It's not a referendum on who the best player is in a general sense; it's a vote on who performed better that one reason. Often the two things are not exactly the same.
Eh. At no point of this season would any decent basketball person proclaim Harden the best player, even if they were only going by the standards of this season.
That's the point. Your idea that Lebron should win because of your belief that you could put him on the other teams and they would do better is just another way saying he is the best player in the league. But that says nothing about how anyone has actually performed during this season -- which is what the award is about.
I don't see how you can base the MVP award on a woulda-coulda-shoulda guess of how guys would do in hypothetical scenarios.
The award is about whatever the voter values. Theres no official criteria. It's whatever the voter wants it to be. My personal criteria isn't a hypothetical. It's based on who is the best basketball player in the year 2017. That is not James Harden. Based off just this season alone I don't think Harden has been the best player. None of that is hypothetical. I used the example of putting swapping the other guys with LeBron because I think it helps illustrate that he's better than them. That example is not the sole basis for my pick. _________________ 14-5-3-12
Houston's improvement has been impressive, though you could make the case that's more a product of D'Antoni than Harden. Harden was there last year too.
D'Antoni hasn't had coaching success in years. Harden took his team to the 2nd best record in the West (missing 3 starters for half the season, including Howard), the WCF's and finished 2nd in MVP voting just two seasons ago. So can't agree with ya on that one, as far as it being more of a product of D'Antoni.
ocho wrote:
Harden isn't the best player in the game.
He's clearly not, but that's not the criteria for MVP. If it were then LeBron should just win it every year.
Last edited by Dreamshake on Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
Westbrook. Harden has been great, but Rockets are also perfect fit for MDA system with shooters around. If you put Harden in OKC, they are probably worse and his stats won't be the same.
Doubt it. He's just a much more efficient player than Westbrook. Westbrook has more help on his team than Harden had two seasons ago when 3 starters got hurt and he still carried us to a top Western seed. He also took us to the playoffs his first season here without a very good supporting cast. Both years with a vanilla offense and a coach that wasn't great.
This team doesn't have great shooting or better bigs than what OKC has now (considering Howard missed half the season):
It's not a referendum on who the best player is in a general sense; it's a vote on who performed better that one reason. Often the two things are not exactly the same.
Eh. At no point of this season would any decent basketball person proclaim Harden the best player, even if they were only going by the standards of this season.
That's the point. Your idea that Lebron should win because of your belief that you could put him on the other teams and they would do better is just another way saying he is the best player in the league. But that says nothing about how anyone has actually performed during this season -- which is what the award is about.
I don't see how you can base the MVP award on a woulda-coulda-shoulda guess of how guys would do in hypothetical scenarios.
The award is about whatever the voter values. Theres no official criteria. It's whatever the voter wants it to be. My personal criteria isn't a hypothetical. It's based on who is the best basketball player in the year 2017. That is not James Harden. Based off just this season alone I don't think Harden has been the best player. None of that is hypothetical. I used the example of putting swapping the other guys with LeBron because I think it helps illustrate that he's better than them. That example is not the sole basis for my pick.
There is no official criteria, but we certainly can see voting trends over the years that tell us what factors that voters think are important.
When people say "best player" they usually mean the player who is considered the best player in the league over a certain period of time. So, say, you might think Kobe was the best player in the NBA during the 2000s.
I don't know what "best player in the league" means in the context of a single season.
This is Russell Westbrook pretty clearly. If you want stats, the man wins out . If you want "impact" then he blows everyone out of the water as the numbers show.
Honestly, if you believed Kobe in 06 was the MVP (which I most certainly did) then Westbrook should be your automatic vote. Truly historical stuff.
Man, I swear Harden and Rockets fans want the MVP more than the title. It is hilarious reading their forum. You would think MVP is not nearly as prestigious as the Larry O'brien trophy.
Should finish ahead of Harden in the voting as well. The best 2-way player, all-pro on both ends, out of all the MVP candidates. People love touting defense, yet don't vote that way. _________________ Smrek 2, Nevitt 1, Barkley 0
Joined: 25 Apr 2015 Posts: 31912 Location: Anaheim, CA
Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 12:00 am Post subject:
Dreamshake wrote:
audioaxes wrote:
I dont see how you dont give him the MVP.
Because this guy in Houston has carried a team projected to finish worse than OKC to the 3rd best record in basketball, while only avg 2 less rebounds but shooting better all across the board and playing better defense (not saying Harden's D is great but Westbrook is arguably the worst defensive PG in basketball this year).
Sorry, but that is just silly, and the stats back me up. Westbrook has 4.1 defensive win shares and a 4.5 DBPM, while Harden is at 3.4 and 1.4, respectively. That 1.4 DBPM mark actually represents Harden's best effort as a pro, so perhaps he hasn't quite been as much of a dog on D as he has been in the past. Still, he's not a better defender than Russell Westbrook is.
I will note that Kawhi Leonard also has a DBPM of 1.4 this season. Stats don't always tell the story, yeah. But it's a huge leap for me to think that Harden has played better D than Westbrook this season.
Because this guy in Houston has carried a team projected to finish worse than OKC to the 3rd best record in basketball, while only avg 2 less rebounds but shooting better all across the board and playing better defense (not saying Harden's D is great but Westbrook is arguably the worst defensive PG in basketball this year).
Sorry, but that is just silly, and the stats back me up. Westbrook has 4.1 defensive win shares and a 4.5 DBPM, while Harden is at 3.4 and 1.4, respectively. That 1.4 DBPM mark actually represents Harden's best effort as a pro, so perhaps he hasn't quite been as much of a dog on D as he has been in the past. Still, he's not a better defender than Russell Westbrook is.
I will note that Kawhi Leonard also has a DBPM of 1.4 this season. Stats don't always tell the story, yeah. But it's a huge leap for me to think that Harden has played better D than Westbrook this season.
Westbrook leads the LEAGUE in uncontested shots give up (some centers like Jordan have even contested more 3's than him), and guys are scoring better on him in almost every category. He's sagging back on D to stay near the paint to chase boards, and it should be easy to see if you watch him play.
As far as win shares, the teams total defense has something to do with that metric. Going off memory, I recall prior years when Boozer had better win shares while playing for the D minded Bulls than Tyson Chandler had while playing for the Knicks. The he became a Laker and his W/S instantly dropped from 4 to 1.
Joined: 24 Dec 2007 Posts: 35812 Location: Santa Clarita, CA (Hell) ->>>>>Ithaca, NY -≥≥≥≥≥Berkeley, CA
Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 9:43 am Post subject:
Dreamshake wrote:
ChickenStu wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
audioaxes wrote:
I dont see how you dont give him the MVP.
Because this guy in Houston has carried a team projected to finish worse than OKC to the 3rd best record in basketball, while only avg 2 less rebounds but shooting better all across the board and playing better defense (not saying Harden's D is great but Westbrook is arguably the worst defensive PG in basketball this year).
Sorry, but that is just silly, and the stats back me up. Westbrook has 4.1 defensive win shares and a 4.5 DBPM, while Harden is at 3.4 and 1.4, respectively. That 1.4 DBPM mark actually represents Harden's best effort as a pro, so perhaps he hasn't quite been as much of a dog on D as he has been in the past. Still, he's not a better defender than Russell Westbrook is.
I will note that Kawhi Leonard also has a DBPM of 1.4 this season. Stats don't always tell the story, yeah. But it's a huge leap for me to think that Harden has played better D than Westbrook this season.
Westbrook leads the LEAGUE in uncontested shots give up (some centers like Jordan have even contested more 3's than him), and guys are scoring better on him in almost every category. He's sagging back on D to stay near the paint to chase boards, and it should be easy to see if you watch him play.
As far as win shares, the teams total defense has something to do with that metric. Going off memory, I recall prior years when Boozer had better win shares while playing for the D minded Bulls than Tyson Chandler had while playing for the Knicks. The he became a Laker and his W/S instantly dropped from 4 to 1.
Wasn't Westbrook considered an elite defender for most of his career? _________________ Damian Lillard shatters Dwight Coward's championship dreams:
If it doesn't go to Westbrook, it will be like Shawshank Redemption losing the Best Picture Oscar to Forrest Gump. _________________ Lakers. Built different.
Had Westbrook at the beginning of the year based on him being the sole superstar on his team and trying to make up for the loss of Durant. As far as individual performances goes, Westbrook wins out, but his team will probably be eliminated earlier in the playoffs than the Rockets, who are playing much better as a team this year because of their success in incorporating MDA's offensive system with D12 gone.
When is the MVP announced and handed out? Second round of the playoffs? Westbrook to be the next Dirk.
after the season ends this year _________________ I believe everything the media tells me except for anything for which I have direct personal knowledge, which they always get wrong
Had Westbrook at the beginning of the year based on him being the sole superstar on his team and trying to make up for the loss of Durant. As far as individual performances goes, Westbrook wins out, but his team will probably be eliminated earlier in the playoffs than the Rockets, who are playing much better as a team this year because of their success in incorporating MDA's offensive system with D12 gone.
They vote for the MVP before the playoffs begin, so playoff success isn't a factor.
So Westbrook has clinched a 30/10 season already, through 78 games.
* He needs 6 total assists in the final 4 games to clinch a triple-double season average
* He needs 1 more triple-double game in the final 4 games to own the single-season record for himself
* He is on pace to become the 10th man in NBA history to have a 30+ PER season
He has also scored 241 points in the clutch this season (last 5 mins of games with a margin of 5 points or less) which is the most since LeBron in 07/08 had 270ish. I think he also has the most assists in the clutch too.
OKC are also +80 in the clutch when Westbrook is on the floor.
Joined: 17 Nov 2007 Posts: 67620 Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
Posted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 10:05 am Post subject:
ocho wrote:
1. LeBron
2. Leonard
3. Harden
4. Westbrook
+1 James is doing more for his team and the league than Westbrook or Harden.
Leonard is not given the credit he deserves. He's the most underappreciated player since Timmy Duncan. The Spurs are like that. They fly under the radar.
What criterion do you use? Stats don't a MVP make. Value to the team and league are more important to me. _________________ Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
Last edited by jodeke on Sat Apr 08, 2017 4:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 10:55 am Post subject:
audioaxes wrote:
i know Westbrook is shameless stat pads but its a HUGE feat nonetheless to avg 32/10/10 in today's NBA and carried his team to a NBA playoff birth. I dont see how you dont give him the MVP. Its easy for the act of averaging a triple double to kinda lose its shock value after you heard about it nonstop for months now but if you put it back in perspective its something truly historical and something I put up there with Chamberlain's 100pt game as something I thought it was nearly impossible for someone to do again in how NBA games are played now
Wouldn't surprise me if he didn't get it though. Kobe got robbed the same way. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
I think I would give it to Westbrook and the feeling I get is he is going to win it, but I do feel bad for Harden. He has had a amazing season. This will be his second chance at winning MVP and possibly coming up short again. Kawhi and Lebron also going to get the short end of the stick. They can easily be MVP a different year.
I think for a while now people have started dismissing Lebron for this award. Yes Lebron is mentioned this year as a candidate but I don't think a lot of voters are seriously considering voting for him. I guess it is looked at like his team has underachieved. Lebron with 2 all-stars and good talent around them and they are barely hanging on to the 1st seed while the 3 best records in the NBA are in the West.
It is amazing to think that Kawhi could have a finals MVP, defensive player of the year and a league MVP at 25 years old. Crazy to see his development from the 15th pick traded on draft day.
I know Russ has some talent on his team but when I watch OKC games I picture OKC as one of the worse teams in the NBA if Westbrook wasn't on the team. And really they don't have great shooters around him. I think Russ would have a field day on that Rockets team in the D'antoni system. Statistically when Russ is on the bench his team takes the biggest hit compared to all the other MVP candidates when they are on the bench.
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144461 Location: The Gold Coast
Posted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 2:11 pm Post subject:
Lebron. I would never vote for a player whose team wasn't top 4. How can you be valuable to the league if you can't get HCA? _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023.
42nd triple double and a game winning 3 buzzer beater for Westbrook.
Another 50 point triple double too.
If he doesn't win the MVP it'll be a crime against humanity. _________________ A banana is killed every time a terrible thread or post is made. Save the bananas. Stop creating terrible posts!
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