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22
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 Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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| AY2043 wrote: | | SocalDevin wrote: | This is In regards to Ingram this off-season..
“Anybody that called us wanted him,” Johnson said. “We said, ‘No thank you.'”
These GM's must be nuts to want a guy as terrible as Ingram was his rookie year. And stats prove he was god awful..  |
You're being disingenuous. The stats were bad, that is an objective fact.
But no one is denying that he has a lot of potential, which is why other teams want him and we're not trading him. |
Exactly. Love Ingram. Dude is given massive leash though haha |
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SocalDevin
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| Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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| 22 wrote: | | AY2043 wrote: | | SocalDevin wrote: | This is In regards to Ingram this off-season..
“Anybody that called us wanted him,” Johnson said. “We said, ‘No thank you.'”
These GM's must be nuts to want a guy as terrible as Ingram was his rookie year. And stats prove he was god awful.. |
You're being disingenuous. The stats were bad, that is an objective fact.
But no one is denying that he has a lot of potential, which is why other teams want him and we're not trading him. |
Exactly. Love Ingram. Dude is given massive leash though haha |
A massive leash? How so? |
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dao
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| Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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| MJST wrote: | | dao wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | dao wrote: | | It would be a rare jump, no doubt. But Ingram's growth curv in his rookie year was extremely rare as well. |
No, it would be an unprecedented jump, and no, his growth curve was not "extremely rare". Here were his Per 36's. His usage went WAY up in 7 games in April, while his efficiency went way down as a result. He got better, but you're grossly exaggerating his improvement statistically.
http://i.imgur.com/XPi73Ew.png |
Look at that FG% trend. What other examples do we have of such a sustained, consistent improvement from a rook? |
D'Angelo Russell and Julius Randle. |
just checked their rookie year stats. Neither of them display the linear growth in fg% or points per 36 like Ingram did. |
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MJST
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| Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 2:11 am Post subject: |
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| dao wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | dao wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | dao wrote: | | It would be a rare jump, no doubt. But Ingram's growth curv in his rookie year was extremely rare as well. |
No, it would be an unprecedented jump, and no, his growth curve was not "extremely rare". Here were his Per 36's. His usage went WAY up in 7 games in April, while his efficiency went way down as a result. He got better, but you're grossly exaggerating his improvement statistically.
http://i.imgur.com/XPi73Ew.png |
Look at that FG% trend. What other examples do we have of such a sustained, consistent improvement from a rook? |
D'Angelo Russell and Julius Randle. |
just checked their rookie year stats. Neither of them display the linear growth in fg% or points per 36 like Ingram did. |
just gonna go off memory as I was looking up this earlier to show the stats pre and post ASB or pre and post Feb, but got bored and did other stuff so I''ll just go off memory here.
Pre Feb Ingram shot around 37%
Post Feb break he shot about 45% from the field. Raised 7%
Randle's post ASB rose 5% and Russell's 3 point shot rose about 8% and his FG remained about the same. Russell's ppg also rose from 11 to 15. Ingram's rose from about 10 a game to 14.
So yes in terms of scoring and field goal percentage, Russell did experience a similar 'assurance' but ultimately had better first year numbers and a better rookie season than Ingram all around while experiencing that 'jump'.
Julius Randle's points and rebounds raised about 2 from the beginning of the season to post ASB, but more importantly his efficiency from the field rose from 40% Pre ASB to 45% post ASB, and his free throw percentage rose from 70% to 75% to end the season.
So yes there was a lot of progression from Randle and Russell to the extent people want to give Ingram. One of the reasons Ingram's post ASB was considered drastic was in some ways because his rookie season went from horrible to okay. Russell and Randle both had solid rookie seasons by comparison and similar leaps post ASB.
Ingram didn't make some "legendary leap" post ASB however. And if people want to jump on the "Well the jump Ingram means makes him a future all-star!!" then Russell and Randle fit into the same category if we're judging the kids all on equal ground. But most don't seem to want to, they pick a favorite, deem them as "the one" and act like everyone else is a finished product and ignore or undervalue their progress in comparison.
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dao
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| Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 2:40 am Post subject: |
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rookie Randle per 36 starting in november(only 2 games played in october)
Points-fg%
14.5-48.4
16.3-39.3
13.3-40.7
15.3-46.7
15.4-47.9
10.3-36.2
that's nothing like Ingram's growth curve, which showed month by month improvement in fg% and points per 36.
Just realized I previously looked at the wrong year for Russell. He actually does have a linear month by month growth in points per 36 as a rookie. His efficiency was cyclical though, both in fg% and TS%. Too lazy to post the numbers. |
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la4win
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| Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 3:21 am Post subject: |
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| I am really excited to see how Ingram will play this season. The look he had during summer league where each time he demanded the ball and looked at the defender saying "I'm going to destroy was awesome". It was like a super star player showing he is the best player in the court. That mentality will make him so much better player this year and added the great work ethics he has, he is going to be the most improved player of the year. |
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oldlakerfan
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| Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 3:25 am Post subject: |
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I think there is a good chance he averages in the high teens or low 20's.
Did you see him in that one game of summer league?
He was aggressive and explosive, I mean wow explosive as he looked really athletic. There has been a serious change in this young man and he looks to be ready to breakout and be a star now.
I think his outside shooting will be better and that unblockable turnaround jumper will be money. Lonzo passing will be good for 5 points a game in easy baskets for BI.
He was a kid las year and is now a man |
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MJST
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| Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 3:29 am Post subject: |
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| dao wrote: | rookie Randle per 36 starting in november(only 2 games played in october)
Points-fg%
14.5-48.4
16.3-39.3
13.3-40.7
15.3-46.7
15.4-47.9
10.3-36.2
that's nothing like Ingram's growth curve, which showed month by month improvement in fg% and points per 36.
Just realized I previously looked at the wrong year for Russell. He actually does have a linear month by month growth in points per 36 as a rookie. His efficiency was cyclical though, both in fg% and TS%. Too lazy to post the numbers. |
Julius Randle Pre ASB
11/10/1.7 on 41.7% from field and 70% from Free Throw
Julius Randle post ASB
12/11/2 on 45.3% from the field and 75% from Free Throw
Brandon Ingram Pre ASB
8/4/2 on 36.3% from the field 30.4% from three 65% from Free Throw
Brandon Ingram Post ASB
13/4/2.5 on 47.5% from the field 26.9% from three 54.5% from Free Throw
Ingram's main success was an increased usage rate and efficiency in getting to the basket, that was where his 'breakthrough' was, because it definitely wasn't in his shooting, it was in his finishing. But again, it wasn't a legendary "breakthrough". One of the reasons people try to make it that is because his first half of the season was so historically bad.
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RI Laker
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| Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 3:46 am Post subject: |
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| BI will have his coming out party this year. You can book it! |
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AFireInside619
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| Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 9:03 am Post subject: |
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Numbers aside, there's the eye test aspect to Ingram's improvement. Magic told him that to improve his game he had to take more contact. There were three things that could have happened at this point. He could have rolled his eyes and said, "whatever man." He could have tried but not had the ability to succeed. Or he could have listen, done it, and be successful. Not only was Ingram successful, but he became a monster taking it to the hole.
There are things behind the scenes that fans (I'm sorry but that's all we are) don't get to see. As fans (short for fanatics), we often think with our hearts over our heads. Basically what I'm trying to say is a lot of the Ingram bashing over here is in reaction to DLO. People seem upset that Ingram was touted as untouchable by Magic (rightfully so on Magic's end). People lost their minds when Russell was traded (rightfully so as fans). Just because Russell was treated a certain way by management and both coaching staffs, that doesn't give people an excuse to bash on Ingram. When we get bad news in the mail, do we blame the mail person? Do we point out their flaws whether professionally or personally? When you go to the casino and play cards, do you blame the dealer when you lose? Even though you went there on your on volition. If you do, you're pretty much a un-evolved, knuckle dragging, Neanderthal.
We can't blame Ingram for Russell being gone. Ingram's work ethic sounds legendary thus far. I didn't believe him pre-draft when he said all he does is spend his time at the gym, then go home. But so far, that seems to be the case. At the same time, in not bashing DLO for enjoying the LA nightlife. Every single one of us would have done the same in his shoes.
What I did find interesting was how the coaching staff and players seemed super high on Ingram, especially during exit interviews. That does speaks a for the guy's character though. |
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justsomelakerfan
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| Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 9:21 am Post subject: |
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I don't disagree with anything I'm reading about Brandon Ingram having the potential to make a huge leap from last season to this season. I think it's possible! But we should really think about what "huge leap" means vs "legendary, greatest-leap-of-all-time" with Brandon going from 9.4ppg on gross efficiency to becoming a solid 20ppg scorer in one season as a barely 20 year old.
A huge leap would be a solid 15/6/3 sort of season and it would absolutely be MIP worthy. Going to 20ppg after last season is honestly legendary, there's no other word to describe a leap like that. I'm not hating for saying that he won't do it! Just being realistic. He might get to that level in a couple years, but asking him, expecting him to become a 20ppg scorer after last year is certifiable |
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AFireInside619
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| Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 9:23 am Post subject: |
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| justsomelakerfan wrote: | I don't disagree with anything I'm reading about Brandon Ingram having the potential to make a huge leap from last season to this season. I think it's possible! But we should really think about what "huge leap" means vs "legendary, greatest-leap-of-all-time" with Brandon going from 9.4ppg on gross efficiency to becoming a solid 20ppg scorer in one season as a barely 20 year old.
A huge leap would be a solid 15/6/3 sort of season and it would absolutely be MIP worthy. Going to 20ppg after last season is honestly legendary, there's no other word to describe a leap like that. I'm not hating for saying that he won't do it! Just being realistic. He might get to that level in a couple years, but asking him, expecting him to become a 20ppg scorer after last year is certifiable |
Yes, that's a lot to ask of a second year player who's not even 20 yet.
Last edited by AFireInside619 on Sun Jul 23, 2017 10:53 am; edited 1 time in total |
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justsomelakerfan
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| Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 9:26 am Post subject: |
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| AFireInside619 wrote: | | justsomelakerfan wrote: | I don't disagree with anything I'm reading about Brandon Ingram having the potential to make a huge leap from last season to this season. I think it's possible! But we should really think about what "huge leap" means vs "legendary, greatest-leap-of-all-time" with Brandon going from 9.4ppg on gross efficiency to becoming a solid 20ppg scorer in one season as a barely 20 year old.
A huge leap would be a solid 15/6/3 sort of season and it would absolutely be MIP worthy. Going to 20ppg after last season is honestly legendary, there's no other word to describe a leap like that. I'm not hating for saying that he won't do it! Just being realistic. He might get to that level in a couple years, but asking him, expecting him to become a 20ppg scorer after last year is certifiable |
Yes, that's a lot to ask of a second year player who's. it even 20 yet. |
It is! And honestly it's so much of a simple issue to avoid, to turn this into a positive reinforcement sort of thing instead of holding it over Ingram's head, if Magic bleepin' Johnson could say something like "I think he has the potential to become a 20ppg scorer sooner than later" rather than saying he'd be disappointed if he wasn't one this year? It's just crazy. |
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venturalakersfan
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Location: The Gold Coast
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| Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 11:15 am Post subject: |
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| SocalDevin wrote: | This is In regards to Ingram this off-season..
“Anybody that called us wanted him,” Johnson said. “We said, ‘No thank you.'”
These GM's must be nuts to want a guy as terrible as Ingram was his rookie year. And stats prove he was god awful.. |
You believe what Magic says?
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RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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misterrunon
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| Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 11:18 am Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | SocalDevin wrote: | This is In regards to Ingram this off-season..
“Anybody that called us wanted him,” Johnson said. “We said, ‘No thank you.'”
These GM's must be nuts to want a guy as terrible as Ingram was his rookie year. And stats prove he was god awful.. |
You believe what Magic says? |
He's been brutally honest, which has drawn a lot of criticism. So yes, I tend to believe what Magic says. |
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CRoost
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Posts: 4798
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| Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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| justsomelakerfan wrote: | I don't disagree with anything I'm reading about Brandon Ingram having the potential to make a huge leap from last season to this season. I think it's possible! But we should really think about what "huge leap" means vs "legendary, greatest-leap-of-all-time" with Brandon going from 9.4ppg on gross efficiency to becoming a solid 20ppg scorer in one season as a barely 20 year old.
A huge leap would be a solid 15/6/3 sort of season and it would absolutely be MIP worthy. Going to 20ppg after last season is honestly legendary, there's no other word to describe a leap like that. I'm not hating for saying that he won't do it! Just being realistic. He might get to that level in a couple years, but asking him, expecting him to become a 20ppg scorer after last year is certifiable |
Ain't all about the numbers. The more important thing to me is the improvement of his game and what kind of impact does he had to the team success. Some people put up 20ppg and has little or no impact at all. I rather have the Untouchable put up all around numbers and his game demand a lot of attention from opposing teams. I believed he will continue to improve with his impeccable work ethic. To me, it's just a matter of time when he will take that leap of faith and impose his will on the game. |
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SocalDevin
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Location: Long Beach
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| Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | SocalDevin wrote: | This is In regards to Ingram this off-season..
“Anybody that called us wanted him,” Johnson said. “We said, ‘No thank you.'”
These GM's must be nuts to want a guy as terrible as Ingram was his rookie year. And stats prove he was god awful.. |
1) Ingram had a terrible rookie season.
2) Ingram has the potential to be a fantastic player.
Those two things can both be true at the same time. |
Yep, they can both be true, but some of you tend to harp on the negatives in regards to Ingram.
There's usually someone raining on the parade with rookie stats when we gush over him. Which is your or their prerogative. I just think it's silly, and it makes you come off as a hater when you're always doing it. |
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SocalDevin
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Joined: 26 May 2016
Posts: 7825
Location: Long Beach
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| Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | SocalDevin wrote: | This is In regards to Ingram this off-season..
“Anybody that called us wanted him,” Johnson said. “We said, ‘No thank you.'”
These GM's must be nuts to want a guy as terrible as Ingram was his rookie year. And stats prove he was god awful.. |
You believe what Magic says? |
Yea, if he say's or communicates that he's high on a player why wouldn't I? Unless he's deliberately trying to up that players value for a trade. And I doubt he's trying to increase Ingram's value to trade him.
Do you think he just made up everything he said?? |
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justsomelakerfan
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Joined: 16 Jul 2016
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| Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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| CRoost wrote: | | justsomelakerfan wrote: | I don't disagree with anything I'm reading about Brandon Ingram having the potential to make a huge leap from last season to this season. I think it's possible! But we should really think about what "huge leap" means vs "legendary, greatest-leap-of-all-time" with Brandon going from 9.4ppg on gross efficiency to becoming a solid 20ppg scorer in one season as a barely 20 year old.
A huge leap would be a solid 15/6/3 sort of season and it would absolutely be MIP worthy. Going to 20ppg after last season is honestly legendary, there's no other word to describe a leap like that. I'm not hating for saying that he won't do it! Just being realistic. He might get to that level in a couple years, but asking him, expecting him to become a 20ppg scorer after last year is certifiable |
Ain't all about the numbers. The more important thing to me is the improvement of his game and what kind of impact does he had to the team success. Some people put up 20ppg and has little or no impact at all. I rather have the Untouchable put up all around numbers and his game demand a lot of attention from opposing teams. I believed he will continue to improve with his impeccable work ethic. To me, it's just a matter of time when he will take that leap of faith and impose his will on the game. |
I 100% agree with your assessment on his game here and it's what I was saying earlier, Ingram's value isn't a top of the league scorer nor has that ever really been his game. His value is being able to potentially impact everywhere while having ISO scoring potential. Valuing him based on how many points he scores is having kind of a hollow outlook on him. |
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CRoost
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| Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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| SocalDevin wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | SocalDevin wrote: | This is In regards to Ingram this off-season..
“Anybody that called us wanted him,” Johnson said. “We said, ‘No thank you.'”
These GM's must be nuts to want a guy as terrible as Ingram was his rookie year. And stats prove he was god awful.. |
1) Ingram had a terrible rookie season.
2) Ingram has the potential to be a fantastic player.
Those two things can both be true at the same time. |
Yep, they can both be true, but some of you tend to harp on the negatives in regards to Ingram.
There's usually someone raining on the parade with rookie stats when we gush over him. Which is your or their prerogative. I just think it's silly, and it makes you come off as a hater when you're always doing it. |
Rookie stats are meaningless. Not all players mature on the same rate. It's what what you do when you put it together and the physical attributes to get it done. There are so many factors on reaching that potential. No major injuries, great attitude and willingness to learn, love and passion for the game with impeccable work ethic, motivation and commitment and front office put the right players around you etc. I'm so glad that Magic weeded out expendable players and have Lonzo that reign and Ingram to be the go to guy with takeover ability like take over game over mode. Lonzo will set the pace and Ingram will be the closer. |
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SocalDevin
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Joined: 26 May 2016
Posts: 7825
Location: Long Beach
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| Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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| justsomelakerfan wrote: | | CRoost wrote: | | justsomelakerfan wrote: | I don't disagree with anything I'm reading about Brandon Ingram having the potential to make a huge leap from last season to this season. I think it's possible! But we should really think about what "huge leap" means vs "legendary, greatest-leap-of-all-time" with Brandon going from 9.4ppg on gross efficiency to becoming a solid 20ppg scorer in one season as a barely 20 year old.
A huge leap would be a solid 15/6/3 sort of season and it would absolutely be MIP worthy. Going to 20ppg after last season is honestly legendary, there's no other word to describe a leap like that. I'm not hating for saying that he won't do it! Just being realistic. He might get to that level in a couple years, but asking him, expecting him to become a 20ppg scorer after last year is certifiable |
Ain't all about the numbers. The more important thing to me is the improvement of his game and what kind of impact does he had to the team success. Some people put up 20ppg and has little or no impact at all. I rather have the Untouchable put up all around numbers and his game demand a lot of attention from opposing teams. I believed he will continue to improve with his impeccable work ethic. To me, it's just a matter of time when he will take that leap of faith and impose his will on the game. |
I 100% agree with your assessment on his game here and it's what I was saying earlier, Ingram's value isn't a top of the league scorer nor has that ever really been his game. His value is being able to potentially impact everywhere while having ISO scoring potential. Valuing him based on how many points he scores is having kind of a hollow outlook on him. |
I somewhat agree, think you guys are wrong about him being a top of the league scorer.. He's clearly demonstrated an ability to get his own shot and score with a high fg percentage. It's the reason why Magic said what he said about him averaging 20Ppg. He can do that and still have an all around game. Not have an all around game and give you some scoring, I see it the other way around. |
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SocalDevin
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Posts: 7825
Location: Long Beach
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| Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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| CRoost wrote: | | SocalDevin wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | SocalDevin wrote: | This is In regards to Ingram this off-season..
“Anybody that called us wanted him,” Johnson said. “We said, ‘No thank you.'”
These GM's must be nuts to want a guy as terrible as Ingram was his rookie year. And stats prove he was god awful.. |
1) Ingram had a terrible rookie season.
2) Ingram has the potential to be a fantastic player.
Those two things can both be true at the same time. |
Yep, they can both be true, but some of you tend to harp on the negatives in regards to Ingram.
There's usually someone raining on the parade with rookie stats when we gush over him. Which is your or their prerogative. I just think it's silly, and it makes you come off as a hater when you're always doing it. |
Rookie stats are meaningless. Not all players mature on the same rate. It's what what you do when you put it together and the physical attributes to get it done. There are so many factors on reaching that potential. No major injuries, great attitude and willingness to learn, love and passion for the game with impeccable work ethic, motivation and commitment and front office put the right players around you etc. I'm so glad that Magic weeded out expendable players and have Lonzo that reign and Ingram to be the go to guy with takeover ability like take over game over mode. Lonzo will set the pace and Ingram will be the closer. |
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SocalDevin
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Joined: 26 May 2016
Posts: 7825
Location: Long Beach
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| Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | SocalDevin wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | SocalDevin wrote: | This is In regards to Ingram this off-season..
“Anybody that called us wanted him,” Johnson said. “We said, ‘No thank you.'”
These GM's must be nuts to want a guy as terrible as Ingram was his rookie year. And stats prove he was god awful.. |
1) Ingram had a terrible rookie season.
2) Ingram has the potential to be a fantastic player.
Those two things can both be true at the same time. |
Yep, they can both be true, but some of you tend to harp on the negatives in regards to Ingram.
There's usually someone raining on the parade with rookie stats when we gush over him. Which is your or their prerogative. I just think it's silly, and it makes you come off as a hater when you're always doing it. |
Then don't call for a response by sarcastically noting "why would anyone want him if his rookie stats were so awful?" if you know that those are two different things.
I'm much more interested in getting it right rather than being right in the first place. When expectations are such that the guy who runs this team will be disappointed if he doesn't make a historically unprecedented leap in production, I'm fine standing on the other side of that line, and I really don't care if I come off as a hater. I'm certainly rooting for the kid, I just don't need to BS myself or others in the process. |
Thing is, I'm fine with you believing whatever it is you believe. I'm just saying I think it's silly, and makes no sense. No one is going to convince you otherwise, so I have no interest in trying to change your mind. My post wasn't a call for a response, If I wanted one from Ingram detractors I would simply address them directly. |
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SocalDevin
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Location: Long Beach
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| Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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We'll be having an Ingram party and someone will crash in.. "Hey Hey HEEEYYYY" Knock that shet off, look at his ft percentage, stop the music, stop the dancing, have you seen his lousy 3 point shooting percentage? Take your assis home lol..
And it's all good I guess, we all should be able to express dissent, but it's always the same argument with some of you. |
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MJST
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| Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | SocalDevin wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | SocalDevin wrote: | This is In regards to Ingram this off-season..
“Anybody that called us wanted him,” Johnson said. “We said, ‘No thank you.'”
These GM's must be nuts to want a guy as terrible as Ingram was his rookie year. And stats prove he was god awful.. |
1) Ingram had a terrible rookie season.
2) Ingram has the potential to be a fantastic player.
Those two things can both be true at the same time. |
Yep, they can both be true, but some of you tend to harp on the negatives in regards to Ingram.
There's usually someone raining on the parade with rookie stats when we gush over him. Which is your or their prerogative. I just think it's silly, and it makes you come off as a hater when you're always doing it. |
Then don't call for a response by sarcastically noting "why would anyone want him if his rookie stats were so awful?" if you know that those are two different things.
I'm much more interested in getting it right rather than being right in the first place. When expectations are such that the guy who runs this team will be disappointed if he doesn't make a historically unprecedented leap in production, I'm fine standing on the other side of that line, and I really don't care if I come off as a hater. I'm certainly rooting for the kid, I just don't need to BS myself or others in the process. |
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How NBA 2K18 failed the All-Time Lakers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxMBYm3wwxk |
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