.
I'm not saying to give him DNP-CDs.

But if the goal is to make the playoffs in 2018, you probably don't want Zubac playing a ton of minutes. He's a really bad defender. The team has a DRTG of 116.4 with him on the court. The same lineup (Williams/ Clarkson/ Ingram/ Nance) that posts a DRTG of 104.8 with Tarik posts a DRTG of 116.2 with Zubac.

Depends on the matchup ultimately -- offensively he gives us an angle that Tarik and Mozgov don't get close to. I don't mean to undervalue that. But he's still significantly worse of a player than Moz and Tarik in my estimation, and the numbers back that up. Will he be up to speed in 2017-2018? I doubt it. Not if you want to win, and this team will want to win.


Even if we keep our pick, we won't be making the playoff in 2018. I don't think Zubac is a bad defender, I think he is just inexperience. He obviously need to get stronger but he won't get better if he's not playing a lot. Nothing we gain from playing Moz and Black. They are very limited. They are capable backup but the development should be focus on Zubac.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
tox
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 16 Nov 2015
Posts: 17835

PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 2:39 pm    Post subject:

CRoost wrote:
tox wrote:
CRoost wrote:

Why would you want Zubac on the bench though. We are in a rebuilding mode, we need him to develop and grow his confidence.
I'm not saying to give him DNP-CDs.

But if the goal is to make the playoffs in 2018, you probably don't want Zubac playing a ton of minutes. He's a really bad defender. The team has a DRTG of 116.4 with him on the court. The same lineup (Williams/ Clarkson/ Ingram/ Nance) that posts a DRTG of 104.8 with Tarik posts a DRTG of 116.2 with Zubac.

Depends on the matchup ultimately -- offensively he gives us an angle that Tarik and Mozgov don't get close to. I don't mean to undervalue that. But he's still significantly worse of a player than Moz and Tarik in my estimation, and the numbers back that up. Will he be up to speed in 2017-2018? I doubt it. Not if you want to win, and this team will want to win.


Even if we keep our pick, we won't be making the playoff in 2018. I don't think Zubac is a bad defender, I think he is just inexperience. He obviously need to get stronger but he won't get better if he's not playing a lot. Nothing we gain from playing Moz and Black. They are very limited. They are capable backup but the development should be focus on Zubac.


Zubac is a terrible defender. It's reflected in the on/off data. I'm not a huge RPM fan, but:
Black: +1.6 DRPM
Mozgov: +0.7 DRPM
Zubac: -0.6 DRPM (#63 out of 69 centers).

And the lineup data reflects the same thing. Whether or not it's due to inexperience, physical limitations, roster construction (i.e. bad defensive chemistry with teammates), or some combination of all three, the fact is the team is always horrible on defense with him. At least with Mozgov and Tarik, there are lineups where they are quite competent defensively. They aren't Rudy Gobert, but you can fit them in roles and have them be successful.

Zubac does not have such a lineup. Again, I'm leaving out any commentary of his personal shortcomings and simply pointing out the Lakers are horrible on defense with him on the court. If you want to win, that can't be the case with your starting center.

Now, if you think the Lakers aren't gonna compete anyways and they should focus on development, then I agree with you that getting him reps in 2018 is the best route to choose. But I don't think the Lakers actually are going to let 2018 be another development year so it's moot. Zubac can still get minutes and learn to play defense, but it'll be a gradual process if we want to contend in the meantime.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
CRoost
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 21 Mar 2017
Posts: 4790

PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 2:58 pm    Post subject:

tox wrote:
CRoost wrote:
tox wrote:
CRoost wrote:

Why would you want Zubac on the bench though. We are in a rebuilding mode, we need him to develop and grow his confidence.
I'm not saying to give him DNP-CDs.

But if the goal is to make the playoffs in 2018, you probably don't want Zubac playing a ton of minutes. He's a really bad defender. The team has a DRTG of 116.4 with him on the court. The same lineup (Williams/ Clarkson/ Ingram/ Nance) that posts a DRTG of 104.8 with Tarik posts a DRTG of 116.2 with Zubac.

Depends on the matchup ultimately -- offensively he gives us an angle that Tarik and Mozgov don't get close to. I don't mean to undervalue that. But he's still significantly worse of a player than Moz and Tarik in my estimation, and the numbers back that up. Will he be up to speed in 2017-2018? I doubt it. Not if you want to win, and this team will want to win.


Even if we keep our pick, we won't be making the playoff in 2018. I don't think Zubac is a bad defender, I think he is just inexperience. He obviously need to get stronger but he won't get better if he's not playing a lot. Nothing we gain from playing Moz and Black. They are very limited. They are capable backup but the development should be focus on Zubac.


Zubac is a terrible defender. It's reflected in the on/off data. I'm not a huge RPM fan, but:
Black: +1.6 DRPM
Mozgov: +0.7 DRPM
Zubac: -0.6 DRPM (#63 out of 69 centers).

And the lineup data reflects the same thing. Whether or not it's due to inexperience, physical limitations, roster construction (i.e. bad defensive chemistry with teammates), or some combination of all three, the fact is the team is always horrible on defense with him. At least with Mozgov and Tarik, there are lineups where they are quite competent defensively. They aren't Rudy Gobert, but you can fit them in roles and have them be successful.

Zubac does not have such a lineup. Again, I'm leaving out any commentary of his personal shortcomings and simply pointing out the Lakers are horrible on defense with him on the court. If you want to win, that can't be the case with your starting center.

Now, if you think the Lakers aren't gonna compete anyways and they should focus on development, then I agree with you that getting him reps in 2018 is the best route to choose. But I don't think the Lakers actually are going to let 2018 be another development year so it's moot. Zubac can still get minutes and learn to play defense, but it'll be a gradual process if we want to contend in the meantime.


If the Lakers can get a game changer next year or one of our young guys take over than maybe we should play whoever can play the best in that position. But those stats aren't exactly fair to Zubac because most of those probably came when we decided to take the tank mode direction. Zubac shown a lot of promise and he's only 19. Why would you want limited guys like Moz and Tariq to slow him down because of some meaningless stats from a tanking team. Ingram probably have one of the worst DPRM. Do you want Deng to play over him next year because you think we will be a playoff team?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
tox
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 16 Nov 2015
Posts: 17835

PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 3:10 pm    Post subject:

CRoost wrote:

If the Lakers can get a game changer next year or one of our young guys take over than maybe we should play whoever can play the best in that position. But those stats aren't exactly fair to Zubac because most of those probably came when we decided to take the tank mode direction. Zubac shown a lot of promise and he's only 19. Why would you want limited guys like Moz and Tariq to slow him down because of some meaningless stats from a tanking team. Ingram probably have one of the worst DPRM. Do you want Deng to play over him next year because you think we will be a playoff team?

Sure, part of his poor RPM is circumstance. But the lineups he played in before, say, the ASB were also horrible defensively. And these lineups were fantastic with Tarik. This is the problem with tanking btw -- it's impossible to know if Zubac could replace Mozgov in lineups where the defense was good (like the starters: Russell + Young + Deng + Randle) and see if Zubac is a playable center in those lineups. It's clear he was horrible as a Tarik replacement, but it's unclear if he is a competent Mozgov replacement. In way too limited minutes, the stats suggest he might be fine. But what we do know for a fact is Zubac has been awful in just about every lineup configuration that he has played in, though.

And no, because I understand how DRPM works, I'm not just going to toss it out. Unlike you, I don't start from an opinion and evaluate stats based on if they agree with my opinion. Ingram has a horrible RPM because he was horrible for most of the season. Yes, there's still a pretty strong argument if winning is our first concern, then we should start Deng instead of Ingram next season. But at least there's also an argument based on his growth this season that by next season, he'll be good enough to earn that role and we can toss the stats out the window. Zubac is starting a much more significant deficit than Ingram -- so unless he shows a significant improvement in defensive awareness, he'll be far more detrimental than Ingram.

BTW: I suspect Ingram his 2nd year will be a near average league starter, like Russell in his 2nd year. That's why I don't mind him starting. Zubac, I do not think he is close due to defensive limitations. I should be clear to distinguish between my evaluations that are factual (such as Zubac being a poor defender, and the team struggling with him on the court) and the projection-based editorials (how good Zubac will be next year, whether or not the team would be fine replacing with Zub replacing Moz). If you disagree with the latter, that's cool by me.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
CRoost
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 21 Mar 2017
Posts: 4790

PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:15 pm    Post subject:

tox wrote:
CRoost wrote:

If the Lakers can get a game changer next year or one of our young guys take over than maybe we should play whoever can play the best in that position. But those stats aren't exactly fair to Zubac because most of those probably came when we decided to take the tank mode direction. Zubac shown a lot of promise and he's only 19. Why would you want limited guys like Moz and Tariq to slow him down because of some meaningless stats from a tanking team. Ingram probably have one of the worst DPRM. Do you want Deng to play over him next year because you think we will be a playoff team?

Sure, part of his poor RPM is circumstance. But the lineups he played in before, say, the ASB were also horrible defensively. And these lineups were fantastic with Tarik. This is the problem with tanking btw -- it's impossible to know if Zubac could replace Mozgov in lineups where the defense was good (like the starters: Russell + Young + Deng + Randle) and see if Zubac is a playable center in those lineups. It's clear he was horrible as a Tarik replacement, but it's unclear if he is a competent Mozgov replacement. In way too limited minutes, the stats suggest he might be fine. But what we do know for a fact is Zubac has been awful in just about every lineup configuration that he has played in, though.

And no, because I understand how DRPM works, I'm not just going to toss it out. Unlike you, I don't start from an opinion and evaluate stats based on if they agree with my opinion. Ingram has a horrible RPM because he was horrible for most of the season. Yes, there's still a pretty strong argument if winning is our first concern, then we should start Deng instead of Ingram next season. But at least there's also an argument based on his growth this season that by next season, he'll be good enough to earn that role and we can toss the stats out the window. Zubac is starting a much more significant deficit than Ingram -- so unless he shows a significant improvement in defensive awareness, he'll be far more detrimental than Ingram.

BTW: I suspect Ingram his 2nd year will be a near average league starter, like Russell in his 2nd year. That's why I don't mind him starting. Zubac, I do not think he is close due to defensive limitations. I should be clear to distinguish between my evaluations that are factual (such as Zubac being a poor defender, and the team struggling with him on the court) and the projection-based editorials (how good Zubac will be next year, whether or not the team would be fine replacing with Zub replacing Moz). If you disagree with the latter, that's cool by me.


Like I said if there's not much difference between Zubac against Moz and Black as far as potential goes than of course play the better defender. To me those stats becomes useless because we went to full tanking mode. And I am not saying Zubac is a good defender either. I'm just saying that Zubac is showing a lot of promise for his age and I want to see how far can we extract from his potential. Right now, none of these guys can show that they can anchor the team defensively. The difference is Zubac is 19 and both of those guys are already in their physical prime and Zubac body is still on developmental stage.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
tox
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 16 Nov 2015
Posts: 17835

PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:44 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
Like I said if there's not much difference between Zubac against Moz and Black as far as potential goes than of course play the better defender. To me those stats becomes useless because we went to full tanking mode. And I am not saying Zubac is a good defender either. I'm just saying that Zubac is showing a lot of promise for his age and I want to see how far can we extract from his potential. Right now, none of these guys can show that they can anchor the team defensively. The difference is Zubac is 19 and both of those guys are already in their physical prime and Zubac body is still on developmental stage.


Drop the development angle. I'm not talking about development. If we're talking about development, then obviously play Zubac, whose potential is astronomical compared to Tarik or Mozgov. And make no mistake -- I can see Zu's potential very clearly, especially on offense.

That said, if we're talking about what we should do if we want to win, then maybe we should take a step back and realize -- you know, the team is really bad when Zubac plays. You keep saying no one has shown they can anchor the team defensively, but the key is that Zubac is what you might call an anti-defensive anchor. He has shown he can take functional defenses and make them terrible. So no, Tarik Black isn't a defensive anchor, yet his relative impact on a defense to Zubac's is basically defensive anchor-status. You can't just chalk everything up to tanking numbers because we can look at the data from before the team was tanking.

Which, again, is my point. I'm open to the argument that if you put Zubac in the same lineups where Mozgov was successful, then the Lakers would be fine. That is a convincing argument, and as we don't have the data one way or another, that certainly may be the case. But the actual reasoning you've provided is thoroughly unconvincing.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Travis Bickle
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 31 Jul 2001
Posts: 2895

PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:49 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:


You could build a legit playoff team that had Mozgov and Deng playing significant minutes at 5 and 4 together.


I have to disagree with you about Deng. He has been horrible this season. He is nowhere near the player he was 2/3 years go.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
tox
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 16 Nov 2015
Posts: 17835

PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:52 pm    Post subject:

Travis Bickle wrote:
Omar Little wrote:


You could build a legit playoff team that had Mozgov and Deng playing significant minutes at 5 and 4 together.


I have to disagree with you about Deng. He has been horrible this season. He is nowhere near the player he was 2/3 years go.


http://imgur.com/a/BfPhg

I'd say Deng has been just fine, if you don't put him next to Mr. Ball Pounder.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Omar Little
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 90299
Location: Formerly Known As 24

PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 7:52 pm    Post subject:

Travis Bickle wrote:
Omar Little wrote:


You could build a legit playoff team that had Mozgov and Deng playing significant minutes at 5 and 4 together.


I have to disagree with you about Deng. He has been horrible this season. He is nowhere near the player he was 2/3 years go.


He's been way off shooting, but hasn't mucked up a professional lineup. So much of basketball is about lineups, not collections of player stats
_________________
“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Travis Bickle
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 31 Jul 2001
Posts: 2895

PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:02 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
Travis Bickle wrote:
Omar Little wrote:


You could build a legit playoff team that had Mozgov and Deng playing significant minutes at 5 and 4 together.


I have to disagree with you about Deng. He has been horrible this season. He is nowhere near the player he was 2/3 years go.


He's been way off shooting, but hasn't mucked up a professional lineup. So much of basketball is about lineups, not collections of player stats


His stats look bad and I can only judge by what I see. He seems very slow compared to the player a couple of years ago. Since he is 30+, it will only get worse from here on out. He seems like a good guy but in my opinion this was a bad signing. I'm a Lakers fan so I will cheer for him and hope for the best but I have to also be realistic the future of Deng.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
CRoost
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 21 Mar 2017
Posts: 4790

PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:06 pm    Post subject:

tox wrote:
Quote:
Like I said if there's not much difference between Zubac against Moz and Black as far as potential goes than of course play the better defender. To me those stats becomes useless because we went to full tanking mode. And I am not saying Zubac is a good defender either. I'm just saying that Zubac is showing a lot of promise for his age and I want to see how far can we extract from his potential. Right now, none of these guys can show that they can anchor the team defensively. The difference is Zubac is 19 and both of those guys are already in their physical prime and Zubac body is still on developmental stage.


Drop the development angle. I'm not talking about development. If we're talking about development, then obviously play Zubac, whose potential is astronomical compared to Tarik or Mozgov. And make no mistake -- I can see Zu's potential very clearly, especially on offense.

That said, if we're talking about what we should do if we want to win, then maybe we should take a step back and realize -- you know, the team is really bad when Zubac plays. You keep saying no one has shown they can anchor the team defensively, but the key is that Zubac is what you might call an anti-defensive anchor. He has shown he can take functional defenses and make them terrible. So no, Tarik Black isn't a defensive anchor, yet his relative impact on a defense to Zubac's is basically defensive anchor-status. You can't just chalk everything up to tanking numbers because we can look at the data from before the team was tanking.

Which, again, is my point. I'm open to the argument that if you put Zubac in the same lineups where Mozgov was successful, then the Lakers would be fine. That is a convincing argument, and as we don't have the data one way or another, that certainly may be the case. But the actual reasoning you've provided is thoroughly unconvincing.


I just think you are too locked in with that stats and you forgot that the Lakers are about development at this time. I do recall that Black played well off the bench in the beginning but struggled when he started. I dunno if that stat even measured separately against starters and against bench players because there's a huge difference between them. To me both of those guys Moz and Black are expendable. I rather see what Zubac can do at both ends than go through painstakingly think Moz and Black can anchor the team defensively because they supposedly have a better defensive stat than a 19 year old.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
greenfrog
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 02 Jan 2011
Posts: 36081
Location: 502 Bad Gateway

PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:15 pm    Post subject:

The only advantage I see Moz having to Zu is verticality, which is an experience thing that Moz may even be teaching him. Both are liabilities on the perimeter, but Zu is bouncier in the paint and can get up for blocks.

Black against most centers (there are some notable exceptions) is better defensively than both. What he surrenders in size he makes up for in effort and agility.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
BigBallerBrand
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Posts: 5785
Location: LA

PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:43 pm    Post subject:

Honestly both mozgov and Deng still have some game left. They just deserve about half of what they r making
_________________
Billions Billions Billions
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
dcarter4kobe
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 30 Jul 2005
Posts: 17656

PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:51 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
Travis Bickle wrote:
Omar Little wrote:


You could build a legit playoff team that had Mozgov and Deng playing significant minutes at 5 and 4 together.


I have to disagree with you about Deng. He has been horrible this season. He is nowhere near the player he was 2/3 years go.


He's been way off shooting, but hasn't mucked up a professional lineup. So much of basketball is about lineups, not collections of player stats

KD/Klay/Steph better be the 3-1. Looking at the standings Moz/Deng would be worst, or close to, starting 5/4 among playoff teams in the NBA. Possibly edging out OKC and thats only b/c they start Sabonis over Gibson (who still plays more)
_________________
"He's a Zen master, so he can speak to you, and he doesn't need a microphone; you can hear him in your head, 'Ron, don't shoot, don't shoot.' Whatever, pow, three. I love the Zen, though."


Last edited by dcarter4kobe on Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
tox
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 16 Nov 2015
Posts: 17835

PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:54 pm    Post subject:

CRoost wrote:
tox wrote:
Quote:
Like I said if there's not much difference between Zubac against Moz and Black as far as potential goes than of course play the better defender. To me those stats becomes useless because we went to full tanking mode. And I am not saying Zubac is a good defender either. I'm just saying that Zubac is showing a lot of promise for his age and I want to see how far can we extract from his potential. Right now, none of these guys can show that they can anchor the team defensively. The difference is Zubac is 19 and both of those guys are already in their physical prime and Zubac body is still on developmental stage.


Drop the development angle. I'm not talking about development. If we're talking about development, then obviously play Zubac, whose potential is astronomical compared to Tarik or Mozgov. And make no mistake -- I can see Zu's potential very clearly, especially on offense.

That said, if we're talking about what we should do if we want to win, then maybe we should take a step back and realize -- you know, the team is really bad when Zubac plays. You keep saying no one has shown they can anchor the team defensively, but the key is that Zubac is what you might call an anti-defensive anchor. He has shown he can take functional defenses and make them terrible. So no, Tarik Black isn't a defensive anchor, yet his relative impact on a defense to Zubac's is basically defensive anchor-status. You can't just chalk everything up to tanking numbers because we can look at the data from before the team was tanking.

Which, again, is my point. I'm open to the argument that if you put Zubac in the same lineups where Mozgov was successful, then the Lakers would be fine. That is a convincing argument, and as we don't have the data one way or another, that certainly may be the case. But the actual reasoning you've provided is thoroughly unconvincing.


I just think you are too locked in with that stats and you forgot that the Lakers are about development at this time. I do recall that Black played well off the bench in the beginning but struggled when he started. I dunno if that stat even measured separately against starters and against bench players because there's a huge difference between them. To me both of those guys Moz and Black are expendable. I rather see what Zubac can do at both ends than go through painstakingly think Moz and Black can anchor the team defensively because they supposedly have a better defensive stat than a 19 year old.


I'm not locked into anything. I watch the games, look at the numbers, and try to make sense of the two. When it comes to Zubac being horrible on defense, they align pretty neatly. Is that so hard to understand?

Furthermore, it's clear you're not engaging with the argument I'm actually making whatsoever. At no point have I said the Lakers are not about development, and I know that will hurt lineup data with Zubac on the court. But Zubac blows coverages and doesn't get rebounds, and surprise surprise, lineup data reflects that.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Omar Little
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 90299
Location: Formerly Known As 24

PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:55 pm    Post subject:

dcarter4kobe wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
Travis Bickle wrote:
Omar Little wrote:


You could build a legit playoff team that had Mozgov and Deng playing significant minutes at 5 and 4 together.


I have to disagree with you about Deng. He has been horrible this season. He is nowhere near the player he was 2/3 years go.


He's been way off shooting, but hasn't mucked up a professional lineup. So much of basketball is about lineups, not collections of player stats

KD/Klay/Steph better be the 3-1. Looking at the standings Moz/Deng would be worst, or close to, starting 5/4 among playoff teams in the NBA. Possibly edging out OKC and thats only b/c they start Sabonis over Gibson (who still play more)


They were holding their own with Russell Swaggy and Randle, or if you prefer post December, Russell Swaggy and either black or ingram.
_________________
“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
tox
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 16 Nov 2015
Posts: 17835

PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:05 pm    Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:
The only advantage I see Moz having to Zu is verticality, which is an experience thing that Moz may even be teaching him. Both are liabilities on the perimeter, but Zu is bouncier in the paint and can get up for blocks.

Black against most centers (there are some notable exceptions) is better defensively than both. What he surrenders in size he makes up for in effort and agility.

Honestly, I thought Moz's verticality was really overrated this year. The biggest positive I have to say about Moz on defense is he didn't really make that many mistakes. Like, he's limited in the PnR coverages he runs, his effort was underwhelming (I think Randle at the 4 + losing so much demotivated him, but that's not an excuse for a pro), and he was not a good shot blocker. But that positive (not messing up) goes a looong way. I mean, Russell/ Young/ Deng/ Mozgov is a very solid defensive quartet, and was any of them actually a plus defender this year? Maybe Deng, but not by much if he was. They just had good length and rotated like they should have.

As far as his comparison to Zu goes, I'm actually curious if Synergy has the numbers for comparison. I should get GT to chime in. For me, what stands out is Zubac's effort and effectiveness on the defensive boards. He's really bad there. Bulking up will help some, but to be honest, a lot of it just looks like effort to me. He stands around (often without boxing out) and just ball watches on the glass. I also notice he misses rotations but our defense is such a mess that I'm not sure how much is his fault.

I said it before, but I wish we weren't tanking so we could run a lineup of Russell/ Young/ Deng/ Randle/ Zubac. With Moz in place of Zubac, that's a pretty competent defensive lineup. How does Zubac fare? I don't really care if Zubac himself is a good defender, so much as whether or not he can be part of good defensive lineups. That's where I stand with Moz -- it's not so much that I have a ton of praise for his individual defense this season, so much as I acknowledge he was part of a VERY competent defensive core despite no stud defenders. All that matters to me is team performance, and in that regard, Moz offers some clear value.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
unleasHell
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 16 Apr 2001
Posts: 11591
Location: Stay Thirsty my Friends

PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 8:38 am    Post subject:

Anyone notice that MozGoof's salary DECREASES next season?

Hope he doesn't take this to heart and show a reduction in his awesome stats...!
_________________
“Always remember... Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots.”
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    LakersGround.net Forum Index -> General Basketball Discussion All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 66, 67, 68 ... 71, 72, 73  Next
Page 67 of 73
Jump to:  

 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum






Graphics by uberzev
© 1995-2018 LakersGround.net. All Rights Reserved. Privacy Policy. Terms of Use.
LakersGround is an unofficial news source serving the fan community since 1995.
We are in no way associated with the Los Angeles Lakers or the National Basketball Association.


Powered by phpBB