I am confident Lonzo will be the pick because we need a court general and 3 point shooting.
As of now, we only have DLo who is better off playing the 2 and Ennis.
I do think that Lonzo will be the pick.
I'm just worried that he has a large range of potential outcomes, downside included.
That can be said about any prospect.
I don't know if Ball is going to be the best player to select at #2 but at least I'm sure he is someone I actually enjoy watching.
We didn't win anything in the 90's bur that team was funny to watch something I can't really say about our current core. Julius and JC lack of IQ make me nervous, so does Dlo's careless turnovers and lack of aggression.
Joined: 25 Apr 2015 Posts: 31783 Location: Anaheim, CA
Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 3:45 am Post subject:
nash wrote:
ChickenStu wrote:
Hero Ball wrote:
I am confident Lonzo will be the pick because we need a court general and 3 point shooting.
As of now, we only have DLo who is better off playing the 2 and Ennis.
I do think that Lonzo will be the pick.
I'm just worried that he has a large range of potential outcomes, downside included.
That can be said about any prospect.
I don't know if Ball is going to be the best player to select at #2 but at least I'm sure he is someone I actually enjoy watching.
We didn't win anything in the 90's bur that team was funny to watch something I can't really say about our current core. Julius and JC lack of IQ make me nervous, so does Dlo's careless turnovers and lack of aggression.
I'll be more direct: I think that Lonzo's range of outcomes is more wide than the prospects being talked about (in his range) in this draft. He's just such an odd player. Will a low usage rate player be able to affect the game in the NBA similar to how he did in college? Will that funky shot (which I acknowledge flies through the air with a nice rotation) translate to the NBA, or will defenders get up on him on his left shoulder and force him to go right and by them?
I think he has both a lower floor and a lower ceiling that Jackson. Obviously, this is just opinion, and it's not fact. There's certainly a scenario where I could see Jackson not being a perimeter threat in the NBA and that would make him just a nice activity/role player, and a scenario where I could see Lonzo's form not being a hindrance to being a solid 3-point shooter and great passer.
One more thing I'll add is that I think Bolden is a lottery talent, the more I watch tape on him. Had he put up the stats he did from last season in Europe, but for UCLA in a second theoretical season there instead of in Europe, I think the kid is being talked about as a lottery pick. As long as you interview the guy and don't come away alarmed as to why he just didn't do that well at UCLA, to me, what he showed on tape last season should far supercede what transpired at UCLA. I already stated my belief that a lot of things can happen to young men at such a young age, from one year to the next. And there is absolutely no disputing the fact that the competition in the ABA is far better than what the Pac-12 has to offer.
I'm not even guaranteeing that Bolden ends up a really good NBA player. But what I am saying is that there's more of a chance that he does than the vast majority of players that are being mocked ahead of him. And he certainly has far more upside than virtually all of those guys. I mean, Ivan Rabb or Bolden...are you kidding me?
How would you rank Towns, Simmons and Fultz all coming out of college?
I think towns didn't get much hype until way later into the process. Most mocks I seen back then had okafor going number 1 until around late may and early June, but the talent was undeniable.
Simmons was always hyped and he'd been projected as the number 1 pick since he was in high school.
Fultz has been the consensus number 1 in this class for a while now, but I personally don't think he's the top prospect in this class, id rank him about even with dangelo Russell as an incoming prospect.
Overall coming out I'd say Simmons then towns then fultz.
Watching Lonzo, Simmons, Embiid and our next year's pick run laps around the league would give me nightmares, I think I'd sleep better at night watching them trying to sort out their potential spacing issues with Jackson or Fox. The front office shouldn't overthink this, draft Lonzo.
NBA defenders will shutdown Lonzo's game because they'll stay in his hip pocket forcing him to play to his greatest weakness... dribble penetration. _________________ A three headed monster... Jeannie, Pelinka, and Ham... another terrible season.
We never really see Lonzo play PnR, change directions on the first defender, get to a specific spot, then, change direction on the help defender and burn the guy to the cup.
Instead, he settles to allow their defensive switch, and then settles again with a 30' step back J.
This is reason #1 on why the Lakers shouldn't waste a #2 overall pick on Lonzo Ball. _________________ A three headed monster... Jeannie, Pelinka, and Ham... another terrible season.
We never really see Lonzo play PnR, change directions on the first defender, get to a specific spot, then, change direction on the help defender and burn the guy to the cup.
Instead, he settles to allow their defensive switch, and then settles again with a 30' step back J.
This is reason #1 on why the Lakers shouldn't waste a #2 overall pick on Lonzo Ball.
Is settling for a high percentage 3 such a bad thing?
Last edited by epak on Mon May 29, 2017 5:43 am; edited 1 time in total
We never really see Lonzo play PnR, change directions on the first defender, get to a specific spot, then, change direction on the help defender and burn the guy to the cup.
Instead, he settles to allow their defensive switch, and then settles again with a 30' step back J.
This is reason #1 on why the Lakers shouldn't waste a #2 overall pick on Lonzo Ball.
Klay, Monk, G.Harris, D. Green, Derozen, Bazemore, Bradley, J. Richardson, Shump, Reddick, Cj Miles, Hield, Wes Mathews, KCP, Belleneli, Lavine at same age(not close)
None of these guys are great playmakers. They too, have rudimentary ball-handling when attacking the hoop. Most of these guys are 3 and D.
Nick Young, Dipo(at same age), Beverly, Solomon Hill, Fournier(debatable maybe now, but at same age), Beal(at same age), Luwawu/Stauskas
That's 23 starting or projected starting SGs. So by definition/numbers he has an above (or way abv) average handle for a SG his age
There are different interpretations of what a classifies a handle in a position
Honestly, the same part of a handle that you laud for Nick Young - you condemn Lonzo for. Young has also been mostly a step back ball handling move, into a jump shot, type ball handler (especially after what, year 2 in his career), and Nick wasn't even doing that as a Freshman in college.
Despite Lonzo not often pulling out a variety of moves - there were a handful of times that he did... And none of the listed guys above, did that once at the same age. Even Lonzo's main crossover is still an above avg move for a freshman SG. He just didn't drive a lot, but I don't think he drove a below average amount for a freshman SG - and factor in Lonzo collapsing the defense driving in transition.
What I keep wondering or worrying about is having a back court of Lonzo and Russell and neither one be even close to elite at being able to break down a defender and attack the rim. How many truly effective offenses lack at least one attacking guard quality shooter or not?
2 average athletes at the 1 and the 2 doesn't seem like a winning formula on the defensive side either. Outside of Clarkson this team sorely lacks players with explosiveness _________________ "It was tough," Kobe Bryant said. "But when it got really tough for me, I just checked myself in."
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 40345 Location: Dirty South
Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 5:20 am Post subject:
AC Green's V-Card wrote:
adkindo wrote:
AC Green's V-Card wrote:
adkindo wrote:
dcarter4kobe wrote:
adkindo wrote:
dcarter4kobe wrote:
LongTimeLurk wrote:
dcarter4kobe wrote:
Cant get over the fact that both options for the 2nd draft pick will struggle mightily creating their own offense (Jackson and Ball).
If DSJ checks out in interviews, he has some serious attitude questions he needs to address, I would be in favor of a 2 for 5+10 trade with the Kings. Would then look to move 10 for a pick in the 14-17 range if we can get a 2018 1st.
Something like
DSJ (or Monk, Fox)
J.Patton, D.Mitchell, Kennard,Anunoby, Ike
2018 1st
for
Lonzo Ball
I have been a Jackson lean over Ball from the jump but you cant ignore Jackson's lack of consistent j, questions of how he will score in the NBA, discipline on defense, age, frame. Both Ball and Jackson are seriously flawed players who both do a lot of great things to help their team win.
will never understand this....it is math...we know he shot 37% from 3 over the season, and well over 40% once he altered his release...that is as consistent as any player in the draft.
Look at his FT shooting. Shooting off the dribble.
fine, but his jumpshot is as consistent as the %'s say it is....I get people that want to doubt that will translate to the NBA line, but that is just speculation. I do not or never have bought into the FT line as a predictor theory.....and if anyone does buy that theory, they have to also question Fultz and Balls ability to shoot the 3 in the NBA.
The formula isn't just FT%, though it plays a large role (and ~10% difference is nothing to sneeze at). It also heavily relies on three-point attempts. Jackson shot 3.3 3PT attempts Per40. Fultz/Ball shot 5.7/6.1 respectively. That is nearly twice the amount. Do you still not fundamentally understand why the models project them as better shooters? If you disagree, that's fine. But at least know what the models are based on.
we were not discussing a model, we were simply speaking about the correlation between free throw % indicating long term 3 point %....if you ( or dcarter) are speaking about a specific metric or model, I was not....but thanks for chiming in as always desperate to show everyone how much smarter you are than others.
No need for the personal pot shot, adkindo. You're better than that.
Watching Lonzo, Simmons, Embiid and our next year's pick run laps around the league would give me nightmares, I think I'd sleep better at night watching them trying to sort out their potential spacing issues with Jackson or Fox. The front office shouldn't overthink this, draft Lonzo.
Klay, Monk, G.Harris, D. Green, Derozen, Bazemore, Bradley, J. Richardson, Shump, Reddick, Cj Miles, Hield, Wes Mathews, KCP, Belleneli, Lavine at same age(not close)
None of these guys are great playmakers. They too, have rudimentary ball-handling when attacking the hoop. Most of these guys are 3 and D.
Nick Young, Dipo(at same age), Beverly, Solomon Hill, Fournier(debatable maybe now, but at same age), Beal(at same age), Luwawu/Stauskas
That's 23 starting or projected starting SGs. So by definition/numbers he has an above (or way abv) average handle for a SG his age
There are different interpretations of what a classifies a handle in a position
Honestly, the same part of a handle that you laud for Nick Young - you condemn Lonzo for. Young has also been mostly a step back ball handling move, into a jump shot, type ball handler (especially after what, year 2 in his career), and Nick wasn't even doing that as a Freshman in college.
Despite Lonzo not often pulling out a variety of moves - there were a handful of times that he did... And none of the listed guys above, did that once at the same age. Even Lonzo's main crossover is still an above avg move for a freshman SG. He just didn't drive a lot, but I don't think he drove a below average amount for a freshman SG - and factor in Lonzo collapsing the defense driving in transition.
What I keep wondering or worrying about is having a back court of Lonzo and Russell and neither one be even close to elite at being able to break down a defender and attack the rim. How many truly effective offenses lack at least one attacking guard quality shooter or not?
2 average athletes at the 1 and the 2 doesn't seem like a winning formula on the defensive side either. Outside of Clarkson this team sorely lacks players with explosiveness
I wouldn't call Lonzo an average athlete , I'd say solid. He has a chance to be a good 2 position defender down the line, and a better chance to be at least a solid SG defender - no reason why he can't be, JJ reddick was a solid defender for most of his Clippers stint
But yea it'd still be good to have players who can impose their will defensively - Ingram has to grow into his body to hopefully do that for us - and guard the other teams best wing who's 6'5 and taller.
DLo and Lonzo have a chance to be 100x better than Portlands backcourt defensively
Watching Lonzo, Simmons, Embiid and our next year's pick run laps around the league would give me nightmares, I think I'd sleep better at night watching them trying to sort out their potential spacing issues with Jackson or Fox. The front office shouldn't overthink this, draft Lonzo.
Watching Lonzo, Simmons, Embiid and our next year's pick run laps around the league would give me nightmares, I think I'd sleep better at night watching them trying to sort out their potential spacing issues with Jackson or Fox. The front office shouldn't overthink this, draft Lonzo.
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 40345 Location: Dirty South
Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 6:26 am Post subject:
Hero Ball wrote:
Andre2K wrote:
M2K wrote:
Andre2K wrote:
Watching Lonzo, Simmons, Embiid and our next year's pick run laps around the league would give me nightmares, I think I'd sleep better at night watching them trying to sort out their potential spacing issues with Jackson or Fox. The front office shouldn't overthink this, draft Lonzo.
Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 40345 Location: Dirty South
Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 6:27 am Post subject:
CRoost wrote:
M2K wrote:
Andre2K wrote:
Watching Lonzo, Simmons, Embiid and our next year's pick run laps around the league would give me nightmares, I think I'd sleep better at night watching them trying to sort out their potential spacing issues with Jackson or Fox. The front office shouldn't overthink this, draft Lonzo.
Watching Lonzo, Simmons, Embiid and our next year's pick run laps around the league would give me nightmares, I think I'd sleep better at night watching them trying to sort out their potential spacing issues with Jackson or Fox. The front office shouldn't overthink this, draft Lonzo.
Any takes on D.J. Wilson as a possible candidate at #28? Mike? Jorker?
I see a lot posters wanting a stretch 4. I know he lacks physicality, but he's got good range, seems to move well enough on the perimeter to close out on shooters and he's got the wingspan 7-3 to bother shots in the paint. His rebound rate is terrible, but we've already got big guys who can do that. Assuming we take Ball at #2. do you think he can fit well with our team?
I'm still on the Bell bandwagon but I was intrigued by Wilson's game, just wanted to hear some thoughts on him as a player.
I am confident Lonzo will be the pick because we need a court general and 3 point shooting.
As of now, we only have DLo who is better off playing the 2 and Ennis.
I do think that Lonzo will be the pick.
I'm just worried that he has a large range of potential outcomes, downside included.
That can be said about any prospect.
I don't know if Ball is going to be the best player to select at #2 but at least I'm sure he is someone I actually enjoy watching.
We didn't win anything in the 90's bur that team was funny to watch something I can't really say about our current core. Julius and JC lack of IQ make me nervous, so does Dlo's careless turnovers and lack of aggression.
I'll be more direct: I think that Lonzo's range of outcomes is more wide than the prospects being talked about (in his range) in this draft. He's just such an odd player. Will a low usage rate player be able to affect the game in the NBA similar to how he did in college? Will that funky shot (which I acknowledge flies through the air with a nice rotation) translate to the NBA, or will defenders get up on him on his left shoulder and force him to go right and by them?
I think he has both a lower floor and a lower ceiling that Jackson. Obviously, this is just opinion, and it's not fact. There's certainly a scenario where I could see Jackson not being a perimeter threat in the NBA and that would make him just a nice activity/role player, and a scenario where I could see Lonzo's form not being a hindrance to being a solid 3-point shooter and great passer.
One more thing I'll add is that I think Bolden is a lottery talent, the more I watch tape on him. Had he put up the stats he did from last season in Europe, but for UCLA in a second theoretical season there instead of in Europe, I think the kid is being talked about as a lottery pick. As long as you interview the guy and don't come away alarmed as to why he just didn't do that well at UCLA, to me, what he showed on tape last season should far supercede what transpired at UCLA. I already stated my belief that a lot of things can happen to young men at such a young age, from one year to the next. And there is absolutely no disputing the fact that the competition in the ABA is far better than what the Pac-12 has to offer.
I'm not even guaranteeing that Bolden ends up a really good NBA player. But what I am saying is that there's more of a chance that he does than the vast majority of players that are being mocked ahead of him. And he certainly has far more upside than virtually all of those guys. I mean, Ivan Rabb or Bolden...are you kidding me?
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