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LakerSanity
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 Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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I think DLO is currently more skilled than Ingram, but that Ingram has more natural talent. I think he has an equal or better feel for the game, a great basketball IQ and, most significantly, elite size/mobility that, for the respective positions, DLO can't compete with.
Ingram has already shown a learning curve better than both Dante Exum and Aaron Gordon. Ingram improved and grew more in one season than either Exum or Gordon have in three years. And, Ingram also has elite length/size for his position (along with the mobility to take advantage of it) that neither Gordon or Exum have.
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Andre2K
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| Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| fiendishoc wrote: | | Quote: |
I'm not arguing against your point. You are entitled to your opinion. I just thought Dante Exum is a terrible example to use. Brandon Ingram's physical tools are even more impressive because it's not just relative to his position, it provides him with the ability to play 1-5 in any given game. Dante's physical tools doesn't provide him with that luxury.
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OK, how about Aaron Gordon? |
Much better. |
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fiendishoc
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| Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerSanity wrote: | I think DLO is currently more skilled than Ingram, but that Ingram has more natural talent. I think he has an equal or better feel for the game, a great basketball IQ and, most significantly, elite size/mobility that, for the respective positions, DLO can't compete with.
Ingram has already shown a learning curve better than both Dante Exum and Aaron Gordon. Ingram improved and grew more in one season than either Exum or Gordon have in three years. And, Ingram also has elite length/size for his position (along with the mobility to take advantage of it) that neither Gordon or Exum have. |
I think this is a better argument, but I don't agree that he's shown yet that he's superior in terms of basketball IQ. It's much easier to make the right play when you're playing a low usage off ball role. When he was on ball, he's decision making was OK, not anything outstanding.
(Exum has a 8'7 standing reach for a PG, but I don't think its worth arguing this point any further). |
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epak
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| Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Andre2K wrote: | | fiendishoc wrote: | | Quote: |
I'm not arguing against your point. You are entitled to your opinion. I just thought Dante Exum is a terrible example to use. Brandon Ingram's physical tools are even more impressive because it's not just relative to his position, it provides him with the ability to play 1-5 in any given game. Dante's physical tools doesn't provide him with that luxury.
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OK, how about Aaron Gordon? |
Much better. |
Just hearing his name makes me disgusted with the Magic for playing him at SF. |
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Andre2K
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| Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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| epak wrote: | | Andre2K wrote: | | fiendishoc wrote: | | Quote: |
I'm not arguing against your point. You are entitled to your opinion. I just thought Dante Exum is a terrible example to use. Brandon Ingram's physical tools are even more impressive because it's not just relative to his position, it provides him with the ability to play 1-5 in any given game. Dante's physical tools doesn't provide him with that luxury.
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OK, how about Aaron Gordon? |
Much better. |
Just hearing his name makes me disgusted with the Magic for playing him at SF. |
Them thinking Larry Nance is a sf target for them during the offseason says all you need to know about their talent evaluators over there |
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greenfrog
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| Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Andre2K wrote: | | epak wrote: | | Andre2K wrote: | | fiendishoc wrote: | | Quote: |
I'm not arguing against your point. You are entitled to your opinion. I just thought Dante Exum is a terrible example to use. Brandon Ingram's physical tools are even more impressive because it's not just relative to his position, it provides him with the ability to play 1-5 in any given game. Dante's physical tools doesn't provide him with that luxury.
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OK, how about Aaron Gordon? |
Much better. |
Just hearing his name makes me disgusted with the Magic for playing him at SF. |
Them thinking Larry Nance is a sf target for them during the offseason says all you need to know about their talent evaluators over there |
I think center was the other position they had him pegged at.
They also had Frank Kaminsky on that hybrid list so who knows. |
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Andre2K
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| Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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| greenfrog wrote: | | Andre2K wrote: | | epak wrote: | | Andre2K wrote: | | fiendishoc wrote: | | Quote: |
I'm not arguing against your point. You are entitled to your opinion. I just thought Dante Exum is a terrible example to use. Brandon Ingram's physical tools are even more impressive because it's not just relative to his position, it provides him with the ability to play 1-5 in any given game. Dante's physical tools doesn't provide him with that luxury.
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OK, how about Aaron Gordon? |
Much better. |
Just hearing his name makes me disgusted with the Magic for playing him at SF. |
Them thinking Larry Nance is a sf target for them during the offseason says all you need to know about their talent evaluators over there |
I think center was the other position they had him pegged at.
They also had Frank Kaminsky on that hybrid list so who knows. |
Is Frank Kaminssky really a hybrid tho, I haven't seen much of him but he seems slow footed to me, he should be used strictly as a stretch 5 in my opinion. But like you said who knows. |
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fiendishoc
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| Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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| It really comes down to the shot for all these guys. Shooting a high percentage from three raises the ceiling considerably. |
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clutchkobe
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| Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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| I also would not trade zubiac. he is not as talented as most but he reminds me alot of marc gasol........i would hate to see him go. Nance is also someone i would hold on to. You can see talent right away....... |
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nash
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| Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | silkwilkes wrote: | I see Ingram as more talented as DLO without looking at the rest of it so I think we're pretty far off on our assessments here. Both are very talented. I hope we're both right tbh  |
That's what's crazy. DAR is more talented. Ingram's work ethic just pays off far quicker. |
DAR is more developed and he is also older.
Too early to tell who is more talented. |
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nash
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| Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerSanity wrote: | I think DLO is currently more skilled than Ingram, but that Ingram has more natural talent. I think he has an equal or better feel for the game, a great basketball IQ and, most significantly, elite size/mobility that, for the respective positions, DLO can't compete with.
Ingram has already shown a learning curve better than both Dante Exum and Aaron Gordon. Ingram improved and grew more in one season than either Exum or Gordon have in three years. And, Ingram also has elite length/size for his position (along with the mobility to take advantage of it) that neither Gordon or Exum have. |
I agree.
One thing I like about Ingram is that his work ethic means we are going to see the best possible version of him on the floor.
Talented players don't need it, but if Shaq was the most dominant ever and I loved him, when I think about Shaq the first thing that comes into my mind is how he could be in the GOAT conversation with a better work ethic.
Nobody really knows if Ingram is going to be a stud, but I have no doubt he is going to be as good as he can. |
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tox
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| Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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| oldschool32 wrote: | | LakerSanity wrote: | | ^As he should, IMO, but that doesn't mean he should say that aloud. That quote is likely pretty discouraging to everyone else. Even if you want to put a fire under their butts, you do it privately and not through the media. |
That quote shouldn't be discouraging at all. To be honest, some of these guys have to realize that they aren't going to be stars(Randle/Clarkson etc). If the front office likes what they see from Ingram as far as mentality and work ethic, it gives the other guys a road map of what they need to do. I don't see it as a negative to the other guys. I'm guessing if Russell shows some consistency and is given more minutes next season, he'll join the club in which Magic wouldn't want to give him up unless it's for a no brainer. I'm hoping they keep both.
Eventually, they are going to need to establish a pecking order. Russell and Ingram seem to be the guys that should be doing the heavy lifting on offense(even though the ball will be moving around) |
I don't see how Randle has shown he won't be a star? He needs to work on his 3 pointers and defense primarily. Ingram needs to... work on his 3 pointers and defense primarily.
Ingram's got the advantage of being far younger, but Randle shouldn't have a role player mentality. Otherwise just trade him since Nance is better at that. |
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nash
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| Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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| clutchkobe wrote: | | I also would not trade zubiac. he is not as talented as most but he reminds me alot of marc gasol........i would hate to see him go. Nance is also someone i would hold on to. You can see talent right away....... |
My three favorite players.
When I think about Zubac, the kid used to stay asleep to watch our games. One has to be a huge fan to do that in his country. It may be a dream for a dia hard Lakers fan to wear our jersey so I just wish the best for the kid and he is going to have my support don't matter what. Fortunately he is a skilled offensive players with potential to anchor the defense.
Ingram, Nance and Zubac have high BBIQ, are willing to play the game the right way and aren't drama queens, how couldn't we love them? |
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nash
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| Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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| tox wrote: | | oldschool32 wrote: | | LakerSanity wrote: | | ^As he should, IMO, but that doesn't mean he should say that aloud. That quote is likely pretty discouraging to everyone else. Even if you want to put a fire under their butts, you do it privately and not through the media. |
That quote shouldn't be discouraging at all. To be honest, some of these guys have to realize that they aren't going to be stars(Randle/Clarkson etc). If the front office likes what they see from Ingram as far as mentality and work ethic, it gives the other guys a road map of what they need to do. I don't see it as a negative to the other guys. I'm guessing if Russell shows some consistency and is given more minutes next season, he'll join the club in which Magic wouldn't want to give him up unless it's for a no brainer. I'm hoping they keep both.
Eventually, they are going to need to establish a pecking order. Russell and Ingram seem to be the guys that should be doing the heavy lifting on offense(even though the ball will be moving around) |
I don't see how Randle has shown he won't be a star? He needs to work on his 3 pointers and defense primarily. Ingram needs to... work on his 3 pointers and defense primarily.
Ingram's got the advantage of being far younger, but Randle shouldn't have a role player mentality. Otherwise just trade him since Nance is better at that. |
Julius IQ is questionable and he is not really willing to play the high way and do the small things. It improved last season, but still concerns me. |
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tox
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| Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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| nash wrote: | | tox wrote: | | oldschool32 wrote: | | LakerSanity wrote: | | ^As he should, IMO, but that doesn't mean he should say that aloud. That quote is likely pretty discouraging to everyone else. Even if you want to put a fire under their butts, you do it privately and not through the media. |
That quote shouldn't be discouraging at all. To be honest, some of these guys have to realize that they aren't going to be stars(Randle/Clarkson etc). If the front office likes what they see from Ingram as far as mentality and work ethic, it gives the other guys a road map of what they need to do. I don't see it as a negative to the other guys. I'm guessing if Russell shows some consistency and is given more minutes next season, he'll join the club in which Magic wouldn't want to give him up unless it's for a no brainer. I'm hoping they keep both.
Eventually, they are going to need to establish a pecking order. Russell and Ingram seem to be the guys that should be doing the heavy lifting on offense(even though the ball will be moving around) |
I don't see how Randle has shown he won't be a star? He needs to work on his 3 pointers and defense primarily. Ingram needs to... work on his 3 pointers and defense primarily.
Ingram's got the advantage of being far younger, but Randle shouldn't have a role player mentality. Otherwise just trade him since Nance is better at that. |
Julius IQ is questionable and he is not really willing to play the high way and do the small things. It improved last season, but still concerns me. |
That is a far cry from saying he isn't going to be a star and should realize that. |
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SocalDevin
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| Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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| nash wrote: | | LakerSanity wrote: | I think DLO is currently more skilled than Ingram, but that Ingram has more natural talent. I think he has an equal or better feel for the game, a great basketball IQ and, most significantly, elite size/mobility that, for the respective positions, DLO can't compete with.
Ingram has already shown a learning curve better than both Dante Exum and Aaron Gordon. Ingram improved and grew more in one season than either Exum or Gordon have in three years. And, Ingram also has elite length/size for his position (along with the mobility to take advantage of it) that neither Gordon or Exum have. |
I agree.
One thing I like about Ingram is that his work ethic means we are going to see the best possible version of him on the floor.
Talented players don't need it, but if Shaq was the most dominant ever and I loved him, when I think about Shaq the first thing that comes into my mind is how he could be in the GOAT conversation with a better work ethic.
Nobody really knows if Ingram is going to be a stud, but I have no doubt he is going to be as good as he can. |
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LakerSanity
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| Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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| nash wrote: | | When I think about Zubac, the kid used to stay asleep to watch our games. |
Imagine what he might have learned had he stayed awake...
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Vin
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| Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 11:01 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerSanity wrote: | | nash wrote: | | When I think about Zubac, the kid used to stay asleep to watch our games. |
Imagine what he might have learned had he stayed awake... |
Yes but staying asleep to watch our games shows more dedication to be in tip top shape the next day. |
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Villain6Activated
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| Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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| zePokar wrote: | | LakerSanity wrote: | | nash wrote: | | When I think about Zubac, the kid used to stay asleep to watch our games. |
Imagine what he might have learned had he stayed awake... |
Yes but staying asleep to watch our games shows more dedication to be in tip top shape the next day. |
I'm more impressed that he has the court vision required watch games while sleeping. The sky is the limit for this kid.
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Vin
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 12:15 am Post subject: |
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| LilJay24 wrote: | | zePokar wrote: | | LakerSanity wrote: | | nash wrote: | | When I think about Zubac, the kid used to stay asleep to watch our games. |
Imagine what he might have learned had he stayed awake... |
Yes but staying asleep to watch our games shows more dedication to be in tip top shape the next day. |
I'm more impressed that he has the court vision required watch games while sleeping. The sky is the limit for this kid. |
The skyhook is the limit for Zu. |
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dao
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 1:10 am Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: |
As it pertains to Ingram, hopefully he's the best of both worlds, but I feel as though people's affinity for him as a person blinds them a bit to his flaws, and I wonder if/when there will be expectations placed on him in terms of tangible production. |
The honeymoon is over starting next year. But to be fair, he had "tangible production" toward the end of the season. He played pretty well post All Star break.
It's no coincidence that most talking heads are very high on Ingram. He's lighting up a lot of peoples eye test. Where there's smoke, there is often fire. He's going to be really, really good. I still expect 20 points per 36 from him next year. |
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babyskyhook
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 2:11 am Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | Silk...I totally get your point about brilliant but unreliable people. But if I have to choose between the person with talent who's a bit flaky & a nice, hard worker who just isn't very good...I'm going to choose the talented person, because in a competitive environment the former is the only one with the capability to help get you to the promised land.
As it pertains to Ingram, hopefully he's the best of both worlds, but I feel as though people's affinity for him as a person blinds them a bit to his flaws, and I wonder if/when there will be expectations placed on him in terms of tangible production. |
You're setting up a false dichotomy though, GT.
This isn't a choice between "the person with talent who's a bit flaky & a nice, hard worker who just isn't very good". All of the core guys are talented. Do they all have the same work ethic and attitude ? Doesn't sound like it. This seems like it's about work ethic and attitude (coachability).
Magic was sending a very clear message to DLo and JR , and maybe Clarkson also.
Based off of the things Magic said during his first media tour about DLo and JR, it seems like Magic feels strongly that they both need to put more time into working on their games. DLo has had issues with two coaching staffs and the rumors we have heard about those conflicts center on him not wanting to do certain things the coaches are asking him to do. JR, meanwhile is going into his 3rd full year in the NBA and still has trouble finishing with his off hand. The coaches can't be happy about that. And both DLO and JR have had issues with effort and focus at times.
My read on it is that Magic is giving the other guys a wake up call by saying BI (who is renowned for having the best work ethic on the team) is untouchable. "Work your ass off and be open to coaching like BI or risk getting traded" seems to be the message and I have no problem with it. They won 26 games last year and that was only after winning 5 of their last 6. No one on this team should take anything for granted. |
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babyskyhook
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 2:15 am Post subject: |
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| LakerSanity wrote: | I think DLO is currently more skilled than Ingram, but that Ingram has more natural talent. I think he has an equal or better feel for the game, a great basketball IQ and, most significantly, elite size/mobility that, for the respective positions, DLO can't compete with.
Ingram has already shown a learning curve better than both Dante Exum and Aaron Gordon. Ingram improved and grew more in one season than either Exum or Gordon have in three years. And, Ingram also has elite length/size for his position (along with the mobility to take advantage of it) that neither Gordon or Exum have. |
Agree with both your points here. |
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babyskyhook
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 2:35 am Post subject: |
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| fiendishoc wrote: | | Andre2K wrote: | | fiendishoc wrote: | | Andre2K wrote: | | fiendishoc wrote: | | Andre2K wrote: | | fiendishoc wrote: | | silkwilkes wrote: | | I see Ingram as more talented as DLO without looking at the rest of it so I think we're pretty far off on our assessments here. Both are very talented. I hope we're both right tbh |
I'm unconvinced of the arguments that I've heard in favor of BI being more talented in that you could plausibly apply them to Dante Exum as well. He needs to show more on the court before he gets into that discussion. If he comes back with a drastically improved shot next year, then I'll consider it. |
Not sure if Dante Exum is a good example to use. He is 21 yrs old, about to enter his 4th season, doesn't possess the same physical tools as Ingram and had a even worse rookie season. |
I'm talking rookie to rookie, and he has awesome physical tools for his position. And yes his rookie season can be considered worse, but that's part of it- where we seem to be throwing rookie year production (relative to historical comps) out the window to evaluate upside. |
So are you advocating using rookie year production to judge a player's upside? Because if you are then Tyreke Evans and Michael Carter Williams should be superstars by now |
You're the one who brought it up, not me. |
No you said you're talking rookie to rookie. I only pointed out the terrible comparison between both players. Exum is older and hasn't shown anything yet in his 3yrs in the league. |
I was talking about if you were looking at these guys after their rookie years, and projected their potential based on all the intangibles that people are talking about. Great physical tools for position, humble attitude, great work ethic, great first step, defensive potential, etc.. To me that's completely not convincing enough yet to make that determination that BI is going to have the most productive career among our players, given what he has shown on the court.
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I think those of us who feel BI has the highest upside on the team will point to the combination of BI's physical gifts, reported work ethic along with the consistent, gradual improvement he showed last year and the more rapid growth he showed over the last two months of the season as the reasons for thinking he is out best prospect.
And how are BI's physical tools and great first step intangibles ?
They seem vey tangible to me.
As far Exum goes, BI developed more and showed more promise in the two months after the AS break than Exum has shown in 3 years, let alone what Exum showed his rookie year. |
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fiendishoc
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 3:11 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | And how are BI's physical tools and great first step intangibles ?
They seem vey tangible to me. |
The entire comparison goes back to my line here, so I wasn't talking about only intangibles:
| Quote: | | I'm unconvinced of the arguments that I've heard in favor of BI being more talented in that you could plausibly apply them to Dante Exum as well. He needs to show more on the court before he gets into that discussion. If he comes back with a drastically improved shot next year, then I'll consider it. |
Regarding this:
| Quote: | | As far Exum goes, BI developed more and showed more promise in the two months after the AS break than Exum has shown in 3 years, let alone what Exum showed his rookie year. |
That's fair, and like I said, better than the other arguments. So it's a combination of two things 1) ceiling based on physical tools 2) work ethic translating into tangible midseason improvement reassuring people that he can hit that ceiling.
For me, I need to see tangible progress on that shot before I go that far in rating that ceiling (this is a guy who shot only 32% from the high school three point line before putting together a good percentage on the limited college sample). I believe it can be fixed, but there are many examples of players with great attitudes and work ethic that have been unable to improve their shot significantly. |
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