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fiendishoc
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 Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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| CRoost wrote: | | BynumForThree wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | Only Lakers fans could somehow get depressed about not getting Fultz despite the fact they're getting Ball. That's NOT just a consolation prize. |
Considering Fultz is on another tier as a prospect, that technically IS a consolation prize. |
Another tier should have an impact on leading his team to wins or at least a respectable record especially on college level . That's what great players did in college. There's no precedent of great player that came from an awful college team. |
Moses Malone, Charles Barkley, John Stockton, etc... |
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noahp45
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerLogic wrote: | | Outspoken wrote: | | BynumForThree wrote: | | Outspoken wrote: | | LakerLogic wrote: | | Really sucks that the Celtics are going to get him. |
Why is that? |
Because he's the best player in the draft. |
that's not a fact though, right? |
Best prospect in the draft. |
Dude is wack I don't see why the hype is there. He should have Atleast took his team to the Tournament. He's in the Pac 12 and only won two games
Last edited by noahp45 on Mon May 29, 2017 12:20 am; edited 1 time in total |
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fiendishoc
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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| ^ None of the prospects would have been able to take that team to the tournament. |
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Shaber
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| Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 5:15 am Post subject: |
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Between Fultz and Ball, who is the better defender?
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CRoost
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| Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 5:31 am Post subject: |
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| fiendishoc wrote: | | CRoost wrote: | | BynumForThree wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | Only Lakers fans could somehow get depressed about not getting Fultz despite the fact they're getting Ball. That's NOT just a consolation prize. |
Considering Fultz is on another tier as a prospect, that technically IS a consolation prize. |
Another tier should have an impact on leading his team to wins or at least a respectable record especially on college level . That's what great players did in college. There's no precedent of great player that came from an awful college team. |
Moses Malone, Charles Barkley, John Stockton, etc... |
Moses Malone was the first player who jumped from high school to pros. He never played college.
Barkley and Stockton left their college on winning record. Auburn was 20-11 and Gonzaga was 17-11. Their colleges have overall winning record when they were at school. |
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epak
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| Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 5:42 am Post subject: |
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| Not sure if this was mentioned, but Fultz was cut from his sophomore varsity team. We all know who else was cut from their high school in the past. |
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Andre2K
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| Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 5:47 am Post subject: |
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| epak wrote: | | Not sure if this was mentioned, but Fultz was cut from his sophomore varsity team. We all know who else was cut from their high school in the past. |
oh (bleep), Markelle Fultz is the next MJ, we need to trade up to get him ASAP!
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fiendishoc
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Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 8488
Location: The (real) short corner
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| Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 7:20 am Post subject: |
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| CRoost wrote: | | fiendishoc wrote: | | CRoost wrote: | | BynumForThree wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | Only Lakers fans could somehow get depressed about not getting Fultz despite the fact they're getting Ball. That's NOT just a consolation prize. |
Considering Fultz is on another tier as a prospect, that technically IS a consolation prize. |
Another tier should have an impact on leading his team to wins or at least a respectable record especially on college level . That's what great players did in college. There's no precedent of great player that came from an awful college team. |
Moses Malone, Charles Barkley, John Stockton, etc... |
Moses Malone was the first player who jumped from high school to pros. He never played college.
Barkley and Stockton left their college on winning record. Auburn was 20-11 and Gonzaga was 17-11. Their colleges have overall winning record when they were at school. |
Whoops, wrong Moses popped up on the search. I knew about the high school thing, should have registered.
By the careful nature of your answer on Barkley and Stockton, you already know that they had subpar seasons. Which disproves your point on Markelle. He just doesnt have the luxury of trying three times with potentially better teammates while improving himself. |
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fiendishoc
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| Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 7:30 am Post subject: |
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| epak wrote: | | Not sure if this was mentioned, but Fultz was cut from his sophomore varsity team. We all know who else was cut from their high school in the past. |
Besides MJ, lot of good players actually. CP3, Wade. People mature at different rates. |
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AY2043
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| Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 7:31 am Post subject: |
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| Andre2K wrote: | | epak wrote: | | Not sure if this was mentioned, but Fultz was cut from his sophomore varsity team. We all know who else was cut from their high school in the past. |
oh (bleep), Markelle Fultz is the next MJ, we need to trade up to get him ASAP! |
IIRC MJ was only cut his freshman year. If Fultz got cut his sophomore year, logic says Fultz>MJ confirmed! |
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CRoost
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| Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 7:38 am Post subject: |
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| fiendishoc wrote: | | CRoost wrote: | | fiendishoc wrote: | | CRoost wrote: | | BynumForThree wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | Only Lakers fans could somehow get depressed about not getting Fultz despite the fact they're getting Ball. That's NOT just a consolation prize. |
Considering Fultz is on another tier as a prospect, that technically IS a consolation prize. |
Another tier should have an impact on leading his team to wins or at least a respectable record especially on college level . That's what great players did in college. There's no precedent of great player that came from an awful college team. |
Moses Malone, Charles Barkley, John Stockton, etc... |
Moses Malone was the first player who jumped from high school to pros. He never played college.
Barkley and Stockton left their college on winning record. Auburn was 20-11 and Gonzaga was 17-11. Their colleges have overall winning record when they were at school. |
Whoops, wrong Moses popped up on the search. I knew about the high school thing, should have registered.
By the careful nature of your answer on Barkley and Stockton, you already know that they had subpar seasons. Which disproves your point on Markelle. He just doesnt have the luxury of trying three times with potentially better teammates while improving himself. |
Zags were 19-8 and Auburn was 14-14. 9-22 is bad no matter how you sliced it and Fultz was part of 25 of those games. Most of the losses were blowouts too. Empty stats. |
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nash
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| Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 8:18 am Post subject: |
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| Shaber wrote: | | Between Fultz and Ball, who is the better defender? |
Nobody really knows, but with his wingspan and lateral quickness Fultz has better tools. |
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fiendishoc
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| Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 8:33 am Post subject: |
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| CRoost wrote: | | fiendishoc wrote: | | CRoost wrote: | | fiendishoc wrote: | | CRoost wrote: | | BynumForThree wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | Only Lakers fans could somehow get depressed about not getting Fultz despite the fact they're getting Ball. That's NOT just a consolation prize. |
Considering Fultz is on another tier as a prospect, that technically IS a consolation prize. |
Another tier should have an impact on leading his team to wins or at least a respectable record especially on college level . That's what great players did in college. There's no precedent of great player that came from an awful college team. |
Moses Malone, Charles Barkley, John Stockton, etc... |
Moses Malone was the first player who jumped from high school to pros. He never played college.
Barkley and Stockton left their college on winning record. Auburn was 20-11 and Gonzaga was 17-11. Their colleges have overall winning record when they were at school. |
Whoops, wrong Moses popped up on the search. I knew about the high school thing, should have registered.
By the careful nature of your answer on Barkley and Stockton, you already know that they had subpar seasons. Which disproves your point on Markelle. He just doesnt have the luxury of trying three times with potentially better teammates while improving himself. |
Zags were 19-8 and Auburn was 14-14. 9-22 is bad no matter how you sliced it and Fultz was part of 25 of those games. Most of the losses were blowouts too. Empty stats. |
Zags were 13-14 in Stockton's Junior year, where he played every game was presumably better than his freshman and sophomore years. I don't think they played a single ranked opponent. That team can be considered 'awful'. Teammates matter.
I already addressed Washington's roster, pointed at how bad his rotation teammates were the year before he joined and made a case why Ball would not have done any better. But you choose to just keep repeating the same thing about the record.
Last edited by fiendishoc on Mon May 29, 2017 8:37 am; edited 1 time in total |
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BynumForThree
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| Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 8:37 am Post subject: |
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| Shaber wrote: | | Between Fultz and Ball, who is the better defender? |
Neither is good but Fultz projects to be the better defender at both guard spots. |
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fiendishoc
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| Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 8:38 am Post subject: |
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| BynumForThree wrote: | | Shaber wrote: | | Between Fultz and Ball, who is the better defender? |
Neither is good but Fultz projects to be the better defender at both guard spots. |
I think Ball was better in college, but I project Fultz to be better over his career based on his tools. |
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MJST
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| Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 8:42 am Post subject: |
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Ball is the better defender till Fultz proves otherwise.he also isn't another tier higher than Ball.
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fiendishoc
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| Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 8:47 am Post subject: |
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| MJST wrote: | | Ball is the better defender till Fultz proves otherwise.he also isn't another tier higher than Ball. |
What's the point of that? A projection is a projection. I'm sure some senior wing with T-rex arms is better defensively than either of them, but it's not going to hold true over time. |
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Andre2K
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| Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 8:49 am Post subject: |
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| AY2043 wrote: | | Andre2K wrote: | | epak wrote: | | Not sure if this was mentioned, but Fultz was cut from his sophomore varsity team. We all know who else was cut from their high school in the past. |
oh (bleep), Markelle Fultz is the next MJ, we need to trade up to get him ASAP! |
IIRC MJ was only cut his freshman year. If Fultz got cut his sophomore year, logic says Fultz>MJ confirmed! |
 holy snap, get Rob on the phone now!
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MJST
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| Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 9:10 am Post subject: |
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| fiendishoc wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | Ball is the better defender till Fultz proves otherwise.he also isn't another tier higher than Ball. |
What's the point of that? A projection is a projection. I'm sure some senior wing with T-rex arms is better defensively than either of them, but it's not going to hold true over time. |
Only cause you assume Fultz will "eventually" become a better defender because he has a physical profile that has potential.
However the reason he isn't a better defender than Ball now is because Ball gives effort on that end, and the only place Fultz gives effort is in chasedown blocks.
Yet despite his athletic gifts, and fact he had 1.2 blocks a game, Ball had 0.8, and despite people touting how amazing defensively he could be cause of his 1.6 steals a game, Ball had 1.8.
So this whole "Fultz is an entire tier above Ball" has nothing to do with anything Fultz showed at the college level beyond athletic potential and scoring. Ball tops him everywhere else and was barely behind in blocks per game.
Fultz has a 6'9 wingspan like Ball reportedly does as well, an Ball has shown to be pretty darn athletic too.
So this whole "on another tier" stuff has more to do with Fultz athletic potential they see and his profile, but Lonzo has the same profile and athletic potential. So what it comes down to is they saw Fultz score more, so they will roll with that.
That's why when it was asked who was the better defender, instead of admitting Lonzo is, the majority just went with Fultz because they expect/hope he will be given his tools, but they neglect the tools Lonzo has and how he's already shown he knows how and put the effort into using them.
So till Fultz proves otherwise, he isn't a better defender than Lonzo, nor is he on "another tier" above him.
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fiendishoc
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| Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 9:23 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Yet despite his athletic gifts, and fact he had 1.2 blocks a game, Ball had 0.8, and despite people touting how amazing defensively he could be cause of his 1.6 steals a game, Ball had 1.8. |
Washington played a crappy 2-3 zone most of the time. Not sure what you're going to get out of the stats for that. If you're going to evaluate purely on stats (which I am not) he did average 3.2 steals a game in the U18's when he didn't have to carry the entire offense by himself.
| Quote: | | So this whole "Fultz is an entire tier above Ball" |
Not sure where you're going with that whole tier thing. I never mentioned it in this discussion. But I do rate him a tier above 
| Quote: | | That's why when it was asked who was the better defender, instead of admitting Lonzo is, the majority just went with Fultz because they expect/hope he will be given his tools, but they neglect the tools Lonzo has and how he's already shown he knows how and put the effort into using them. |
By majority I hope you mean the zero people who said he was currently the better defender?
Saying he has better tools doesn't mean that they're neglecting Lonzo's tools. I presume they took Lonzo's tools into account when they said Fultz's tools were better.
Let's face it. They both looked pretty crappy as defenders. The projection is what matters not what they are now. We have a difference of opinions on it which is fine. |
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CRoost
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| Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 9:30 am Post subject: |
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| fiendishoc wrote: | | CRoost wrote: | | fiendishoc wrote: | | CRoost wrote: | | fiendishoc wrote: | | CRoost wrote: | | BynumForThree wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | Only Lakers fans could somehow get depressed about not getting Fultz despite the fact they're getting Ball. That's NOT just a consolation prize. |
Considering Fultz is on another tier as a prospect, that technically IS a consolation prize. |
Another tier should have an impact on leading his team to wins or at least a respectable record especially on college level . That's what great players did in college. There's no precedent of great player that came from an awful college team. |
Moses Malone, Charles Barkley, John Stockton, etc... |
Moses Malone was the first player who jumped from high school to pros. He never played college.
Barkley and Stockton left their college on winning record. Auburn was 20-11 and Gonzaga was 17-11. Their colleges have overall winning record when they were at school. |
Whoops, wrong Moses popped up on the search. I knew about the high school thing, should have registered.
By the careful nature of your answer on Barkley and Stockton, you already know that they had subpar seasons. Which disproves your point on Markelle. He just doesnt have the luxury of trying three times with potentially better teammates while improving himself. |
Zags were 19-8 and Auburn was 14-14. 9-22 is bad no matter how you sliced it and Fultz was part of 25 of those games. Most of the losses were blowouts too. Empty stats. |
Zags were 13-14 in Stockton's Junior year, where he played every game was presumably better than his freshman and sophomore years. I don't think they played a single ranked opponent. That team can be considered 'awful'. Teammates matter.
I already addressed Washington's roster, pointed at how bad his rotation teammates were the year before he joined and made a case why Ball would not have done any better. But you choose to just keep repeating the same thing about the record. |
Zags were 17-11 when Stockton put his impressive numbers in his senior year. Peopke mature in different rate.
Using teammates as an excuse is not mark of a great player. He's is playing with Div 1 scholarship players. Great player usually lead their teams to win especially at college level. The fact that Fultz could not even lead his team to respectable record is huge red flag to me. |
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fiendishoc
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| Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 9:33 am Post subject: |
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^ And Markelle was fully formed even though he's the same age as guys in next year's draft class? How does that even make sense? So if he transfers to Missouri instead of declaring, puts up even more impressive numbers and makes the tourney, all is OK in your eyes?
You said that there were no great players who came from bad teams in college. Well, there were. |
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MJST
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| Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 9:40 am Post subject: |
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| fiendishoc wrote: | ^ And Markelle was fully formed even though he's the same age as guys in next year's draft class? How does that even make sense? So if he transfers to Missouri instead of declaring, puts up even more impressive numbers and makes the tourney, all is OK in your eyes?
You said that there were no great players who came from bad teams in college. Well, there were. |
Got a question, did Fultz lead his high school team to the national championship?
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fiendishoc
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| Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 9:41 am Post subject: |
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| MJST wrote: | | fiendishoc wrote: | ^ And Markelle was fully formed even though he's the same age as guys in next year's draft class? How does that even make sense? So if he transfers to Missouri instead of declaring, puts up even more impressive numbers and makes the tourney, all is OK in your eyes?
You said that there were no great players who came from bad teams in college. Well, there were. |
Got a question, did Fultz lead his high school team to the national championship? |
Nope. |
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CRoost
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| Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 9:42 am Post subject: |
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| fiendishoc wrote: | ^ And Markelle was fully formed even though he's the same age as guys in next year's draft class? How does that even make sense? So if he transfers to Missouri instead of declaring, puts up even more impressive numbers and makes the tourney, all is OK in your eyes?
You said that there were no great players who came from bad teams in college. Well, there were. |
Like who, Stockton?. Or Moses Malone? You said it yourself, people mature in different rate. Stockton did on his senior year. Fultz already did it in his freshman year.
If UDub was 13-12 in the 25 games he played and a lot of close games, then I would given him the benefit of the doubt. We are talking about a consensus number 1 overall pick here and seen by many as a potential franchise player. If he can't have an impact on college level, how can have an impact in the NBA.
Last edited by CRoost on Mon May 29, 2017 9:43 am; edited 1 time in total |
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