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jodeke
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 Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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| ContagiousInspiration wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | hoopschick29 wrote: |
It's collective amnesia. People continue to question whether whatever contact they had with the Russians and/or other foreign agents is actually criminal. In and of itself...I don't know. BUT...when you have everyone (and I do mean EVERYONE) in Orange Glow's inner circle 'misremembering' their contacts with the SAME SHADY CHARACTERS...what am I as a reasonably-thinking person supposed to think?? These folks have lied on their clearance applications, lied to the FBI...how do you get to amend perjury?? How do you go from 'nope, no meetings,' to more than 100 and get to say 'Oops, lemme fix that.' Where they do that at??? |
There's obviously a big difference between what the public reasonably finds to be shady and suspicious versus what is legally prosecutable. The whole Trump administration is shady as (bleep), but being shady isn't an actual crime.
No one wants to see that rat and the rest of the vermin go down more than I do. So, when and if he does go down, I want him to go down hard and with certainty. I don't want to see a Marcia Clarke/Chris Darden attempt. |
Did they violate any election laws?
Also shouldn't Trump Jr. be considered a co-conspirator since he told Manafort and Kushner about the meeting and brought them along.
If someone says they are planning a bank robbery. And I bring other people along to plan the crime. If the crime never gets committed. Didn't I still help plan to commit a crime? |
I think they got in the vault and didn't find any loot.. considering they didn't get any loot they think they didn't commit a crime |
First it has to be proven you helped to plan the robbery if you don't participate. Then it comes down to he said she said.
I believe Trump is guilty of collusion but it has to be proven. He reminds of a shady loan shark. Helps you get the money but doesn't sign any of the papers. Turns out it a County Wide deal. You get busted he walks with half the money.
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Last edited by jodeke on Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:56 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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hoopschick29
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| Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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Like I said, I don't know if meeting with these shady government characters is a crime or if they violated any election laws. No idea.
But lying to the FBI about said meetings IS a crime.
Lying on your security clearance applications about said meetings IS a crime.
The clowns in this administration have not admitted to a single meeting with any of these foreign government agents until they were caught. Not ONE. Blankets NOs across the board, until they were found out.
Kushner
Sessions
Flynn
We can figure out if they lied to cover up a crime later. For now, the crime IS the perjury, which they all committed.
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kikanga
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| Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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| jodeke wrote: |
First it has to be proven you helped to plan the robbery if you don't participate. |
So forwarding the email to Manafort and Kushner and bringing both along. Is that considered "helping to plan"?
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32
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| Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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FiveThirtyEight @FiveThirtyEight
If you’re counting along, it seems like the new GOP health care bill starts with 4 “noes” and 3 “maybes.”
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | hoopschick29 wrote: |
It's collective amnesia. People continue to question whether whatever contact they had with the Russians and/or other foreign agents is actually criminal. In and of itself...I don't know. BUT...when you have everyone (and I do mean EVERYONE) in Orange Glow's inner circle 'misremembering' their contacts with the SAME SHADY CHARACTERS...what am I as a reasonably-thinking person supposed to think?? These folks have lied on their clearance applications, lied to the FBI...how do you get to amend perjury?? How do you go from 'nope, no meetings,' to more than 100 and get to say 'Oops, lemme fix that.' Where they do that at??? |
There's obviously a big difference between what the public reasonably finds to be shady and suspicious versus what is legally prosecutable. The whole Trump administration is shady as (bleep), but being shady isn't an actual crime.
No one wants to see that rat and the rest of the vermin go down more than I do. So, when and if he does go down, I want him to go down hard and with certainty. I don't want to see a Marcia Clarke/Chris Darden attempt. |
Did they violate any election laws?
Also shouldn't Trump Jr. be considered a co-conspirator since he told Manafort and Kushner about the meeting and brought them along.
If someone says they are planning a bank robbery. And I bring other people along to plan the crime. If the crime never gets committed. Didn't I still help plan to commit a crime? |
As has been discussed here, it is not explicitly clear either way.
As for the bank robbery question, if the crime never gets committed, it's pretty tough to prove that the intent was really there. If you and a couple of friends sit around and say, "If we were going to knock off this bank, how would we do it?" but never really do it, who is to prove that you were doing anything more than speaking hypothetically.
Again, my point isn't to deny any ill-intent on the part of the Trumps. My point is that, at least from what we have seen, a prosecutable offense isn't necessarily there.
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jodeke
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| Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | jodeke wrote: |
First it has to be proven you helped to plan the robbery if you don't participate. |
So forwarding the email to Manafort and Kushner and bringing both along. Is that considered "helping to plan"? |
How does that prove collusion? Isn't that what the discussion centers around?
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America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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kikanga
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| Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: |
As has been discussed here, it is not explicitly clear either way.
As for the bank robbery question, if the crime never gets committed, it's pretty tough to prove that the intent was really there. If you and a couple of friends sit around and say, "If we were going to knock off this bank, how would we do it?" but never really do it, who is to prove that you were doing anything more than speaking hypothetically.
Again, my point isn't to deny any ill-intent on the part of the Trumps. My point is that, at least from what we have seen, a prosecutable offense isn't necessarily there. |
I understand. I'm just treating this convo as a learning experience.
Could the same thing be argued in other cases?
Same thing goes if we talk about blowing up the White House or taking out the President? As long as it doesn't get done. Everyone is in the clear?
Don't we drone people in the Middle East all the time before they can commit the crime they've planned?
And in this case the crime actually occurred. The DNC and DCCC were actually hacked.
So we have Trump Jr. approving the hack in the email. And we have Trump Jr. bringing into the mix more people into the hacking plot (Manafort & Kushner). I mean does Trump Jr. literally have to write the computer code that was used in the hack for there to be any repercussions. Or would people just argue he copied that code from another hack done by another hacker. So technically he didn't break any laws. 
I can't believe the bolded in my post isn't considered criminal.
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ChefLinda
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| Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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Conspiracy to commit a crime. I'm not saying this happened or can be proven, but this is seems relevant to the ongoing conversation: Link
| Quote: | Conspiracy
A criminal conspiracy exists when two or more people agree to commit almost any unlawful act, then take some action toward its completion. The action taken need not itself be a crime, but it must indicate that those involved in the conspiracy knew of the plan and intended to break the law. One person may be charged with and convicted of both conspiracy and the underlying crime based on the same circumstances.
For example, Andy, Dan, and Alice plan a bank robbery. They 1) visit the bank first to assess security, 2) pool their money and buy a gun together, and 3) write a demand letter. All three can be charged with conspiracy to commit robbery, regardless of whether the robbery itself is actually attempted or completed.
The "Agreement" Requirement
You might be wondering how exactly the agreement between two co-conspirators actually takes place. First, the agreement does not need to be expressly conveyed. For instance, in the above example, Andy isn't required to tell Dan and Alice in unequivocal terms, "I agree to commit a conspiracy with you," (although, that statement would surely be a prosecutor's dream and strong evidence of a criminal conspiracy).
Instead, the agreement may be implicit or shown by the action of "two or more guilty minds," as required under common law. Examples of evidence of an implicit agreement can include the appearance of the co-defendants at transactions and negotiations in furtherance of the conspiracy such as a planning meeting.
The Element of "Intent"
As with other specific intent crimes, your intention means everything. But that's not the only intent the court will care about. Not only does one other individual in the conspiracy need to intend to agree, all parties must intend to achieve the outcome.
Simply put, knowledge of a crime isn't enough to get you thrown behind bars. For instance, just because your friend tells you he is going to burglarize a house, doesn't mean you are part of the conspiracy to burglarize it. Not unless you also agree to help by acting as a getaway car or helping him scope out the property ahead of time.
Penalties
A conspiracy conviction can yield some pretty tough penalties depending on the underlying crime. You can be punished for both the conspiracy and the actual crime itself if, it were completed. For example, if you are charged and convicted of conspiracy to commit robbery and the actual crime of robbery, you may have to suffer the consequences of both. Additionally, in some cases if you are convicted of a conspiracy to commit a felony, you may have to serve a mandatory minimum sentence. |
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SweetP
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| Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: |
As has been discussed here, it is not explicitly clear either way.
As for the bank robbery question, if the crime never gets committed, it's pretty tough to prove that the intent was really there. If you and a couple of friends sit around and say, "If we were going to knock off this bank, how would we do it?" but never really do it, who is to prove that you were doing anything more than speaking hypothetically.
Again, my point isn't to deny any ill-intent on the part of the Trumps. My point is that, at least from what we have seen, a prosecutable offense isn't necessarily there. |
I understand. I'm just treating this convo as a learning experience.
Could the same thing be argued in other cases?
Same thing goes if we talk about blowing up the White House or taking out the President? As long as it doesn't get done. Everyone is in the clear?
Don't we drone people in the Middle East all the time before they can commit the crime they've planned?
And in this case the crime actually occurred. The DNC and DCCC were actually hacked.
So we have Trump Jr. approving the hack in the email. And we have Trump Jr. bringing into the mix more people into the hacking plot (Manafort & Kushner). I mean does Trump Jr. literally have to write the computer code that was used in the hack for there to be any repercussions. Or would people just argue he copied that code from another hack done by another hacker. So technically he didn't break any laws.
I can't believe the bolded in my post isn't considered criminal. |
Except we don't having him approving the hacking. He indicated he was eager and willing to receive sensitive info on HRC but it's not identified as the hacking. The timeline is very suspicious but not definitive, yet. There may be other shoes left to drop that would make the link more clear.
And I am sure Muller is looking into it. 
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ChefLinda
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| Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Ted LieuVerified account @tedlieu
Dear @realDonaldTrump: Conspiracy to solicit oppo research from a FOREIGN NATIONAL violates federal law. You may want to pardon your son now |
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splashmtn
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| Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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| jodeke wrote: | | I've wondered, why do these guys email texts that are incriminating? If they wipe their hard drives clean do they think the texts just go into cyberspace? They're immortalized. |
they can't help it. its this generation(not the age of the person. but the culture we live in with these devices). we are so use to using all of these digital things that we are careless.
We found out back in the day that your phone could be tapped if the feds really wanted to. but we all knew most of our phones were not tapped.
well. all phones and emails are tapped. not by the feds. but by the internet/service provider. there is a copy of all that info.
there is a copy of your location and driving/walking habits.
if push comes to shove. they already know.
cheaters are texting their side pieces with the phone they own and share an account with their spouses.
criminals are robbing banks with cell phones in tow.
DA is like "Where were you the morning of the 25th?"
Robber" uhhhh... at home sleep"
DA "Ok Google.... where was the robber..... |
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splashmtn
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| Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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| ChefLinda wrote: | | Quote: | Ted LieuVerified account @tedlieu
Dear @realDonaldTrump: Conspiracy to solicit oppo research from a FOREIGN NATIONAL violates federal law. You may want to pardon your son now |
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can't pardon him until they hit him with something.
if i were the feds. I would try my best to hit Trump SR first. Get him up out of office. then try to hit him with something to put him in jail. THEnnnnn hit the son and son in law and anyone else affiliated. in that order. No pardons if you aint the president right? |
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ChefLinda
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| Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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The Real Scandal Now Is How Team Trump Helped Putin Conceal His Attack on America --Keeping Russia’s secret. By David Corn, Mother Jones
| Quote: | A few weeks ago, I wrote a piece noting that whether or not Donald Trump colluded with Vladimir Putin’s covert operation to subvert the 2016 campaign, the public record was already clear that Trump, knowingly or not, had aided and abetted Russia’s war on US democracy. He did so by repeatedly ignoring evidence and denying Moscow’s role in the criminal hacking of Democratic targets and the subsequent release of stolen emails. Those denials muddied the storyline and prevented a vigorous bipartisan response to Putin’s attack.
The disclosure this week of Donald Trump Jr.’s emails revealing that he, Jared Kushner, and Paul Manafort joined what they believed was a secret Russian government project to disseminate dirt on Hillary Clinton shows that the Trump campaign went far beyond creating a political climate favorable to Putin’s clandestine assault. The Trump camp actually protected Russian intelligence while it was waging information warfare against the United States—and Trump’s most intimate advisers knew they were doing so.
The new emails prove that in the first week of June 2016, Trump Jr.; Kushner, Trump’s son-in-law and key adviser; and Manafort, who the previous month had been named Trump’s campaign chairman and chief strategist, all became aware there was a Russian government plot to help Trump become president. |
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splashmtn
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| Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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| ChefLinda wrote: | Conspiracy to commit a crime. I'm not saying this happened or can be proven, but this is seems relevant to the ongoing conversation: Link
| Quote: | Conspiracy
A criminal conspiracy exists when two or more people agree to commit almost any unlawful act, then take some action toward its completion. The action taken need not itself be a crime, but it must indicate that those involved in the conspiracy knew of the plan and intended to break the law. One person may be charged with and convicted of both conspiracy and the underlying crime based on the same circumstances.
For example, Andy, Dan, and Alice plan a bank robbery. They 1) visit the bank first to assess security, 2) pool their money and buy a gun together, and 3) write a demand letter. All three can be charged with conspiracy to commit robbery, regardless of whether the robbery itself is actually attempted or completed.
The "Agreement" Requirement
You might be wondering how exactly the agreement between two co-conspirators actually takes place. First, the agreement does not need to be expressly conveyed. For instance, in the above example, Andy isn't required to tell Dan and Alice in unequivocal terms, "I agree to commit a conspiracy with you," (although, that statement would surely be a prosecutor's dream and strong evidence of a criminal conspiracy).
Instead, the agreement may be implicit or shown by the action of "two or more guilty minds," as required under common law. Examples of evidence of an implicit agreement can include the appearance of the co-defendants at transactions and negotiations in furtherance of the conspiracy such as a planning meeting.
The Element of "Intent"
As with other specific intent crimes, your intention means everything. But that's not the only intent the court will care about. Not only does one other individual in the conspiracy need to intend to agree, all parties must intend to achieve the outcome.
Simply put, knowledge of a crime isn't enough to get you thrown behind bars. For instance, just because your friend tells you he is going to burglarize a house, doesn't mean you are part of the conspiracy to burglarize it. Not unless you also agree to help by acting as a getaway car or helping him scope out the property ahead of time.
Penalties
A conspiracy conviction can yield some pretty tough penalties depending on the underlying crime. You can be punished for both the conspiracy and the actual crime itself if, it were completed. For example, if you are charged and convicted of conspiracy to commit robbery and the actual crime of robbery, you may have to suffer the consequences of both. Additionally, in some cases if you are convicted of a conspiracy to commit a felony, you may have to serve a mandatory minimum sentence. |
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Yes..this is how some kids were charged recently after someone ratted them out for saying they were going to shoot up their own school.
this is also the same thing they use for people they catch making terrorist plots. The plot is more than enough to convict you.
you dont have to do a darn thing but Plot/plan it and if it can be proven you did just that. well...you can be convicted. |
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ChefLinda
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| Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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| splashmtn wrote: | | ChefLinda wrote: | | Quote: | Ted LieuVerified account @tedlieu
Dear @realDonaldTrump: Conspiracy to solicit oppo research from a FOREIGN NATIONAL violates federal law. You may want to pardon your son now |
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can't pardon him until they hit him with something.
if i were the feds. I would try my best to hit Trump SR first. Get him up out of office. then try to hit him with something to put him in jail. THEnnnnn hit the son and son in law and anyone else affiliated. in that order. No pardons if you aint the president right? |
Ted Lieu was trolling him there... |
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SweetP
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| Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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There's chatter now that Trump Sr. is admitting that Jr's meeting "might have been mentioned to him" but he didn't know it was about dirt on Hilary.
So another shoe may be getting ready to drop, that in fact Sr. knew about the meeting.
The one he has denied knowing about prior to the news releases. The one Jr. denied happened and then said was just about adoptions and Jared and Manafort didn't know what it was about (all this before the NY Times said we have your emails that show otherwise).
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splashmtn
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| Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | splashmtn wrote: | | Hector the Pup wrote: | | LakesGnrLake wrote: | | governator wrote: | quid pro quo
ˌkwid ˌprō ˈkwō/Submit
noun
a favor or advantage granted or expected in return for something. |
I dont recall seeing any of that in the email. It's mostly people saying he was probably going to do this or might have done that but nothing concrete |
So you're cool with it if your girlfriend goes to some guys house to have sex, but doesn't end up having sex because he really just wanted to sell her some tupperware? |
excellent analogy. |
Especially when there's a good chance she really did have sex and is just telling him she didnt. |
The flaw in the analogy (at least in the context of this discussion) is that despite the apparent intent, once at the house she didn't follow through and there was no wrong doing on the part of the girlfriend. Sure, as a boyfriend, the potential betrayal of trust would be an issue that could lead you to break up, but that's a relationship issue, not a legal issue and there's no actionable course for anything punitive other than that. Without proof that the Tupperware was actually stolen, there's no wrong doing outside of the erosion of personal trust.
An analogy that is more pertinent to what Junior did would be one where Junior considers robbing a bank and meets with potential partners only to back out and decide he doesn't want to participate. Sure, one could say that there was an intent to conspire on a crime, but without him following through, that's a tough charge to prosecute. Even if you found a prosecutor to pursue the case, the likelihood of a conviction is right about nil.
What Junior did was shady, likely based on the intent and willingness to conspire and potentially criminal. But without any further evidence that something did happen that is not revealed in the emails etc., there's nothing to prosecute.
If we were going to go with the girlfriend analogy, we would have to make it involve a wife. The wife goes to a potential sex partner's house but only leaves with some Tupperware. As a spouse, you may be done. But as far as any divorce proceedings went, there would be no charge of adultery to use, despite the fact that she apparently thought about it. |
I think you missed the point that was being made with the analogy.
its called Intent in law.
have you heard of Solicitation?
What i said earlier is a fact of how we see cops setup sting operations to get Johns to solicit prostitutes for sex which is obviously illegal in those states/cities/counties.
The john will never have actual sex with the female officer who is working under cover. So ask yourself, how on earth is said John convicted if he never actually had sex? doesnt matter. soliciting is the crime.
lets move on to drug dealing. Do you know how many guys they catch with drugs on them. depending on the amt. they hit you with possession(a certain amt). then if you have an amt over just the possession limit(vary's by state/city possibly) they turn that possession into INTENT to sell.
Now they never caught you selling a darn thing. Doesnt matter. You're going to be convicted of Intent to sell drugs. and you could very well end up behind bars.
we can do the same with a person trying to kill someone but the person doesnt die. Intent to kill/murder. The person never died. but the intent was was there. |
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ChefLinda
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| Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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| SweetP wrote: | There's chatter now that Trump Sr. is admitting that Jr's meeting "might have been mentioned to him" but he didn't know it was about dirt on Hilary.
So another shoe may be getting ready to drop, that in fact Sr. knew about the meeting.
The one he has denied knowing about prior to the news releases. The one Jr. denied happened and then said was just about adoptions and Jared and Manafort didn't know what it was about (all this before the NY Times said we have your emails that show otherwise). |
You can bet Mueller will be issuing a subpoena for Trump's assistant's computer, because she was apparently also forwarded the email chain. Trump doesn't use a computer or email (just Twitter from his phone), so everything gets forwarded to his assistant. And I'm sure someone will be showing up to question her about what she printed out and gave to Trump or what she told him. That's probably why he's half-admitting it now. It's gonna come out.
And he's already complicit in trying to cover it up with the phony adoption excuse over the weekend which he personally signed off on.
These are more instances to add to the Cover-Up and Obstruction of Justice charges Mueller is no doubt piling up. |
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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Here's a little insight into the "integrity" of Trump's lawyer in the Russia case:
rump Lawyer Marc Kasowitz Threatens Stranger in Emails: ‘Watch Your Back’
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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32
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| Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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In Mueller We Trust.
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SweetP
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| Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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Wow, his impulse control is very Trump-like.
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ChefLinda
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| Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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And for the people who think none of this will ever get prosecuted...
If you think liberals loathe Trump, what do you think career prosecutors, career FBI and career Intelligence officers think about Trump? He has bashed them, disrespected them and undermined them at every turn. He is an affront to all they believe in and everything they've dedicated their careers to, namely the Rule of Law and defending the principles of the Constitution.
If there is enough evidence to bring him down, they will. They will turn over every rock, stone and piece of intel gathered for the last 20 years looking to connect the dots.
These types of cases start at the bottom and work their way up, with a few people flipping along the way. |
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32
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| Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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Bradd Jaffy @BraddJaffy
Peter W. Smith, GOP operative who sought Clinton's emails from Russian hackers, committed suicide, records show.
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ChefLinda
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| Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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This is the same attorney who has threatened and intimidated all of Trump's previous sexual harassment accusers, often threatening to counter-sue them into the poor house and threatening to make it impossible for them ever to get a job again. Unfortunately, those tactics worked to a large degree in the past. |
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DaMuleRules
Retired Number
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 52657
Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
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| Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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| SweetP wrote: |
Wow, his impulse control is very Trump-like. |
Yeah . . . like non-existent. 
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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