View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
tox Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Nov 2015 Posts: 17876
|
Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
tox wrote: | GoldenThroat wrote: | tox wrote: | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | So here's a list of 18-20 year old rookies who played as many minutes as Ingram who posted a BPM of -3 or worse:
Link
Marvin Williams and JR Smith went on to become productive role-players, while young scoring guards like Lavine and Booker have shown promise (though neither are positive BPM players yet in year two and three, respectively). Of course, Okafor and Mudiay are there as well.
It's only one data point, but BI has a pretty deep hole to dig himself out of to become a productive starter let alone a star after his very rocky first season. Will he be an outlier? Dirk posted a -2.9 BPM on 49% TS% as a 20 year old rookie and went on to become an all-time great. Hopefully BI will have a similar jump between years one and two that Dirk had, and then continue to get better from there. |
Dirk strikes me as the best case scenario for Ingram. I think his -4 BPM or whatever is misleading. It was basically a redshirt season since he was so young and so thin. That's why I've always stressed the only concern you should have about Ingram (IMO) is his shooting because that's not just a matter of youth. |
No concern over the low STL% & BLK%, especially considering his length? |
Actually you're right. That is a point of concern. I don't think he has great shotblocking instincts or anticipation getting steals. I don't even think his on ball defense is good either. Guys like Giannis and Durant had far better numbers as a rookie (and Durant wasn't even much of a defender), and Durant also far outpaced Ingram in college (per 40 min anyways).
But to be fair, Durant and Giannis also improved, especially in terms of block %. I still have hope Ingram can be a secondary rim protection guy as he develops athletically. But I don't think he'll ever be a good steals guy, and frankly I feel like current KD is probably Ingram's peak defense, which is kind of depressing. |
GT, can I throw this question back at you? How concerned are you about his low steals/ blocks numbers? And how do you feel about his overall defensive potential? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
nash Star Player
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 Posts: 8194
|
Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
tox wrote: |
GT, can I throw this question back at you? How concerned are you about his low steals/ blocks numbers? And how do you feel about his overall defensive potential? |
Tox let me ask you something too, what characteristics to you think are a must for a player become a good defender? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
tox Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Nov 2015 Posts: 17876
|
Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
nash wrote: | tox wrote: |
GT, can I throw this question back at you? How concerned are you about his low steals/ blocks numbers? And how do you feel about his overall defensive potential? |
Tox let me ask you something too, what characteristics to you think are a must for a player become a good defender? |
Off ball or on ball?
On ball? Quick feet, motor, good instincts, quick hands, strength, low center of mass. Navigating screens.
Off ball? Good instincts, good tools (standing reach/ wingspan/ vertical/ speed), defensive awareness.
I'm open to other people's opinions. I've never really thought about it, actually. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
nash Star Player
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 Posts: 8194
|
Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
tox wrote: | nash wrote: | tox wrote: |
GT, can I throw this question back at you? How concerned are you about his low steals/ blocks numbers? And how do you feel about his overall defensive potential? |
Tox let me ask you something too, what characteristics to you think are a must for a player become a good defender? |
Off ball or on ball?
On ball? Quick feet, motor, good instincts, quick hands, strength, low center of mass. Navigating screens.
Off ball? Good instincts, good tools (standing reach/ wingspan/ vertical/ speed), defensive awareness.
I'm open to other people's opinions. I've never really thought about it, actually. |
Good, I believe we have similar opinion about that.
Can we agree that Ingram checks most boxes so potential is there?
I mean, the strength can be acquired and the center of mass can be manipulated if you adapt your stance. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
tox Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Nov 2015 Posts: 17876
|
Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
nash wrote: | tox wrote: | nash wrote: | tox wrote: |
GT, can I throw this question back at you? How concerned are you about his low steals/ blocks numbers? And how do you feel about his overall defensive potential? |
Tox let me ask you something too, what characteristics to you think are a must for a player become a good defender? |
Off ball or on ball?
On ball? Quick feet, motor, good instincts, quick hands, strength, low center of mass. Navigating screens.
Off ball? Good instincts, good tools (standing reach/ wingspan/ vertical/ speed), defensive awareness.
I'm open to other people's opinions. I've never really thought about it, actually. |
Good, I believe we have similar opinion about that.
Can we agree that Ingram checks most boxes so potential is there?
I mean, the strength can be acquired and the center of mass can be manipulated if you adapt your stance. |
I don't really think so. I don't think his on ball skills are there. Quick feet/ lateral quickness? No. Motor? No. Good hands? No. Strength/ low center of mass? No. Stuff like awareness and navigating screens I have zero concern with.
As far as off ball goes, I'm less concerned. He has tools. What concerns me is what GT brought up: very low steals/ blocks rate. I think Ingram will end up at 3-3.5% BLK% guy but I was hoping for something closer to a Giannis impact. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
nash Star Player
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 Posts: 8194
|
Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
tox wrote: | nash wrote: | tox wrote: | nash wrote: | tox wrote: |
GT, can I throw this question back at you? How concerned are you about his low steals/ blocks numbers? And how do you feel about his overall defensive potential? |
Tox let me ask you something too, what characteristics to you think are a must for a player become a good defender? |
Off ball or on ball?
On ball? Quick feet, motor, good instincts, quick hands, strength, low center of mass. Navigating screens.
Off ball? Good instincts, good tools (standing reach/ wingspan/ vertical/ speed), defensive awareness.
I'm open to other people's opinions. I've never really thought about it, actually. |
Good, I believe we have similar opinion about that.
Can we agree that Ingram checks most boxes so potential is there?
I mean, the strength can be acquired and the center of mass can be manipulated if you adapt your stance. |
I don't really think so. I don't think his on ball skills are there. Quick feet/ lateral quickness? No. Motor? No. Good hands? No. Strength/ low center of mass? No. Stuff like awareness and navigating screens I have zero concern with.
As far as off ball goes, I'm less concerned. He has tools. What concerns me is what GT brought up: very low steals/ blocks rate. I think Ingram will end up at 3-3.5% BLK% guy but I was hoping for something closer to a Giannis impact. |
When I tell he has to improve his footwork a lot I'm not talking just about offense, but a good portion of his defensive ineffectiveness are linked to a poor footwork too. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Villain6Activated Star Player
Joined: 22 Dec 2011 Posts: 6697
|
Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 2:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Magic Johnson brought up Lonzo making teammates better and didn't bring up Ingram even once. He brought up Randle, Nance, Zu etc.
I would have thought the untouchable guy would atleast be brought up once in terms of how he fits with Lonzo.
Found that kind of odd _________________ “Life is too short. You have to keep it moving.” - Kobe |
|
Back to top |
|
|
VicXLakers Franchise Player
Joined: 08 Feb 2006 Posts: 11823
|
Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 2:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
LilJay24 wrote: | Magic Johnson brought up Lonzo making teammates better and didn't bring up Ingram even once. He brought up Randle, Nance, Zu etc.
I would have thought the untouchable guy would atleast be brought up once in terms of how he fits with Lonzo.
Found that kind of odd |
time to sit back and enjoy some basketball...can't analyze every grain of sand imo |
|
Back to top |
|
|
tox Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Nov 2015 Posts: 17876
|
Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 2:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
LilJay24 wrote: | Magic Johnson brought up Lonzo making teammates better and didn't bring up Ingram even once. He brought up Randle, Nance, Zu etc.
I would have thought the untouchable guy would atleast be brought up once in terms of how he fits with Lonzo.
Found that kind of odd |
Obviously BI doesn't need anyone to make him better
In retrospect I wonder if calling BI untouchable was Magic's "clever" way of signifying Russell is available, so that he could gauge market value without seeming like he was desperate to trade him? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
SocalDevin Star Player
Joined: 26 May 2016 Posts: 7825 Location: Long Beach
|
Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 2:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
tox wrote: | LilJay24 wrote: | Magic Johnson brought up Lonzo making teammates better and didn't bring up Ingram even once. He brought up Randle, Nance, Zu etc.
I would have thought the untouchable guy would atleast be brought up once in terms of how he fits with Lonzo.
Found that kind of odd |
Obviously BI doesn't need anyone to make him better
In retrospect I wonder if calling BI untouchable was Magic's "clever" way of signifying Russell is available, so that he could gauge market value without seeming like he was desperate to trade him? |
Great points.. He isn't dependent on anyone generating offense for him to be effective.
Also, I think we would both agree that Anrdrei Kirilenko was a very good on and off ball defender. He didn't have exceptional lateral quickness.
For this reason I believe we might be making a bit too much of Ingram's defensive shortcomings in his first season. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
repandpresent Starting Rotation
Joined: 20 Jul 2010 Posts: 552
|
Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 2:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Makes me wonder if his number was 11 instead of 14. It would be perfect for branding.
BXI |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Baron Von Humongous Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jul 2015 Posts: 32979
|
Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
SocalDevin wrote: | tox wrote: | LilJay24 wrote: | Magic Johnson brought up Lonzo making teammates better and didn't bring up Ingram even once. He brought up Randle, Nance, Zu etc.
I would have thought the untouchable guy would atleast be brought up once in terms of how he fits with Lonzo.
Found that kind of odd |
Obviously BI doesn't need anyone to make him better
In retrospect I wonder if calling BI untouchable was Magic's "clever" way of signifying Russell is available, so that he could gauge market value without seeming like he was desperate to trade him? |
Great points.. He isn't dependent on anyone generating offense for him to be effective.
Also, I think we would both agree that Anrdrei Kirilenko was a very good on and off ball defender. He didn't have exceptional lateral quickness.
For this reason I believe we might be making a bit too much of Ingram's defensive shortcomings in his first season. |
You wanna bet that Ingram averages 2 steals, 2.5 blocks, and posts a 3 DBPM next season? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
epak Retired Number
Joined: 30 Aug 2005 Posts: 34147
|
Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Does he pronounce it like the school? Or like McDaniels? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
SocalDevin Star Player
Joined: 26 May 2016 Posts: 7825 Location: Long Beach
|
Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
GoldenThroat wrote: | SocalDevin wrote: | tox wrote: | LilJay24 wrote: | Magic Johnson brought up Lonzo making teammates better and didn't bring up Ingram even once. He brought up Randle, Nance, Zu etc.
I would have thought the untouchable guy would atleast be brought up once in terms of how he fits with Lonzo.
Found that kind of odd |
Obviously BI doesn't need anyone to make him better
In retrospect I wonder if calling BI untouchable was Magic's "clever" way of signifying Russell is available, so that he could gauge market value without seeming like he was desperate to trade him? |
Great points.. He isn't dependent on anyone generating offense for him to be effective.
Also, I think we would both agree that Anrdrei Kirilenko was a very good on and off ball defender. He didn't have exceptional lateral quickness.
For this reason I believe we might be making a bit too much of Ingram's defensive shortcomings in his first season. |
How would we know what he needs to be effective when he hasn't been effective yet? |
I don't understand the question. I was addressing Tox's concerns with Ingram's lateral quickness. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
JeezyXVII Star Player
Joined: 07 Jul 2014 Posts: 1835
|
Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:33 pm Post subject: |
|
|
LilJay24 wrote: | Magic Johnson brought up Lonzo making teammates better and didn't bring up Ingram even once. He brought up Randle, Nance, Zu etc.
I would have thought the untouchable guy would atleast be brought up once in terms of how he fits with Lonzo.
Found that kind of odd |
He mention Zu and Nance cause they were in the back at the press conf for Lonzo.. and probably thought of the other big guy Rendle.
He didnt mention BI, Lopez, Deng, JC, Brewer, Nwaba.. guess their all getting traded
Last edited by JeezyXVII on Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:35 pm; edited 2 times in total |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Halflife Franchise Player
Joined: 15 Aug 2015 Posts: 16703
|
Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:33 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Can't wait to see these 2 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
SocalDevin Star Player
Joined: 26 May 2016 Posts: 7825 Location: Long Beach
|
Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:33 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Baron Von Humongous wrote: | SocalDevin wrote: | tox wrote: | LilJay24 wrote: | Magic Johnson brought up Lonzo making teammates better and didn't bring up Ingram even once. He brought up Randle, Nance, Zu etc.
I would have thought the untouchable guy would atleast be brought up once in terms of how he fits with Lonzo.
Found that kind of odd |
Obviously BI doesn't need anyone to make him better
In retrospect I wonder if calling BI untouchable was Magic's "clever" way of signifying Russell is available, so that he could gauge market value without seeming like he was desperate to trade him? |
Great points.. He isn't dependent on anyone generating offense for him to be effective.
Also, I think we would both agree that Anrdrei Kirilenko was a very good on and off ball defender. He didn't have exceptional lateral quickness.
For this reason I believe we might be making a bit too much of Ingram's defensive shortcomings in his first season. |
You wanna bet that Ingram averages 2 steals, 2.5 blocks, and posts a 3 DBPM next season? |
Nope.. lol. He has all the tools to be an above average defender, I cant say that he will be though. I would also add that it's too early to say that it will always be an issue. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
dao Star Player
Joined: 02 Jan 2013 Posts: 5572
|
Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
tox wrote: | nash wrote: | tox wrote: |
GT, can I throw this question back at you? How concerned are you about his low steals/ blocks numbers? And how do you feel about his overall defensive potential? |
Tox let me ask you something too, what characteristics to you think are a must for a player become a good defender? |
Off ball or on ball?
On ball? Quick feet, motor, good instincts, quick hands, strength, low center of mass. Navigating screens.
Off ball? Good instincts, good tools (standing reach/ wingspan/ vertical/ speed), defensive awareness.
I'm open to other people's opinions. I've never really thought about it, actually. |
Ingram had a few games earlier this season where he matched up against elite offensive players and had excellent defensive games. IIRC, One against Butler, one against Derozan, one against Paul George. He has shown flashes of elite defensive upside.
He didn't get a ton of steals and blocks, but those aren't requisites for high level defense. Tayhaun Prince was an excellent defender, and his career STL% and BLK% are both lower than rookie Ingram's STL% and BLK%.
Rookie Ingram several times showed us that he can match up well with elite offensive players. Obviously he wasn't a consistently good defender as a 19 year old rookie, but I think he showed plenty of defensive upside last year. I think he'll be an all NBA defender in his prime, which is why his upside is so high. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
tox Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Nov 2015 Posts: 17876
|
Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
SocalDevin wrote: | tox wrote: | LilJay24 wrote: | Magic Johnson brought up Lonzo making teammates better and didn't bring up Ingram even once. He brought up Randle, Nance, Zu etc.
I would have thought the untouchable guy would atleast be brought up once in terms of how he fits with Lonzo.
Found that kind of odd |
Obviously BI doesn't need anyone to make him better
In retrospect I wonder if calling BI untouchable was Magic's "clever" way of signifying Russell is available, so that he could gauge market value without seeming like he was desperate to trade him? |
Great points.. He isn't dependent on anyone generating offense for him to be effective.
Also, I think we would both agree that Anrdrei Kirilenko was a very good on and off ball defender. He didn't have exceptional lateral quickness.
For this reason I believe we might be making a bit too much of Ingram's defensive shortcomings in his first season. |
Man AK47 was an outlier of outliers. 2.9% STL%, 5.9% BLK% as a rookie. I doubt BI gets close to that in his prime... it outpaces Giannis right now as well.
I don't recall his on ball defense like I do his off ball defense so I don't know if BI can get there. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
DancingBarry Editor-in-Chief
Joined: 07 Sep 2001 Posts: 40198 Location: O.C.
|
Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
JeezyXVII wrote: | LilJay24 wrote: | Magic Johnson brought up Lonzo making teammates better and didn't bring up Ingram even once. He brought up Randle, Nance, Zu etc.
I would have thought the untouchable guy would atleast be brought up once in terms of how he fits with Lonzo.
Found that kind of odd |
He mention Zu and Nance cause they were in the back at the press conf for Lonzo.. and probably thought of the other big guy Rendle.
He didnt mention BI, Lopez, Deng, JC, Brewer, Nwaba.. guess their all getting traded |
Yeah, I'd read nothing into this other than those guys being in the room.
However, pretty sure Nance and Zu both are in our Untouchables with Ingram and now Ball. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
tox Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Nov 2015 Posts: 17876
|
Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
dao wrote: | tox wrote: | nash wrote: | tox wrote: |
GT, can I throw this question back at you? How concerned are you about his low steals/ blocks numbers? And how do you feel about his overall defensive potential? |
Tox let me ask you something too, what characteristics to you think are a must for a player become a good defender? |
Off ball or on ball?
On ball? Quick feet, motor, good instincts, quick hands, strength, low center of mass. Navigating screens.
Off ball? Good instincts, good tools (standing reach/ wingspan/ vertical/ speed), defensive awareness.
I'm open to other people's opinions. I've never really thought about it, actually. |
Ingram had a few games earlier this season where he matched up against elite offensive players and had excellent defensive games. IIRC, One against Butler, one against Derozan, one against Paul George. He has shown flashes of elite defensive upside.
He didn't get a ton of steals and blocks, but those aren't requisites for high level defense. Tayhaun Prince was an excellent defender, and his career STL% and BLK% are both lower than rookie Ingram's STL% and BLK%.
Rookie Ingram several times showed us that he can match up well with elite offensive players. Obviously he wasn't a consistently good defender as a 19 year old rookie, but I think he showed plenty of defensive upside last year. I think he'll be an all NBA defender in his prime, which is why his upside is so high. |
Tayshaun is a perfectly reasonable comparison -- at least what I remember of Tayshaun. I had higher hopes for Ingram defensively a year ago, though. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
SocalDevin Star Player
Joined: 26 May 2016 Posts: 7825 Location: Long Beach
|
Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
tox wrote: | SocalDevin wrote: | tox wrote: | LilJay24 wrote: | Magic Johnson brought up Lonzo making teammates better and didn't bring up Ingram even once. He brought up Randle, Nance, Zu etc.
I would have thought the untouchable guy would atleast be brought up once in terms of how he fits with Lonzo.
Found that kind of odd |
Obviously BI doesn't need anyone to make him better
In retrospect I wonder if calling BI untouchable was Magic's "clever" way of signifying Russell is available, so that he could gauge market value without seeming like he was desperate to trade him? |
Great points.. He isn't dependent on anyone generating offense for him to be effective.
Also, I think we would both agree that Anrdrei Kirilenko was a very good on and off ball defender. He didn't have exceptional lateral quickness.
For this reason I believe we might be making a bit too much of Ingram's defensive shortcomings in his first season. |
Man AK47 was an outlier of outliers. 2.9% STL%, 5.9% BLK% as a rookie. I doubt BI gets close to that in his prime... it outpaces Giannis right now as well.
I don't recall his on ball defense like I do his off ball defense so I don't know if BI can get there. |
Yea him getting there is unlikely.. AK was one of the first players I seen that actually made Kobe uncomfortable. Kobe eventually solved that problem though. =) |
|
Back to top |
|
|
dao Star Player
Joined: 02 Jan 2013 Posts: 5572
|
Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:42 pm Post subject: |
|
|
GoldenThroat wrote: | SocalDevin wrote: | tox wrote: | LilJay24 wrote: | Magic Johnson brought up Lonzo making teammates better and didn't bring up Ingram even once. He brought up Randle, Nance, Zu etc.
I would have thought the untouchable guy would atleast be brought up once in terms of how he fits with Lonzo.
Found that kind of odd |
Obviously BI doesn't need anyone to make him better
In retrospect I wonder if calling BI untouchable was Magic's "clever" way of signifying Russell is available, so that he could gauge market value without seeming like he was desperate to trade him? |
Great points.. He isn't dependent on anyone generating offense for him to be effective.
Also, I think we would both agree that Anrdrei Kirilenko was a very good on and off ball defender. He didn't have exceptional lateral quickness.
For this reason I believe we might be making a bit too much of Ingram's defensive shortcomings in his first season. |
How would we know what he needs to be effective when he hasn't been effective yet? | come on man that's just garbage. He definitely showed some effectiveness at the end of the season. We've seen the numbers earlier in this thread about his driving numbers at the end of the year being borderline elite. We've seen that his mid range jump shooting from february to the end of the season was on par with Guys like Kawhi/Durant/George. So he's shown big time potential in terms of driving and in terms of mid range jump shooting. Driving threat + Mid range game = a very solid foundation for a primary scorer. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
MJST Retired Number
Joined: 06 Jul 2014 Posts: 26309
|
Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Brandon Ingram liked a comment that said HE was actually going to be the best player on the Lakers next year, after Lonzo's press conference _________________ How NBA 2K18 failed the All-Time Lakers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxMBYm3wwxk |
|
Back to top |
|
|
dao Star Player
Joined: 02 Jan 2013 Posts: 5572
|
Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
tox wrote: | dao wrote: | tox wrote: | nash wrote: | tox wrote: |
GT, can I throw this question back at you? How concerned are you about his low steals/ blocks numbers? And how do you feel about his overall defensive potential? |
Tox let me ask you something too, what characteristics to you think are a must for a player become a good defender? |
Off ball or on ball?
On ball? Quick feet, motor, good instincts, quick hands, strength, low center of mass. Navigating screens.
Off ball? Good instincts, good tools (standing reach/ wingspan/ vertical/ speed), defensive awareness.
I'm open to other people's opinions. I've never really thought about it, actually. |
Ingram had a few games earlier this season where he matched up against elite offensive players and had excellent defensive games. IIRC, One against Butler, one against Derozan, one against Paul George. He has shown flashes of elite defensive upside.
He didn't get a ton of steals and blocks, but those aren't requisites for high level defense. Tayhaun Prince was an excellent defender, and his career STL% and BLK% are both lower than rookie Ingram's STL% and BLK%.
Rookie Ingram several times showed us that he can match up well with elite offensive players. Obviously he wasn't a consistently good defender as a 19 year old rookie, but I think he showed plenty of defensive upside last year. I think he'll be an all NBA defender in his prime, which is why his upside is so high. |
Tayshaun is a perfectly reasonable comparison -- at least what I remember of Tayshaun. I had higher hopes for Ingram defensively a year ago, though. |
agreed. But it's way too early to get bent out of shape about his stats. He played his rookie season without an NBA body. He's the same age as the one and done freshmen that were drafted last night. Going forward, he will be a different player athletically. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|