Kyrie Irving wants to be traded.
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activeverb
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 3:41 pm    Post subject:

gr818 wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
gr818 wrote:

There is always pressure for a championship of a superstar. Maybe not as big of a microscope in Dallas, but people are scared to end up like Barkley. It is a challenge to do it without manufacturing a super team.


Exactly on the bolded, which is why comparing Dirk doesn't make much sense.


Cleveland was not under the same microscope either until the creation of the superteam. But still, LeBron felt the pressure of winning a ring and dipped out. It got too tough for him, so he manufactured his dream into a reality. If someone like that is considered an "alpha", so is Kyrie and Dirk


I'm curious. You keep using the term "alpha" to describe players, but it is not terminology that is commonly used so I have no idea what that means. Is an "alpha" player the best player on a team? Anyone who has made an all-star team? Anyone among the top 25% players in the league?

What exactly does "alpha" mean?
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:31 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
gr818 wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
gr818 wrote:

There is always pressure for a championship of a superstar. Maybe not as big of a microscope in Dallas, but people are scared to end up like Barkley. It is a challenge to do it without manufacturing a super team.


Exactly on the bolded, which is why comparing Dirk doesn't make much sense.


Cleveland was not under the same microscope either until the creation of the superteam. But still, LeBron felt the pressure of winning a ring and dipped out. It got too tough for him, so he manufactured his dream into a reality. If someone like that is considered an "alpha", so is Kyrie and Dirk


I'm curious. You keep using the term "alpha" to describe players, but it is not terminology that is commonly used so I have no idea what that means. Is an "alpha" player the best player on a team? Anyone who has made an all-star team? Anyone among the top 25% players in the league?

What exactly does "alpha" mean?


Opposite of LeBron James.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:36 pm    Post subject:

gr818 wrote:
activeverb wrote:
gr818 wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
gr818 wrote:

There is always pressure for a championship of a superstar. Maybe not as big of a microscope in Dallas, but people are scared to end up like Barkley. It is a challenge to do it without manufacturing a super team.


Exactly on the bolded, which is why comparing Dirk doesn't make much sense.


Cleveland was not under the same microscope either until the creation of the superteam. But still, LeBron felt the pressure of winning a ring and dipped out. It got too tough for him, so he manufactured his dream into a reality. If someone like that is considered an "alpha", so is Kyrie and Dirk


I'm curious. You keep using the term "alpha" to describe players, but it is not terminology that is commonly used so I have no idea what that means. Is an "alpha" player the best player on a team? Anyone who has made an all-star team? Anyone among the top 25% players in the league?

What exactly does "alpha" mean?


Opposite of LeBron James.



So it's just a vague buzzword, which you have no firm definition for, but you like to throw it around because you like the sound of the word?
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:46 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
gr818 wrote:
activeverb wrote:
gr818 wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
gr818 wrote:

There is always pressure for a championship of a superstar. Maybe not as big of a microscope in Dallas, but people are scared to end up like Barkley. It is a challenge to do it without manufacturing a super team.


Exactly on the bolded, which is why comparing Dirk doesn't make much sense.


Cleveland was not under the same microscope either until the creation of the superteam. But still, LeBron felt the pressure of winning a ring and dipped out. It got too tough for him, so he manufactured his dream into a reality. If someone like that is considered an "alpha", so is Kyrie and Dirk


I'm curious. You keep using the term "alpha" to describe players, but it is not terminology that is commonly used so I have no idea what that means. Is an "alpha" player the best player on a team? Anyone who has made an all-star team? Anyone among the top 25% players in the league?

What exactly does "alpha" mean?


Opposite of LeBron James.



So it's just a vague buzzword, which you have no firm definition for, but you like to throw it around because you like the sound of the word?


Wow. Within 5 minutes. Good job!

Just remember, the opposite of LeBron, OK?
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:48 pm    Post subject:

gr818 wrote:
activeverb wrote:
gr818 wrote:
activeverb wrote:
gr818 wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
gr818 wrote:

There is always pressure for a championship of a superstar. Maybe not as big of a microscope in Dallas, but people are scared to end up like Barkley. It is a challenge to do it without manufacturing a super team.


Exactly on the bolded, which is why comparing Dirk doesn't make much sense.


Cleveland was not under the same microscope either until the creation of the superteam. But still, LeBron felt the pressure of winning a ring and dipped out. It got too tough for him, so he manufactured his dream into a reality. If someone like that is considered an "alpha", so is Kyrie and Dirk


I'm curious. You keep using the term "alpha" to describe players, but it is not terminology that is commonly used so I have no idea what that means. Is an "alpha" player the best player on a team? Anyone who has made an all-star team? Anyone among the top 25% players in the league?

What exactly does "alpha" mean?


Opposite of LeBron James.



So it's just a vague buzzword, which you have no firm definition for, but you like to throw it around because you like the sound of the word?


Wow. Within 5 minutes. Good job!

Just remember, the opposite of LeBron, OK?



I get it: Your only point is you dislike Lebron and you want to recycle all the greatest hits, like insisting his rings shouldn't count because he used free agency to join with good players. Have fun.


Last edited by activeverb on Tue Aug 01, 2017 9:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:05 pm    Post subject:

gr818 wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
gr818 wrote:

There is always pressure for a championship of a superstar. Maybe not as big of a microscope in Dallas, but people are scared to end up like Barkley. It is a challenge to do it without manufacturing a super team.


Exactly on the bolded, which is why comparing Dirk doesn't make much sense.


Cleveland was not under the same microscope either until the creation of the superteam. But still, LeBron felt the pressure of winning a ring and dipped out. It got too tough for him, so he manufactured his dream into a reality. If someone like that is considered an "alpha", so is Kyrie and Dirk


LeBron has been under that type of microscope since he entered the league. Dirk has never deal with the type of expectations that he has.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 5:08 pm    Post subject:

http://nba.nbcsports.com/2017/08/07/former-cavalier-ron-harper-describes-kyrie-irvings-trade-request-as-youth-ignorance/

Quote:
Former Cavalier Ron Harper describes Kyrie Irving’s trade request as “youth, ignorance”

Former Cavaliers GM David Griffin called Kyrie Irving‘s trade request “courageous.” Griffin credited Irving for not just going along with everything and pretending to be happy, then “sinking the ship from within.”

Griffin’s comment was a response to former Cavaliers guard and five-time NBA champion Ron Harper’s comments on the Irving trade request to Marla Ridenour of the Akron Beacon Journal.

“Youth. Ignorance,” Harper said Sunday of Irving, 25, after signing autographs at the legends booth on Cavs day at the $9.75 million World Golf Championships-Bridgestone Invitational at Firestone Country Club.

“When I used to play on bad teams and you trained all off-season to play 82 games, you get to the first round and you lose. You’re guaranteed to play till June. The East is good, but you know that you’re the best basketball team,” Harper said. “I don’t really understand what’s behind it…

“It’s not a guarantee that the Cavaliers are going to trade him to a good team,” Harper said. “I asked a guy, ‘What happened to the old-school days?’ When a guy asked to get traded, you traded him to the sorriest team. That’s the way it worked.”

Many former NBA players feel the way Harper does, and a lot of us in Irving’s shoes would probably stay in Cleveland and chase the ring. However, I’ve got no problem with players taking control of their own destiny — if star players want to team up to try to win, and they can push for that/control it through free agency, more power to them. They need not be just hapless employees subject to the whims of GMs and owners (who would not be loyal to them, players get traded when it’s convenient for management).

Irving wants out — most likely because he knows LeBron James likely wouldn’t be loyal to him next summer and Irving wanted to be proactive. He may not land in his desired location, but Irving is trying to control his own fate.

He’s just trying to walk away from a situation a lot of players would love to be in, so there is backlash.
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:15 pm    Post subject:

I get the impression that other teams are waiting out the Cavs. This reminds me of us in the summer of 2007, only Kyrie Irving ain't no Kobe.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:05 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
I get the impression that other teams are waiting out the Cavs. This reminds me of us in the summer of 2007, only Kyrie Irving ain't no Kobe.



I don't know that the Cavs will fold, though. My guess is training camp will start with Irving still on the team.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:04 pm    Post subject:

Ron Harper wrote:
'What happened to the old-school days?’ When a guy asked to get traded, you traded him to the sorriest team. That’s the way it worked.”


Those damn Clipper days.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:12 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
I get the impression that other teams are waiting out the Cavs. This reminds me of us in the summer of 2007, only Kyrie Irving ain't no Kobe.



I don't know that the Cavs will fold, though. My guess is training camp will start with Irving still on the team.


That's a reasonable guess. The Cavs have put themselves in an awkward situation because they have zero control over the Lebron situation.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:29 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:


That's a reasonable guess. The Cavs have put themselves in an awkward situation because they have zero control over the Lebron situation.


Exactly.

I am huge on LeBron as a player and a person, I think he is a good guy overall and obviously an all time great player.

But his way of controlling his own situation does hold his team hostage and I don't blame Kyrie for not wanting to be stuck on a potentially bad team when/if LeBron decides to make his next move and do what is best for him.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:18 am    Post subject:

LakerLanny wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:


That's a reasonable guess. The Cavs have put themselves in an awkward situation because they have zero control over the Lebron situation.


Exactly.

I am huge on LeBron as a player and a person, I think he is a good guy overall and obviously an all time great player.

But his way of controlling his own situation does hold his team hostage and I don't blame Kyrie for not wanting to be stuck on a potentially bad team when/if LeBron decides to make his next move and do what is best for him.


Yeah. I think it's equal parts of not wanting to play/be 2nd fiddle to LBJ, and also not wanting to be stuck on the Cavs if/when LBJ leaves next season.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:40 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
LakerLanny wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:


That's a reasonable guess. The Cavs have put themselves in an awkward situation because they have zero control over the Lebron situation.


Exactly.

I am huge on LeBron as a player and a person, I think he is a good guy overall and obviously an all time great player.

But his way of controlling his own situation does hold his team hostage and I don't blame Kyrie for not wanting to be stuck on a potentially bad team when/if LeBron decides to make his next move and do what is best for him.


Yeah. I think it's equal parts of not wanting to play/be 2nd fiddle to LBJ, and also not wanting to be stuck on the Cavs if/when LBJ leaves next season.



I think its 99% not wanting to play second fiddle to Lebron rather than concern about being a bad team. If the Cavs trade him, it's quite likely he'll end up on a worse team. And if Lebron leaves, Irving can become a free agent just a year later, so it's not like he's shackled there for years.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:43 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
LakerLanny wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:


That's a reasonable guess. The Cavs have put themselves in an awkward situation because they have zero control over the Lebron situation.


Exactly.

I am huge on LeBron as a player and a person, I think he is a good guy overall and obviously an all time great player.

But his way of controlling his own situation does hold his team hostage and I don't blame Kyrie for not wanting to be stuck on a potentially bad team when/if LeBron decides to make his next move and do what is best for him.


Yeah. I think it's equal parts of not wanting to play/be 2nd fiddle to LBJ, and also not wanting to be stuck on the Cavs if/when LBJ leaves next season.



I think its 99% not wanting to play second fiddle to Lebron rather than concern about being a bad team. If the Cavs trade him, it's quite likely he'll end up on a worse team. And if Lebron leaves, Irving can become a free agent just a year later, so it's not like he's shackled there for years.

Maybe. But if LBJ leaves and he's stuck there and the team likely fails to make the playoffs, that will hurt his value going forward. I think he wants to bolt regardless so that he won't be the one who failed to get the Cavs into the playoffs post LBJ.
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2 Max Scenarios:

-JC out for $0/Deng stretched = 57.6m in 2018 cap space
-Same as above and Jules renounced/traded for $0 = 69.9m in 2018 cap space

2 out of these players will be a Laker in 2018 (LBJ/PG13/Boogie)
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:45 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
activeverb wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
I get the impression that other teams are waiting out the Cavs. This reminds me of us in the summer of 2007, only Kyrie Irving ain't no Kobe.



I don't know that the Cavs will fold, though. My guess is training camp will start with Irving still on the team.


That's a reasonable guess. The Cavs have put themselves in an awkward situation because they have zero control over the Lebron situation.



That's the devil's bargain a team makes with Lebron. He'll get as many outs in his contract as he can; he'll always pressure you to improve; and he won't hesitate to move on if he's unhappy.

It's kind of the new face of the NBA superstar. He's not an employee; he doesn't think of the team "owner" as being in charge. Lebron sees the team more like a famous actor sees his agent -- the actor is in charge and it's the agent's (team's) job to put him in a good situation, or the agent (team) gets fired.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:55 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
But if LBJ leaves and he's stuck there and the team likely fails to make the playoffs, that will hurt his value going forward. I think he wants to bolt regardless so that he won't be the one who failed to get the Cavs into the playoffs post LBJ.


I don't think his value would be hurt -- no matter what, they'll be teams lining up to pay him the max.

Being left holding the bag after Lebron left may be a secondary concern for him. But wanting to be a #1 guy is the primary motivation.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:00 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
But if LBJ leaves and he's stuck there and the team likely fails to make the playoffs, that will hurt his value going forward. I think he wants to bolt regardless so that he won't be the one who failed to get the Cavs into the playoffs post LBJ.


I don't think his value would be hurt -- no matter what, they'll be teams lining up to pay him the max.

Being left holding the bag after Lebron left may be a secondary concern for him. But wanting to be a #1 guy is the primary motivation.


I'm still not convinced Irving is a guy you build a team around. Excellent #2 guy who isn't effective enough to carry a team through the regular season.

Spectacular post season player, assuming you have a stud as your #1 guy.
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2 Max Scenarios:

-JC out for $0/Deng stretched = 57.6m in 2018 cap space
-Same as above and Jules renounced/traded for $0 = 69.9m in 2018 cap space

2 out of these players will be a Laker in 2018 (LBJ/PG13/Boogie)
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:12 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
activeverb wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
But if LBJ leaves and he's stuck there and the team likely fails to make the playoffs, that will hurt his value going forward. I think he wants to bolt regardless so that he won't be the one who failed to get the Cavs into the playoffs post LBJ.


I don't think his value would be hurt -- no matter what, they'll be teams lining up to pay him the max.

Being left holding the bag after Lebron left may be a secondary concern for him. But wanting to be a #1 guy is the primary motivation.


I'm still not convinced Irving is a guy you build a team around. Excellent #2 guy who isn't effective enough to carry a team through the regular season.

Spectacular post season player, assuming you have a stud as your #1 guy.



I don't think he's a guy you can build a championship team around.

But he thinks he is; and I suspect some team will be willing to build around him, because he's a marketable star and there are 30 teams and only a few Lebrons, Durants, and Currys out there.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:46 pm    Post subject:

Basketball Fan wrote:
http://nba.nbcsports.com/2017/08/07/former-cavalier-ron-harper-describes-kyrie-irvings-trade-request-as-youth-ignorance/

Quote:
Former Cavalier Ron Harper describes Kyrie Irving’s trade request as “youth, ignorance”

Former Cavaliers GM David Griffin called Kyrie Irving‘s trade request “courageous.” Griffin credited Irving for not just going along with everything and pretending to be happy, then “sinking the ship from within.”

Griffin’s comment was a response to former Cavaliers guard and five-time NBA champion Ron Harper’s comments on the Irving trade request to Marla Ridenour of the Akron Beacon Journal.

“Youth. Ignorance,” Harper said Sunday of Irving, 25, after signing autographs at the legends booth on Cavs day at the $9.75 million World Golf Championships-Bridgestone Invitational at Firestone Country Club.

“When I used to play on bad teams and you trained all off-season to play 82 games, you get to the first round and you lose. You’re guaranteed to play till June. The East is good, but you know that you’re the best basketball team,” Harper said. “I don’t really understand what’s behind it…

“It’s not a guarantee that the Cavaliers are going to trade him to a good team,” Harper said. “I asked a guy, ‘What happened to the old-school days?’ When a guy asked to get traded, you traded him to the sorriest team. That’s the way it worked.”

Many former NBA players feel the way Harper does, and a lot of us in Irving’s shoes would probably stay in Cleveland and chase the ring. However, I’ve got no problem with players taking control of their own destiny — if star players want to team up to try to win, and they can push for that/control it through free agency, more power to them. They need not be just hapless employees subject to the whims of GMs and owners (who would not be loyal to them, players get traded when it’s convenient for management).

Irving wants out — most likely because he knows LeBron James likely wouldn’t be loyal to him next summer and Irving wanted to be proactive. He may not land in his desired location, but Irving is trying to control his own fate.

He’s just trying to walk away from a situation a lot of players would love to be in, so there is backlash.


Only Irving doesn't control his own destiny.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:23 pm    Post subject:

https://youtu.be/6wh01uslfy4

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:09 pm    Post subject:

http://nba.nbcsports.com/2017/08/16/rumor-lebron-james-and-kyrie-irving-met-in-miami/

Quote:

Rumor: LeBron James and Kyrie Irving met in Miami


LeBron James denied wanting to fight Kyrie Irving, but wanting to meet with his for-now Cavaliers co-star? That might be another story. Likewise, Irving – in light of his trade request – might not be eager to meet with LeBron.

But…

Tony Rizzo of ESPN Cleveland, as transcribed by Jackson Flickinger of King James Gospel:

“From very reliable sources. Plural. Kyrie and LeBron were in the same room over the weekend in Florida…Apparently these guys were in the same room and here’s the deal. I don’t know if there’s a thawing out process. All I do know is LeBron didn’t punch Kyrie the way Stephen A thought he would. I can report that. As for what they talked about or discussed…it was very cool. They didn’t get into any heated discussions.”

Did LeBron and Irving actually meet? Both were spotted in Miami, but maybe someone is just connecting dots that don’t belong connected.

Whether or not LeBron and Irving met, they might need to soon. Cleveland will have a tough time getting its desired return for Irving before the season, and Cavs owner Dan Gilbert discussed the possibility of Irving returning. LeBron isn’t getting traded.

No matter the disconnect between the two, LeBron and Irving might have to figure out how to work together a while longer. It’d be nice if that process has already begun.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:35 am    Post subject:

I'm pretty sure Kobe faced all the same criticism when he wanted to part ways with Shaq including a litany of doubters who thought he wouldn't be able to win titles by himself. And for years many were right, the Kobe led lakers were pretty horrible for a while.

Not saying it's the same situation but in an era of super teams it's refreshing to still see someone who wants to continue to grow and build his own legacy.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:42 am    Post subject:

1hu2ren3dui4 wrote:
I'm pretty sure Kobe faced all the same criticism when he wanted to part ways with Shaq including a litany of doubters who thought he wouldn't be able to win titles by himself. And for years many were right, the Kobe led lakers were pretty horrible for a while.

Not saying it's the same situation but in an era of super teams it's refreshing to still see someone who wants to continue to grow and build his own legacy.


I agree.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:18 am    Post subject:

vanexelent wrote:
1hu2ren3dui4 wrote:
I'm pretty sure Kobe faced all the same criticism when he wanted to part ways with Shaq including a litany of doubters who thought he wouldn't be able to win titles by himself. And for years many were right, the Kobe led lakers were pretty horrible for a while.

Not saying it's the same situation but in an era of super teams it's refreshing to still see someone who wants to continue to grow and build his own legacy.


I agree.


they were only bad for 1st yr post shaq year, decent the next year and power house year 3
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