Tracy McGrady makes the Hall of Fame
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activeverb
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 9:37 am    Post subject:

vanexelent wrote:
activeverb wrote:
vanexelent wrote:


Johnson was in the Top 10 in scoring a few years. Chris Bosh will probably be in the HOF and he's rarely been in the top 10 in points or rebounds. But he's played in 11 All Star games and attached himself to Lebron for a couple rings. .



Actually, Johnson has never been in top 10 in scoring average or points in any year his entire career. The only top 10 things he's done have to do with the amount he's played -- games, minutes, FG attempts.



See below. For most of his prime he was Top 15 in both categories, often #11 or #12.

2005-2006 Season:
Points Per Game
1. Kobe Bryant • LAL 31.6
2. Carmelo Anthony • DEN 28.9
3. Gilbert Arenas • WAS 28.4
4. LeBron James • CLE 27.3
5. Michael Redd • MIL 26.7
6. Ray Allen • SEA 26.4
7. Allen Iverson* • TOT 26.3
8. Vince Carter • NJN 25.2
9. Joe Johnson • ATL 25.0
10. Tracy McGrady • HOU 24.6

2006-2007 Season:


Points Per Game
1. Kobe Bryant • LAL 31.6
2. Carmelo Anthony • DEN 28.9
3. Gilbert Arenas • WAS 28.4
4. LeBron James • CLE 27.3
5. Michael Redd • MIL 26.7
6. Ray Allen • SEA 26.4
7. Allen Iverson* • TOT 26.3
8. Vince Carter • NJN 25.2
9. Joe Johnson • ATL 25.0
10. Tracy McGrady • HOU 24.6




2007-2008 Season:

Points
1. Kobe Bryant • LAL 2323
2. LeBron James • CLE 2250
3. Allen Iverson* • DEN 2164
4. Amar'e Stoudemire • PHO 1989
5. Carmelo Anthony • DEN 1978
6. Richard Jefferson • NJN 1857
7. Dirk Nowitzki • DAL 1817
8. Baron Davis • GSW 1791
9. Jason Richardson • CHA 1788
10. Joe Johnson • ATL 1779



I use Basketball-Reference. They list his scoring average as 20.2 ppg in 05-06, so I think you're mistaken that year.

BR doesn't list him as top 10 on his personal page, but it looks like that's an error and he made top 10 scoring once and top 10 in points once. So that is right, but that's very modest for a Hall of Famer.

McGrady, in contrast, was top 10 in ppg 6 times in his career and top 10 in points 6 times. (And he actually led the league in scoring twice.)
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 9:58 am    Post subject:

CandyCanes wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
What about Antawn Jamison? He has borderline HoF level stats but pretty much did not have a meaningful career.


If you want a close case among recent players, try Shawn Marion. At his peak, he put up some good stats. He is a four time all star. He won a ring. He made the all NBA team a couple times. The tracker puts him at 75%. I don't think he makes it, but he might.


75%? I considered Marion to be on the same level as Lamar Odom, maybe slightly higher-- barely even an All-Star level player, let alone a Hall of Famer.

What about Derrick Rose?


Lamar Odom never made the all-star team and never sniffed the all-NBA team. Every MVP has made the HoF, but Rose is going to test that rule.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 10:01 am    Post subject:

vanexelent wrote:
activeverb wrote:


Bosh was a dominant performer as the main guy on a bad team


He averaged 20 PPG/ 9 RPG in Toronto. Dominant? Is Zach Randolph dominant? Because he did that for over a decade.


At his peak, he was 24/10.8.
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vanexelent
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 10:05 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
activeverb wrote:


Bosh was a dominant performer as the main guy on a bad team


He averaged 20 PPG/ 9 RPG in Toronto. Dominant? Is Zach Randolph dominant? Because he did that for over a decade.


At his peak, he was 24/10.8.


Zach Randolph 23/10 peak.
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activeverb
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 10:24 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
activeverb wrote:


Bosh was a dominant performer as the main guy on a bad team


He averaged 20 PPG/ 9 RPG in Toronto. Dominant? Is Zach Randolph dominant? Because he did that for over a decade.


At his peak, he was 24/10.8.



Randolph was certainly a good player, but a notch below Bosh for me.

In his 5 prime years in Toronto Bosh averaged about 23-10 on 50% and made 5 all-star teams.

Randolph had an 8-year stretch where he averaged about 20-10 on lesser shooting, with lesser defense, and made 1 all-star team. His career high season you mentioned was cut short by a hand injury and he was traded immediately afterwards, and then traded twice more over the next two seasons.

Bosh was top 10 in scoring 3 times, while Zach was never top 10. Zach had more seasons in top 10 rebounding though.

On Basketball-Reference's HOF Monitor, Bosh has a 99.5% chance of making the Hall; Zach has a 0.6% chance. So between them, one of them has about 100% chance


Last edited by activeverb on Fri Apr 07, 2017 10:45 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 10:28 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
What about Antawn Jamison? He has borderline HoF level stats but pretty much did not have a meaningful career.


If you want a close case among recent players, try Shawn Marion. At his peak, he put up some good stats. He is a four time all star. He won a ring. He made the all NBA team a couple times. The tracker puts him at 75%. I don't think he makes it, but he might.


75%? I considered Marion to be on the same level as Lamar Odom, maybe slightly higher-- barely even an All-Star level player, let alone a Hall of Famer.

What about Derrick Rose?


Lamar Odom never made the all-star team and never sniffed the all-NBA team. Every MVP has made the HoF, but Rose is going to test that rule.



Marion and Odom are guys who seem roughly the same class when you think about them; but when you actually examine their career accomplishments, Marion is a notch above. Still, I am surprised he's at 75%.

The last MVP who had trouble getting in was McAdoo. Took him forever. I don't see Rose making it.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 10:51 am    Post subject:

vanexelent wrote:
activeverb wrote:
vanexelent wrote:


Johnson was in the Top 10 in scoring a few years. Chris Bosh will probably be in the HOF and he's rarely been in the top 10 in points or rebounds. But he's played in 11 All Star games and attached himself to Lebron for a couple rings. .



Actually, Johnson has never been in top 10 in scoring average or points in any year his entire career. The only top 10 things he's done have to do with the amount he's played -- games, minutes, FG attempts.



See below. For most of his prime he was Top 15 in both categories, often #11 or #12.

2005-2006 Season:
Points Per Game
1. Kobe Bryant • LAL 31.6
2. Carmelo Anthony • DEN 28.9
3. Gilbert Arenas • WAS 28.4
4. LeBron James • CLE 27.3
5. Michael Redd • MIL 26.7
6. Ray Allen • SEA 26.4
7. Allen Iverson* • TOT 26.3
8. Vince Carter • NJN 25.2
9. Joe Johnson • ATL 25.0
10. Tracy McGrady • HOU 24.6

2006-2007 Season:


Points Per Game
1. Kobe Bryant • LAL 31.6
2. Carmelo Anthony • DEN 28.9
3. Gilbert Arenas • WAS 28.4
4. LeBron James • CLE 27.3
5. Michael Redd • MIL 26.7
6. Ray Allen • SEA 26.4
7. Allen Iverson* • TOT 26.3
8. Vince Carter • NJN 25.2
9. Joe Johnson • ATL 25.0
10. Tracy McGrady • HOU 24.6




2007-2008 Season:

Points
1. Kobe Bryant • LAL 2323
2. LeBron James • CLE 2250
3. Allen Iverson* • DEN 2164
4. Amar'e Stoudemire • PHO 1989
5. Carmelo Anthony • DEN 1978
6. Richard Jefferson • NJN 1857
7. Dirk Nowitzki • DAL 1817
8. Baron Davis • GSW 1791
9. Jason Richardson • CHA 1788
10. Joe Johnson • ATL 1779


You put 2006-2007's stats for both 2005-2006 and 2006-2007.
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focus
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 2:26 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
activeverb wrote:


Bosh was a dominant performer as the main guy on a bad team


He averaged 20 PPG/ 9 RPG in Toronto. Dominant? Is Zach Randolph dominant? Because he did that for over a decade.


At his peak, he was 24/10.8.



Randolph was certainly a good player, but a notch below Bosh for me.

In his 5 prime years in Toronto Bosh averaged about 23-10 on 50% and made 5 all-star teams.

Randolph had an 8-year stretch where he averaged about 20-10 on lesser shooting, with lesser defense, and made 1 all-star team. His career high season you mentioned was cut short by a hand injury and he was traded immediately afterwards, and then traded twice more over the next two seasons.

Bosh was top 10 in scoring 3 times, while Zach was never top 10. Zach had more seasons in top 10 rebounding though.

On Basketball-Reference's HOF Monitor, Bosh has a 99.5% chance of making the Hall; Zach has a 0.6% chance. So between them, one of them has about 100% chance


Bosh --> 99.5%??? Wth Coattail riding really works out. I really like him too but geez. 2 rings as a #3 - a good one, definitely, but a #3 - should be more debatable. What he did in Toronto was fine, I liked him and really appreciate what he did in Canada and also in accepting his role in Miami and hitting clutch shots, but I never thought of him as a HoFer.

Zach neither in my opinion.
But they have Manu at 20%???? Geez, that's ridiculous.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 2:59 pm    Post subject:

focus wrote:
activeverb wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
activeverb wrote:


Bosh was a dominant performer as the main guy on a bad team


He averaged 20 PPG/ 9 RPG in Toronto. Dominant? Is Zach Randolph dominant? Because he did that for over a decade.


At his peak, he was 24/10.8.



Randolph was certainly a good player, but a notch below Bosh for me.

In his 5 prime years in Toronto Bosh averaged about 23-10 on 50% and made 5 all-star teams.

Randolph had an 8-year stretch where he averaged about 20-10 on lesser shooting, with lesser defense, and made 1 all-star team. His career high season you mentioned was cut short by a hand injury and he was traded immediately afterwards, and then traded twice more over the next two seasons.

Bosh was top 10 in scoring 3 times, while Zach was never top 10. Zach had more seasons in top 10 rebounding though.

On Basketball-Reference's HOF Monitor, Bosh has a 99.5% chance of making the Hall; Zach has a 0.6% chance. So between them, one of them has about 100% chance


Bosh --> 99.5%??? Wth Coattail riding really works out. I really like him too but geez. 2 rings as a #3 - a good one, definitely, but a #3 - should be more debatable. What he did in Toronto was fine, I liked him and really appreciate what he did in Canada and also in accepting his role in Miami and hitting clutch shots, but I never thought of him as a HoFer.

Zach neither in my opinion.
But they have Manu at 20%???? Geez, that's ridiculous.


1. This formula rates a players chances based solely on their NBA career; their college and international play isn't a factor. And based on his NBA career alone, Manu probably doesn't have much chance of getting into the Hall. Guys who get in based on their college (Ralph Sampson) or international play (Sabonis) fall outside what this formula is designed to measure.

2. Understand, this formula does nothing more than compare players accomplishments against the accomplishment of those who have gotten into the Hall. A 19-9 player, who makes 11 all-star teams and wins two rings is pretty much a lock. The 11 all-star games is pretty amazing -- when you make a list of the other guys who have done that it's pretty much the all-time Top 50 Team.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 6:55 pm    Post subject:

Chris Bosh is Lamarcus Aldridge without a Lebron and a conference with no PF/C to beat him out of an All Star game.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 8:03 pm    Post subject:

vanexelent wrote:
Chris Bosh is Lamarcus Aldridge without a Lebron and a conference with no PF/C to beat him out of an All Star game.


I wouldn't dispute that. However, the HoF is full of guys who got there due to favorable circumstances.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 9:24 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
Chris Bosh is Lamarcus Aldridge without a Lebron and a conference with no PF/C to beat him out of an All Star game.


I wouldn't dispute that. However, the HoF is full of guys who got there due to favorable circumstances.


Between T-Mac and Bosh there's a whole lot of contortion to get them in.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 9:29 pm    Post subject:

vanexelent wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
Chris Bosh is Lamarcus Aldridge without a Lebron and a conference with no PF/C to beat him out of an All Star game.


I wouldn't dispute that. However, the HoF is full of guys who got there due to favorable circumstances.


Between T-Mac and Bosh there's a whole lot of contortion to get them in.


Ultimately, guys are evaluated based on their accomplishments, and accomplishments depend a lot on situations. There are lots of guys who are in and out of the Hall because of the right/wrong teammates, eras, and other factors.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 9:37 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
Chris Bosh is Lamarcus Aldridge without a Lebron and a conference with no PF/C to beat him out of an All Star game.


I wouldn't dispute that. However, the HoF is full of guys who got there due to favorable circumstances.


Between T-Mac and Bosh there's a whole lot of contortion to get them in.


Ultimately, guys are evaluated based on their accomplishments, and accomplishments depend a lot on situations. There are lots of guys who are in and out of the Hall because of the right/wrong teammates, eras, and other factors.


But what are their accomplishments? They don't stand alone.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 9:52 pm    Post subject:

vanexelent wrote:
activeverb wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
Chris Bosh is Lamarcus Aldridge without a Lebron and a conference with no PF/C to beat him out of an All Star game.


I wouldn't dispute that. However, the HoF is full of guys who got there due to favorable circumstances.


Between T-Mac and Bosh there's a whole lot of contortion to get them in.


Ultimately, guys are evaluated based on their accomplishments, and accomplishments depend a lot on situations. There are lots of guys who are in and out of the Hall because of the right/wrong teammates, eras, and other factors.


But what are their accomplishments? They don't stand alone.


Accomplishments are stats, rings, and awards.

And those can be affected by situations.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 1:52 pm    Post subject:

vanexelent wrote:
But what are their accomplishments? They don't stand alone.


TMac is already covered in this thread. Bosh is an 11 time all-star. You can put an asterisk next to that if you want, but he's still an 11 time all-star.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 5:00 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
But what are their accomplishments? They don't stand alone.


TMac is already covered in this thread. Bosh is an 11 time all-star. You can put an asterisk next to that if you want, but he's still an 11 time all-star.


To put that in context, here is everyone in NBA history who has made 11 or more all star teams:

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar*[a]

Kobe Bryant†

Tim Duncan†

Kevin Garnett†

Shaquille O'Neal*

Michael Jordan*

Karl Malone*

Jerry West*

Wilt Chamberlain*

Bob Cousy*

John Havlicek*

LeBron James^

Dirk Nowitzki^

Larry Bird*

Elvin Hayes*

Magic Johnson*

Moses Malone*

Hakeem Olajuwon*[b]

Oscar Robertson*

Bill Russell*

Dolph Schayes*

Isiah Thomas*

Dwyane Wade^

Charles Barkley*

Elgin Baylor*

Chris Bosh^

Julius Erving*

Patrick Ewing*

Allen Iverson*

Bob Pettit*
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 8:37 pm    Post subject:

^^^^

That's an interesting list. Bosh is the least distinguished member of that list, and it isn't close. But he's still on it.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:18 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
^^^^

That's an interesting list. Bosh is the least distinguished member of that list, and it isn't close. But he's still on it.


He's definitely the answer to the question, which of these guys are not like the others.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:32 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
There is nothing wrong with him. The point is that he is more or less a typical HoFer. King is a deserving HoFer in my opinion. He did score more points in his career, but TMac beats him easily when you look at advanced stats. In the context of his time, TMac was a better player than King was in the context of his own time.


Was King a good defender? He averaged 32.9 points in his best season and averaged 28.4 in his final season aside from a brief comeback.


No, he was a below average defender. He wasn't terrible, but he didn't add much value on the defensive end. He was a volume scorer, and quite a good one during his healthy seasons. He was sort of a black hole on the offensive end, though.

Remember that the '80s were a fast-paced offensive era and that there wasn't much of a premium on defense. King was having an amazing season when he had that horrific injury after the all-star break. It is a tribute to him that he ever played again, much less that he played well. Still, the post-injury King was not the same.

This is what he looked like with his knee brace after the injury. At the time, people marveled at his toughness.


Terrible defender that made Dirk a complete non factor in a playoff series. The guy just saved energy, but when needed he could defend pretty well. his problem was his back, though thing to play through.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:12 pm    Post subject:

^^^^

You're thinking of someone else. King retired in 1993.
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