Cal State universities eliminate placement exams and remedial classes for freshmen

 
Post new topic    LakersGround.net Forum Index -> Off Topic Reply to topic
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Huey Lewis & The News
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 18 Dec 2015
Posts: 2453
Location: So what's the uh...topic of discussion?

PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:49 pm    Post subject: Cal State universities eliminate placement exams and remedial classes for freshmen

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-cal-state-remedial-requirements-20170803-story.html

commence the dumbening
_________________
"All wars are civil wars, because all men are brothers."
http://forums.lakersground.net/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=13018
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
lakersken80
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 12 Aug 2009
Posts: 27368

PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:09 pm    Post subject:

If kids can't do algebra after exiting high school how are they going to pass that entrance exam to college?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Huey Lewis & The News
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 18 Dec 2015
Posts: 2453
Location: So what's the uh...topic of discussion?

PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:11 pm    Post subject:

lakersken80 wrote:
If kids can't do algebra after exiting high school how are they going to pass that entrance exam to college?


next step is to eliminate the unit minimum for graduation
_________________
"All wars are civil wars, because all men are brothers."
http://forums.lakersground.net/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=13018
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
LakerSanity
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 30 Nov 2006
Posts: 28968
Location: Long Beach, California

PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Cal State universities eliminate placement exams and remedial classes for freshmen

Huey Lewis & The News wrote:
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-cal-state-remedial-requirements-20170803-story.html

commence the dumbening


Students would still have to pass the required minimum Math and English classes to graduate, so there aren't any real requirements being eliminated. Rather, all this approach does is potentially eliminate classes that do not count toward anything, i.e. the classes which are supposed to prepare students to take the minimum requisite English and Math classes that they will eventually have to take to graduate.

Instead of requiring that students spend time and money on remedial classes that don't actually earn them credits toward graduation, the Cal State schools are trying to create a system that would somehow prepare students for the requisite math/english classes along the way, while also preserving the requirements to graduate, all in hopes of allowing students to graduate faster. If the schools can prep students for these required math/English classes at the same time the students earn real credits, it makes sense to do so. It may be the case that if a student can take courses toward their specific degree which do not require the math and/or English class that they are not yet ready to take, those classes themselves could prepare that student to eventually take and pass the requisite English/Math classes later into their college career that they aren't yet ready to take/pass as freshmen all the while moving them toward graduating with their chosen degrees more quickly than they are now.

That sounds nice, but I'm not sure if it would work. The first problem is that, while moving through the requirements of a student's degree, students rather quickly hit classes they must take which require that they first pass those basic English or math classes to even enroll in that class. For example, for most social sciences, that would be a statistics course of some kind (usually a lower division one and then an upper division one thereafter). So do schools start eliminating all pre-requisites, even those within the track for a specific degree/field? Probably not. This makes no mention of the fact that, if the student is really that far behind in English/Math skills, they may not even be able to pass any basic classes even if such classes do not have any English/math prerequisites (although that is unlikely because I doubt one can get into any decent college without having at least some basic math/english skills as proven by the ACT/SAT).

This all leads to the second point. Much like lower division classes before upper division classes, the idea of the remedial courses is to build a knowledge base and prepare students for more demanding/specific study all to prevent students from having to take the harder courses (among other degree-specific English/Math courses) multiple times as a result of not being prepared. While the Cal State schools' entire objective is to ensure more students are graduating in 4 years, rather than 5 or 6 years, that objective cannot be achieved if students have to take the same classes multiple times due to failing them. Where students have to take the same classes twice or three times, the entire purpose of eliminating remedial courses is defeated - students would spend the same time in school, if not more, while proving that the remedial courses were actually needed all along.

The reality is that colleges are being asked more and more to make up for the failings of elementary school, middle school and high school education. This solution seems to be addressing the symptom of that problem, rather than the problem itself. Unfortunately, there is no short cut to making a student more well prepared. The only recourse is actually teaching them, whether that be before college or in college. If our pre-college educational system cannot be improved, maybe a middle ground is needed - boost up the availability and effectiveness of junior colleges. If a student doesn't have the skills for college yet, defer their enrollment to that 4 year institution for a year and require that they take certain classes at a junior college (thereby saving them some money, even if you aren't always saving them time). Junior colleges are being underutilized as is, so they could be a solution.
_________________
LakersGround's Terms of Service
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
angrypuppy
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 13 Apr 2001
Posts: 30387

PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:53 am    Post subject:

A 19% graduation rate is horrendous, and a throughput where students spend more than five years is an unacceptable drain on resources. For those who work, there has to be a stretch plan to get them through.

This is a failure of public education on multiple levels. In the end, the better question becomes, "How do you wish to tier the system towards results, and how will you fund it?". This is a problem that affects the structure and funding of all public schools, from elementary to college in every state. Not only will this take vision, it will take a degree of political and social maturity to accept the findings.

For what it's worth, I'm probably full of hot air, as the system is correcting itself on the public college level. The admissions profile at publicly funded colleges has climbed at an impressive rate. Private schools have lost favor, due to both cost and impracticality (the perceived benefits of a liberal arts education have cratered). With better GPAs and SAT scores, I would imagine that the need for remedial classes will wane.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
hellsling
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 1823

PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:44 am    Post subject:

I wonder how much of the 19% of the students graduating in 4 years is the result of the increase in students being admitted to the CSU system and the CSU system not having enough teachers and classes to accommodate them. I've been hearing more and more stories of students unable to get into their required major classes and having to delay their graduation dates a year later.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Raijin
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 08 Feb 2009
Posts: 6356

PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 6:59 pm    Post subject:

angrypuppy wrote:
A 19% graduation rate is horrendous, and a throughput where students spend more than five years is an unacceptable drain on resources. For those who work, there has to be a stretch plan to get them through.

This is a failure of public education on multiple levels. In the end, the better question becomes, "How do you wish to tier the system towards results, and how will you fund it?". This is a problem that affects the structure and funding of all public schools, from elementary to college in every state. Not only will this take vision, it will take a degree of political and social maturity to accept the findings.

For what it's worth, I'm probably full of hot air, as the system is correcting itself on the public college level. The admissions profile at publicly funded colleges has climbed at an impressive rate. Private schools have lost favor, due to both cost and impracticality (the perceived benefits of a liberal arts education have cratered). With better GPAs and SAT scores, I would imagine that the need for remedial classes will wane.

I wholeheartedly disagree. Public education is good if you/your parents decide your education is a priority. Blame the parents
_________________
"It was tough," Kobe Bryant said. "But when it got really tough for me, I just checked myself in."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
non-player zealot
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 16262

PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 1:02 am    Post subject:

I remember doing peer corrections/reviews of other kids' papers in undergrad and some were pretty embarrassing to read, even as a fellow student. One kid from my freshman hall sounded particularly incoherent and he wound up walking with the rest of us on time. Not that guy 2.0 level surgery brain incoherent. More LA_Lakers_Rule regarding Trump incoherent.
_________________
GOAT MAGIC REEL

"My reaction to everything you post is basically 'Amen'." -VegasLakerFan
"Glad to play a small role in the growing legend of NPZ." -DancingBarry
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Huey Lewis & The News
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 18 Dec 2015
Posts: 2453
Location: So what's the uh...topic of discussion?

PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 1:14 am    Post subject:

non-player zealot wrote:
I remember doing peer corrections/reviews of other kids' papers in undergrad and some were pretty embarrassing to read, even as a fellow student. One kid from my freshman hall sounded particularly incoherent and he wound up walking with the rest of us on time. Not that guy 2.0 level surgery brain incoherent. More LA_Lakers_Rule regarding Trump incoherent.


a icon
_________________
"All wars are civil wars, because all men are brothers."
http://forums.lakersground.net/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=13018
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Raijin
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 08 Feb 2009
Posts: 6356

PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 6:44 am    Post subject:

I don't really see the necessity of having strong college level writing skills for certain careers. For example, the extent of writing a nurse will have to do is a brief 3-5 line summary of why a patient is coming into the hospital or how a patient's condition has progressed through the night. Heck, most of the time the message above is communicated verbally. The 3-5 line summary does not even need to be in complete sentences.

Pt was noted to be altered at 7AM
Pt also had a 103 fever
Pt is normally A&Ox3

or

Pt vomited 5 times last night
None of the vomit was bloody or green
Feels weak and nauseous

These notes could just be bullet points. No one's going to care if there are grammar errors or if the message above is listed in bullet points.

Why do the majority of students need to know calculus? How many college graduates on this board(non-engineer careers) have had to use derivatives at any point in their careers? These requirements are onerous and nonsensical and I believe we should be moving away from them.
_________________
"It was tough," Kobe Bryant said. "But when it got really tough for me, I just checked myself in."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
angrypuppy
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 13 Apr 2001
Posts: 30387

PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:38 am    Post subject:

Raijin wrote:
angrypuppy wrote:
A 19% graduation rate is horrendous, and a throughput where students spend more than five years is an unacceptable drain on resources. For those who work, there has to be a stretch plan to get them through.

This is a failure of public education on multiple levels. In the end, the better question becomes, "How do you wish to tier the system towards results, and how will you fund it?". This is a problem that affects the structure and funding of all public schools, from elementary to college in every state. Not only will this take vision, it will take a degree of political and social maturity to accept the findings.

For what it's worth, I'm probably full of hot air, as the system is correcting itself on the public college level. The admissions profile at publicly funded colleges has climbed at an impressive rate. Private schools have lost favor, due to both cost and impracticality (the perceived benefits of a liberal arts education have cratered). With better GPAs and SAT scores, I would imagine that the need for remedial classes will wane.

I wholeheartedly disagree. Public education is good if you/your parents decide your education is a priority. Blame the parents



I was discussing the structure, mission, and goals of public education. Part of the challenge, be it educator or parent, is teaching the students to understand the context of a written argument.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
non-player zealot
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 16262

PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 9:42 am    Post subject:

Huey Lewis & The News wrote:
non-player zealot wrote:
I remember doing peer corrections/reviews of other kids' papers in undergrad and some were pretty embarrassing to read, even as a fellow student. One kid from my freshman hall sounded particularly incoherent and he wound up walking with the rest of us on time. Not that guy 2.0 level surgery brain incoherent. More LA_Lakers_Rule regarding Trump incoherent.


a icon


I wan to take Batt to (Player X's) head!1 . Batt is for Playeing Base-Ball and for Hitteing things. l;

Dont jump on the Bang-wagon. .. .
;
_________________
GOAT MAGIC REEL

"My reaction to everything you post is basically 'Amen'." -VegasLakerFan
"Glad to play a small role in the growing legend of NPZ." -DancingBarry
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
angrypuppy
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 13 Apr 2001
Posts: 30387

PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 9:53 am    Post subject:

It isn't just public schools that produce deficient writers. I once hired this Boston University graduate who wanted to go to law school. She'd cobble together long paragraphs, comprised of a single, run on sentence. I tried coaching her, but afterward she produced paragraphs that were four or five sentences in length, with each sentence a random thought, unrelated to the preceding sentences.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
jonnybravo
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 21 Sep 2007
Posts: 22670

PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 12:53 pm    Post subject:

Raijin wrote:
I don't really see the necessity of having strong college level writing skills for certain careers. For example, the extent of writing a nurse will have to do is a brief 3-5 line summary of why a patient is coming into the hospital or how a patient's condition has progressed through the night. Heck, most of the time the message above is communicated verbally. The 3-5 line summary does not even need to be in complete sentences.

Pt was noted to be altered at 7AM
Pt also had a 103 fever
Pt is normally A&Ox3

or

Pt vomited 5 times last night
None of the vomit was bloody or green
Feels weak and nauseous

These notes could just be bullet points. No one's going to care if there are grammar errors or if the message above is listed in bullet points.

Why do the majority of students need to know calculus? How many college graduates on this board(non-engineer careers) have had to use derivatives at any point in their careers? These requirements are onerous and nonsensical and I believe we should be moving away from them.


No offense but that can literally be argued about every single class in college (non-CS/engineering of course) and how they pertain to the real world. That's not a reason not to require some of those classes. It's called an education for a reason.
_________________
All Aboard the Paul George 2018 Train. CHOO CHOO!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Raijin
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 08 Feb 2009
Posts: 6356

PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 6:05 pm    Post subject:

jonnybravo wrote:
Raijin wrote:
I don't really see the necessity of having strong college level writing skills for certain careers. For example, the extent of writing a nurse will have to do is a brief 3-5 line summary of why a patient is coming into the hospital or how a patient's condition has progressed through the night. Heck, most of the time the message above is communicated verbally. The 3-5 line summary does not even need to be in complete sentences.

Pt was noted to be altered at 7AM
Pt also had a 103 fever
Pt is normally A&Ox3

or

Pt vomited 5 times last night
None of the vomit was bloody or green
Feels weak and nauseous

These notes could just be bullet points. No one's going to care if there are grammar errors or if the message above is listed in bullet points.

Why do the majority of students need to know calculus? How many college graduates on this board(non-engineer careers) have had to use derivatives at any point in their careers? These requirements are onerous and nonsensical and I believe we should be moving away from them.


No offense but that can literally be argued about every single class in college (non-CS/engineering of course) and how they pertain to the real world. That's not a reason not to require some of those classes. It's called an education for a reason.

Not everyone needs to be well rounded to succeed in their chosen careers. If a student decides they would benefit from a more well rounded education that should be his or her option, not an obligation.

Also, I disagree that CS/engineering are the only majors with courses applicable to the real world. I would think an accounting course would be necessary to function as a decent accountant in the real world. Understanding, GAAP and non GAAP, LIFO and FIFO, and other concepts are very much important to that career. Furthermore, knowing what chemicals are dangerous and what reactions can occur when different chemicals are mixed when chemicals are exposed to air would be pretty damn important for a lab safety manager.
_________________
"It was tough," Kobe Bryant said. "But when it got really tough for me, I just checked myself in."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
splashmtn
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 30 Aug 2016
Posts: 1157

PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:01 am    Post subject:

jonnybravo wrote:
Raijin wrote:
I don't really see the necessity of having strong college level writing skills for certain careers. For example, the extent of writing a nurse will have to do is a brief 3-5 line summary of why a patient is coming into the hospital or how a patient's condition has progressed through the night. Heck, most of the time the message above is communicated verbally. The 3-5 line summary does not even need to be in complete sentences.

Pt was noted to be altered at 7AM
Pt also had a 103 fever
Pt is normally A&Ox3

or

Pt vomited 5 times last night
None of the vomit was bloody or green
Feels weak and nauseous

These notes could just be bullet points. No one's going to care if there are grammar errors or if the message above is listed in bullet points.

Why do the majority of students need to know calculus? How many college graduates on this board(non-engineer careers) have had to use derivatives at any point in their careers? These requirements are onerous and nonsensical and I believe we should be moving away from them.


No offense but that can literally be argued about every single class in college (non-CS/engineering of course) and how they pertain to the real world. That's not a reason not to require some of those classes. It's called an education for a reason.


and there lies the problem.

there should be two tracks.

the "All inclusive education" track. and no you dont get a gold star on your degree for taking this track. no one knows that you did it except for you. Since you are the one that choose to be educated in all subjects not even pertaining to what you are getting your degree in. thats you choice. no special kudos for it.


The second track is the No BS Degree. We give you everything you NEED and no Fluff or other subjects. again both degrees on paper look identical.


iF the person with the first type of degree gets further in his/her career(s) so be it. But until that data is captured. I aint buying it.

Aside from political science which is something you need to have already taken in high school before you are of voting age. The rest of that fluff can be left on the table for those that just want to learn about all sorts of things. good for them. perhaps they have more money to pay for such courses. There is a large portion of college students who do not have the funds to mess around with courses they really dont need that most likely will not benefit their career aspirations or increase their bottom line once they get a job/career.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
nickuku
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 09 Jul 2010
Posts: 4185
Location: Orange County

PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:07 am    Post subject:

splashmtn wrote:
jonnybravo wrote:
Raijin wrote:
I don't really see the necessity of having strong college level writing skills for certain careers. For example, the extent of writing a nurse will have to do is a brief 3-5 line summary of why a patient is coming into the hospital or how a patient's condition has progressed through the night. Heck, most of the time the message above is communicated verbally. The 3-5 line summary does not even need to be in complete sentences.

Pt was noted to be altered at 7AM
Pt also had a 103 fever
Pt is normally A&Ox3

or

Pt vomited 5 times last night
None of the vomit was bloody or green
Feels weak and nauseous

These notes could just be bullet points. No one's going to care if there are grammar errors or if the message above is listed in bullet points.

Why do the majority of students need to know calculus? How many college graduates on this board(non-engineer careers) have had to use derivatives at any point in their careers? These requirements are onerous and nonsensical and I believe we should be moving away from them.


No offense but that can literally be argued about every single class in college (non-CS/engineering of course) and how they pertain to the real world. That's not a reason not to require some of those classes. It's called an education for a reason.


and there lies the problem.

there should be two tracks.

the "All inclusive education" track. and no you dont get a gold star on your degree for taking this track. no one knows that you did it except for you. Since you are the one that choose to be educated in all subjects not even pertaining to what you are getting your degree in. thats you choice. no special kudos for it.


The second track is the No BS Degree. We give you everything you NEED and no Fluff or other subjects. again both degrees on paper look identical.


iF the person with the first type of degree gets further in his/her career(s) so be it. But until that data is captured. I aint buying it.

Aside from political science which is something you need to have already taken in high school before you are of voting age. The rest of that fluff can be left on the table for those that just want to learn about all sorts of things. good for them. perhaps they have more money to pay for such courses. There is a large portion of college students who do not have the funds to mess around with courses they really dont need that most likely will not benefit their career aspirations or increase their bottom line once they get a job/career.


We already have a form of that in vocational schools.

Back on the subject I don't know anyone who hasn't benefited in the real world from college level writing.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
splashmtn
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 30 Aug 2016
Posts: 1157

PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:11 am    Post subject: Re: Cal State universities eliminate placement exams and remedial classes for freshmen

LakerSanity wrote:
Huey Lewis & The News wrote:
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-cal-state-remedial-requirements-20170803-story.html

commence the dumbening


Students would still have to pass the required minimum Math and English classes to graduate, so there aren't any real requirements being eliminated. Rather, all this approach does is potentially eliminate classes that do not count toward anything, i.e. the classes which are supposed to prepare students to take the minimum requisite English and Math classes that they will eventually have to take to graduate.

Instead of requiring that students spend time and money on remedial classes that don't actually earn them credits toward graduation, the Cal State schools are trying to create a system that would somehow prepare students for the requisite math/english classes along the way, while also preserving the requirements to graduate, all in hopes of allowing students to graduate faster. If the schools can prep students for these required math/English classes at the same time the students earn real credits, it makes sense to do so. It may be the case that if a student can take courses toward their specific degree which do not require the math and/or English class that they are not yet ready to take, those classes themselves could prepare that student to eventually take and pass the requisite English/Math classes later into their college career that they aren't yet ready to take/pass as freshmen all the while moving them toward graduating with their chosen degrees more quickly than they are now.

That sounds nice, but I'm not sure if it would work. The first problem is that, while moving through the requirements of a student's degree, students rather quickly hit classes they must take which require that they first pass those basic English or math classes to even enroll in that class. For example, for most social sciences, that would be a statistics course of some kind (usually a lower division one and then an upper division one thereafter). So do schools start eliminating all pre-requisites, even those within the track for a specific degree/field? Probably not. This makes no mention of the fact that, if the student is really that far behind in English/Math skills, they may not even be able to pass any basic classes even if such classes do not have any English/math prerequisites (although that is unlikely because I doubt one can get into any decent college without having at least some basic math/english skills as proven by the ACT/SAT).

This all leads to the second point. Much like lower division classes before upper division classes, the idea of the remedial courses is to build a knowledge base and prepare students for more demanding/specific study all to prevent students from having to take the harder courses (among other degree-specific English/Math courses) multiple times as a result of not being prepared. While the Cal State schools' entire objective is to ensure more students are graduating in 4 years, rather than 5 or 6 years, that objective cannot be achieved if students have to take the same classes multiple times due to failing them. Where students have to take the same classes twice or three times, the entire purpose of eliminating remedial courses is defeated - students would spend the same time in school, if not more, while proving that the remedial courses were actually needed all along.

The reality is that colleges are being asked more and more to make up for the failings of elementary school, middle school and high school education. This solution seems to be addressing the symptom of that problem, rather than the problem itself. Unfortunately, there is no short cut to making a student more well prepared. The only recourse is actually teaching them, whether that be before college or in college. If our pre-college educational system cannot be improved, maybe a middle ground is needed - boost up the availability and effectiveness of junior colleges. If a student doesn't have the skills for college yet, defer their enrollment to that 4 year institution for a year and require that they take certain classes at a junior college (thereby saving them some money, even if you aren't always saving them time). Junior colleges are being underutilized as is, so they could be a solution.
excellent points. in addition, this came about because of two issues. you have two types of students that are told to take remedial courses.

1. The types that know they are struggling in those areas and dont mind taking these classes to get their fundamentals together.

2. The types that didnt test well in the math/english exams before you start your freshman year. But they have already shown in High school they have grades of B or higher in these same courses and if they were placed into the normal freshman Comp and the first legit math class they would pass that with a C or better.

When #2 finds out they have to take remedial courses that will cost them more money and take longer with no actual credit. a lot of them quit school altogether.

Now there is a catch to the #2's. we know all high school are not created equal. nor are teachers. which means your A+ in english at a bad school could be a D once you take freshman Comp.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
splashmtn
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 30 Aug 2016
Posts: 1157

PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:32 am    Post subject:

..wrong thread for that post

Last edited by splashmtn on Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:32 pm; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
splashmtn
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 30 Aug 2016
Posts: 1157

PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:22 pm    Post subject:

nickuku wrote:
splashmtn wrote:
jonnybravo wrote:
Raijin wrote:
I don't really see the necessity of having strong college level writing skills for certain careers. For example, the extent of writing a nurse will have to do is a brief 3-5 line summary of why a patient is coming into the hospital or how a patient's condition has progressed through the night. Heck, most of the time the message above is communicated verbally. The 3-5 line summary does not even need to be in complete sentences.

Pt was noted to be altered at 7AM
Pt also had a 103 fever
Pt is normally A&Ox3

or

Pt vomited 5 times last night
None of the vomit was bloody or green
Feels weak and nauseous

These notes could just be bullet points. No one's going to care if there are grammar errors or if the message above is listed in bullet points.

Why do the majority of students need to know calculus? How many college graduates on this board(non-engineer careers) have had to use derivatives at any point in their careers? These requirements are onerous and nonsensical and I believe we should be moving away from them.


No offense but that can literally be argued about every single class in college (non-CS/engineering of course) and how they pertain to the real world. That's not a reason not to require some of those classes. It's called an education for a reason.


and there lies the problem.

there should be two tracks.

the "All inclusive education" track. and no you dont get a gold star on your degree for taking this track. no one knows that you did it except for you. Since you are the one that choose to be educated in all subjects not even pertaining to what you are getting your degree in. thats you choice. no special kudos for it.


The second track is the No BS Degree. We give you everything you NEED and no Fluff or other subjects. again both degrees on paper look identical.


iF the person with the first type of degree gets further in his/her career(s) so be it. But until that data is captured. I aint buying it.

Aside from political science which is something you need to have already taken in high school before you are of voting age. The rest of that fluff can be left on the table for those that just want to learn about all sorts of things. good for them. perhaps they have more money to pay for such courses. There is a large portion of college students who do not have the funds to mess around with courses they really dont need that most likely will not benefit their career aspirations or increase their bottom line once they get a job/career.


We already have a form of that in vocational schools.

Back on the subject I don't know anyone who hasn't benefited in the real world from college level writing.


you're missing the point.

There's two types of benefits.

Benefiting for the purpose of saying "hey, i can write an above average summary..but I dont really need to at the place i work."



The question remains. what is the purpose of college? is it just to give you a lot of skills you most likely wont NEED(yes you can use them but are they necessary? will they increase your pay rate?")

If college for the most part is a means to an end. lets stop joking around and make it make sense. keep the other courses around for those that have the time and money to do those things for themselves.

Truth is, when it comes to writing. A kid that is a very good writer in the 11th grade is a very good writer in college and is a very good writer on the job(any job). What I'm saying is. most people that write really well where everyone who reads their material can tell. Those people USUALLY could already write very well going into college. And a lot of them were majoring in subjects involving a lot of writing. You usually wont get a person who has average to below average writing ability take freshman comp and become this very good writer. it doesnt work that way most times. So if that is the case. what are we really taking these classes for? It's a money grab thats what. They've done enough studies to know human beings like to feel special. So they will give you extra stuff so you can try to out take the extra stuff to feel more special than the other guy or gal. They dont reallllly care about you like that. They want your money. Sure some of the individual professors care but that bottom line is what its all about. And all I'm saying is, its about time the student gets focused on the bottom line as well.

**to your point about vocational schools.. You're correct we do have that. But we all know the way things are ran in society as of 2017. You're not about to get a degree at a vocational school and these companies are requiring degrees for some of the most basic jobs one could imagine. and they are not even paying that well to boot.

and lets go back to this freshman comp again. Raise your hand if you learned something in freshman comp that you did not already know or go over in high school? I'll wait....

This is what should happen in my humble opinion. make all those GE's be required course work. But make every class attendance and participation based as far as your grade is concerned. and there is no grade its pass or fail. the participation is not writing stuff down at all. It's talking to your classmates and the professor about the subject matter. no tests, no taking notes, no homework. Come in here and get a light weight understanding of the subject matter or a refresher if you've already taken the class in high school. thats it. for those that are not majoring in those subjects.

if i'm not in a science major. they currently have Biology for non science majors. which is cute and all. but take that grade off. make it pass or fail like i said above based on participation and no other stuff. Its just their to give a student some info on the subject of biology. You dont need a test or classwork to pull this off. You've already taken biology in high school, lets be real.

^^The above will give you just enough info on the subjects so since you are still virtually a kid in college. you could find out you have more of an interest in biology than you first thought. and you can purse that from there. make the classes 1 unit a piece and cost 1 unit rates. cut out the nonsense.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
nickuku
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 09 Jul 2010
Posts: 4185
Location: Orange County

PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:36 pm    Post subject:

splashmtn wrote:
nickuku wrote:
splashmtn wrote:
jonnybravo wrote:
Raijin wrote:
I don't really see the necessity of having strong college level writing skills for certain careers. For example, the extent of writing a nurse will have to do is a brief 3-5 line summary of why a patient is coming into the hospital or how a patient's condition has progressed through the night. Heck, most of the time the message above is communicated verbally. The 3-5 line summary does not even need to be in complete sentences.

Pt was noted to be altered at 7AM
Pt also had a 103 fever
Pt is normally A&Ox3

or

Pt vomited 5 times last night
None of the vomit was bloody or green
Feels weak and nauseous

These notes could just be bullet points. No one's going to care if there are grammar errors or if the message above is listed in bullet points.

Why do the majority of students need to know calculus? How many college graduates on this board(non-engineer careers) have had to use derivatives at any point in their careers? These requirements are onerous and nonsensical and I believe we should be moving away from them.


No offense but that can literally be argued about every single class in college (non-CS/engineering of course) and how they pertain to the real world. That's not a reason not to require some of those classes. It's called an education for a reason.


and there lies the problem.

there should be two tracks.

the "All inclusive education" track. and no you dont get a gold star on your degree for taking this track. no one knows that you did it except for you. Since you are the one that choose to be educated in all subjects not even pertaining to what you are getting your degree in. thats you choice. no special kudos for it.


The second track is the No BS Degree. We give you everything you NEED and no Fluff or other subjects. again both degrees on paper look identical.


iF the person with the first type of degree gets further in his/her career(s) so be it. But until that data is captured. I aint buying it.

Aside from political science which is something you need to have already taken in high school before you are of voting age. The rest of that fluff can be left on the table for those that just want to learn about all sorts of things. good for them. perhaps they have more money to pay for such courses. There is a large portion of college students who do not have the funds to mess around with courses they really dont need that most likely will not benefit their career aspirations or increase their bottom line once they get a job/career.


We already have a form of that in vocational schools.

Back on the subject I don't know anyone who hasn't benefited in the real world from college level writing.


you're missing the point.

There's two types of benefits.

Benefiting for the purpose of saying "hey, i can write an above average summary..but I dont really need to at the place i work."



The question remains. what is the purpose of college? is it just to give you a lot of skills you most likely wont NEED(yes you can use them but are they necessary? will they increase your pay rate?")

If college for the most part is a means to an end. lets stop joking around and make it make sense. keep the other courses around for those that have the time and money to do those things for themselves.

Truth is, when it comes to writing. A kid that is a very good writer in the 11th grade is a very good writer in college and is a very good writer on the job(any job). What I'm saying is. most people that write really well where everyone who reads their material can tell. Those people USUALLY could already write very well going into college. And a lot of them were majoring in subjects involving a lot of writing. You usually wont get a person who has average to below average writing ability take freshman comp and become this very good writer. it doesnt work that way most times. So if that is the case. what are we really taking these classes for? It's a money grab thats what. They've done enough studies to know human beings like to feel special. So they will give you extra stuff so you can try to out take the extra stuff to feel more special than the other guy or gal. They dont reallllly care about you like that. They want your money. Sure some of the individual professors care but that bottom line is what its all about. And all I'm saying is, its about time the student gets focused on the bottom line as well.

**to your point about vocational schools.. You're correct we do have that. But we all know the way things are ran in society as of 2017. You're not about to get a degree at a vocational school and these companies are requiring degrees for some of the most basic jobs one could imagine. and they are not even paying that well to boot.

and lets go back to this freshman comp again. Raise your hand if you learned something in freshman comp that you did not already know or go over in high school? I'll wait....

This is what should happen in my humble opinion. make all those GE's be required course work. But make every class attendance and participation based as far as your grade is concerned. and there is no grade its pass or fail. the participation is not writing stuff down at all. It's talking to your classmates and the professor about the subject matter. no tests, no taking notes, no homework. Come in here and get a light weight understanding of the subject matter or a refresher if you've already taken the class in high school. thats it. for those that are not majoring in those subjects.

if i'm not in a science major. they currently have Biology for non science majors. which is cute and all. but take that grade off. make it pass or fail like i said above based on participation and no other stuff. Its just their to give a student some info on the subject of biology. You dont need a test or classwork to pull this off. You've already taken biology in high school, lets be real.

^^The above will give you just enough info on the subjects so since you are still virtually a kid in college. you could find out you have more of an interest in biology than you first thought. and you can purse that from there. make the classes 1 unit a piece and cost 1 unit rates. cut out the nonsense.


Can you organize your thoughts better please?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
angrypuppy
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 13 Apr 2001
Posts: 30387

PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:07 pm    Post subject:

nickuku wrote:
splashmtn wrote:
nickuku wrote:
splashmtn wrote:
jonnybravo wrote:
Raijin wrote:
I don't really see the necessity of having strong college level writing skills for certain careers. For example, the extent of writing a nurse will have to do is a brief 3-5 line summary of why a patient is coming into the hospital or how a patient's condition has progressed through the night. Heck, most of the time the message above is communicated verbally. The 3-5 line summary does not even need to be in complete sentences.

Pt was noted to be altered at 7AM
Pt also had a 103 fever
Pt is normally A&Ox3

or

Pt vomited 5 times last night
None of the vomit was bloody or green
Feels weak and nauseous

These notes could just be bullet points. No one's going to care if there are grammar errors or if the message above is listed in bullet points.

Why do the majority of students need to know calculus? How many college graduates on this board(non-engineer careers) have had to use derivatives at any point in their careers? These requirements are onerous and nonsensical and I believe we should be moving away from them.


No offense but that can literally be argued about every single class in college (non-CS/engineering of course) and how they pertain to the real world. That's not a reason not to require some of those classes. It's called an education for a reason.


and there lies the problem.

there should be two tracks.

the "All inclusive education" track. and no you dont get a gold star on your degree for taking this track. no one knows that you did it except for you. Since you are the one that choose to be educated in all subjects not even pertaining to what you are getting your degree in. thats you choice. no special kudos for it.


The second track is the No BS Degree. We give you everything you NEED and no Fluff or other subjects. again both degrees on paper look identical.


iF the person with the first type of degree gets further in his/her career(s) so be it. But until that data is captured. I aint buying it.

Aside from political science which is something you need to have already taken in high school before you are of voting age. The rest of that fluff can be left on the table for those that just want to learn about all sorts of things. good for them. perhaps they have more money to pay for such courses. There is a large portion of college students who do not have the funds to mess around with courses they really dont need that most likely will not benefit their career aspirations or increase their bottom line once they get a job/career.


We already have a form of that in vocational schools.

Back on the subject I don't know anyone who hasn't benefited in the real world from college level writing.


you're missing the point.

There's two types of benefits.

Benefiting for the purpose of saying "hey, i can write an above average summary..but I dont really need to at the place i work."



The question remains. what is the purpose of college? is it just to give you a lot of skills you most likely wont NEED(yes you can use them but are they necessary? will they increase your pay rate?")

If college for the most part is a means to an end. lets stop joking around and make it make sense. keep the other courses around for those that have the time and money to do those things for themselves.

Truth is, when it comes to writing. A kid that is a very good writer in the 11th grade is a very good writer in college and is a very good writer on the job(any job). What I'm saying is. most people that write really well where everyone who reads their material can tell. Those people USUALLY could already write very well going into college. And a lot of them were majoring in subjects involving a lot of writing. You usually wont get a person who has average to below average writing ability take freshman comp and become this very good writer. it doesnt work that way most times. So if that is the case. what are we really taking these classes for? It's a money grab thats what. They've done enough studies to know human beings like to feel special. So they will give you extra stuff so you can try to out take the extra stuff to feel more special than the other guy or gal. They dont reallllly care about you like that. They want your money. Sure some of the individual professors care but that bottom line is what its all about. And all I'm saying is, its about time the student gets focused on the bottom line as well.

**to your point about vocational schools.. You're correct we do have that. But we all know the way things are ran in society as of 2017. You're not about to get a degree at a vocational school and these companies are requiring degrees for some of the most basic jobs one could imagine. and they are not even paying that well to boot.

and lets go back to this freshman comp again. Raise your hand if you learned something in freshman comp that you did not already know or go over in high school? I'll wait....

This is what should happen in my humble opinion. make all those GE's be required course work. But make every class attendance and participation based as far as your grade is concerned. and there is no grade its pass or fail. the participation is not writing stuff down at all. It's talking to your classmates and the professor about the subject matter. no tests, no taking notes, no homework. Come in here and get a light weight understanding of the subject matter or a refresher if you've already taken the class in high school. thats it. for those that are not majoring in those subjects.

if i'm not in a science major. they currently have Biology for non science majors. which is cute and all. but take that grade off. make it pass or fail like i said above based on participation and no other stuff. Its just their to give a student some info on the subject of biology. You dont need a test or classwork to pull this off. You've already taken biology in high school, lets be real.

^^The above will give you just enough info on the subjects so since you are still virtually a kid in college. you could find out you have more of an interest in biology than you first thought. and you can purse that from there. make the classes 1 unit a piece and cost 1 unit rates. cut out the nonsense.


Can you organize your thoughts better please?



Oh, the irony within this thread.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
splashmtn
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 30 Aug 2016
Posts: 1157

PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:20 pm    Post subject:

nickuku wrote:
splashmtn wrote:
nickuku wrote:
splashmtn wrote:
jonnybravo wrote:
Raijin wrote:
I don't really see the necessity of having strong college level writing skills for certain careers. For example, the extent of writing a nurse will have to do is a brief 3-5 line summary of why a patient is coming into the hospital or how a patient's condition has progressed through the night. Heck, most of the time the message above is communicated verbally. The 3-5 line summary does not even need to be in complete sentences.

Pt was noted to be altered at 7AM
Pt also had a 103 fever
Pt is normally A&Ox3

or

Pt vomited 5 times last night
None of the vomit was bloody or green
Feels weak and nauseous

These notes could just be bullet points. No one's going to care if there are grammar errors or if the message above is listed in bullet points.

Why do the majority of students need to know calculus? How many college graduates on this board(non-engineer careers) have had to use derivatives at any point in their careers? These requirements are onerous and nonsensical and I believe we should be moving away from them.


No offense but that can literally be argued about every single class in college (non-CS/engineering of course) and how they pertain to the real world. That's not a reason not to require some of those classes. It's called an education for a reason.


and there lies the problem.

there should be two tracks.

the "All inclusive education" track. and no you dont get a gold star on your degree for taking this track. no one knows that you did it except for you. Since you are the one that choose to be educated in all subjects not even pertaining to what you are getting your degree in. thats you choice. no special kudos for it.


The second track is the No BS Degree. We give you everything you NEED and no Fluff or other subjects. again both degrees on paper look identical.


iF the person with the first type of degree gets further in his/her career(s) so be it. But until that data is captured. I aint buying it.

Aside from political science which is something you need to have already taken in high school before you are of voting age. The rest of that fluff can be left on the table for those that just want to learn about all sorts of things. good for them. perhaps they have more money to pay for such courses. There is a large portion of college students who do not have the funds to mess around with courses they really dont need that most likely will not benefit their career aspirations or increase their bottom line once they get a job/career.


We already have a form of that in vocational schools.

Back on the subject I don't know anyone who hasn't benefited in the real world from college level writing.


you're missing the point.

There's two types of benefits.

Benefiting for the purpose of saying "hey, i can write an above average summary..but I dont really need to at the place i work."



The question remains. what is the purpose of college? is it just to give you a lot of skills you most likely wont NEED(yes you can use them but are they necessary? will they increase your pay rate?")

If college for the most part is a means to an end. lets stop joking around and make it make sense. keep the other courses around for those that have the time and money to do those things for themselves.

Truth is, when it comes to writing. A kid that is a very good writer in the 11th grade is a very good writer in college and is a very good writer on the job(any job). What I'm saying is. most people that write really well where everyone who reads their material can tell. Those people USUALLY could already write very well going into college. And a lot of them were majoring in subjects involving a lot of writing. You usually wont get a person who has average to below average writing ability take freshman comp and become this very good writer. it doesnt work that way most times. So if that is the case. what are we really taking these classes for? It's a money grab thats what. They've done enough studies to know human beings like to feel special. So they will give you extra stuff so you can try to out take the extra stuff to feel more special than the other guy or gal. They dont reallllly care about you like that. They want your money. Sure some of the individual professors care but that bottom line is what its all about. And all I'm saying is, its about time the student gets focused on the bottom line as well.

**to your point about vocational schools.. You're correct we do have that. But we all know the way things are ran in society as of 2017. You're not about to get a degree at a vocational school and these companies are requiring degrees for some of the most basic jobs one could imagine. and they are not even paying that well to boot.

and lets go back to this freshman comp again. Raise your hand if you learned something in freshman comp that you did not already know or go over in high school? I'll wait....

This is what should happen in my humble opinion. make all those GE's be required course work. But make every class attendance and participation based as far as your grade is concerned. and there is no grade its pass or fail. the participation is not writing stuff down at all. It's talking to your classmates and the professor about the subject matter. no tests, no taking notes, no homework. Come in here and get a light weight understanding of the subject matter or a refresher if you've already taken the class in high school. thats it. for those that are not majoring in those subjects.

if i'm not in a science major. they currently have Biology for non science majors. which is cute and all. but take that grade off. make it pass or fail like i said above based on participation and no other stuff. Its just their to give a student some info on the subject of biology. You dont need a test or classwork to pull this off. You've already taken biology in high school, lets be real.

^^The above will give you just enough info on the subjects so since you are still virtually a kid in college. you could find out you have more of an interest in biology than you first thought. and you can purse that from there. make the classes 1 unit a piece and cost 1 unit rates. cut out the nonsense.


Can you organize your thoughts better please?

No. if you can't understand it and its to difficult for you. keep moving along.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
LakerFan87
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 25 May 2008
Posts: 18900
Location: The High Desert

PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Cal State universities eliminate placement exams and remedial classes for freshmen

LakerSanity wrote:
Huey Lewis & The News wrote:
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-cal-state-remedial-requirements-20170803-story.html

commence the dumbening


Students would still have to pass the required minimum Math and English classes to graduate, so there aren't any real requirements being eliminated. Rather, all this approach does is potentially eliminate classes that do not count toward anything, i.e. the classes which are supposed to prepare students to take the minimum requisite English and Math classes that they will eventually have to take to graduate.

Instead of requiring that students spend time and money on remedial classes that don't actually earn them credits toward graduation, the Cal State schools are trying to create a system that would somehow prepare students for the requisite math/english classes along the way, while also preserving the requirements to graduate, all in hopes of allowing students to graduate faster. If the schools can prep students for these required math/English classes at the same time the students earn real credits, it makes sense to do so. It may be the case that if a student can take courses toward their specific degree which do not require the math and/or English class that they are not yet ready to take, those classes themselves could prepare that student to eventually take and pass the requisite English/Math classes later into their college career that they aren't yet ready to take/pass as freshmen all the while moving them toward graduating with their chosen degrees more quickly than they are now.

That sounds nice, but I'm not sure if it would work. The first problem is that, while moving through the requirements of a student's degree, students rather quickly hit classes they must take which require that they first pass those basic English or math classes to even enroll in that class. For example, for most social sciences, that would be a statistics course of some kind (usually a lower division one and then an upper division one thereafter). So do schools start eliminating all pre-requisites, even those within the track for a specific degree/field? Probably not. This makes no mention of the fact that, if the student is really that far behind in English/Math skills, they may not even be able to pass any basic classes even if such classes do not have any English/math prerequisites (although that is unlikely because I doubt one can get into any decent college without having at least some basic math/english skills as proven by the ACT/SAT).

This all leads to the second point. Much like lower division classes before upper division classes, the idea of the remedial courses is to build a knowledge base and prepare students for more demanding/specific study all to prevent students from having to take the harder courses (among other degree-specific English/Math courses) multiple times as a result of not being prepared. While the Cal State schools' entire objective is to ensure more students are graduating in 4 years, rather than 5 or 6 years, that objective cannot be achieved if students have to take the same classes multiple times due to failing them. Where students have to take the same classes twice or three times, the entire purpose of eliminating remedial courses is defeated - students would spend the same time in school, if not more, while proving that the remedial courses were actually needed all along.

The reality is that colleges are being asked more and more to make up for the failings of elementary school, middle school and high school education. This solution seems to be addressing the symptom of that problem, rather than the problem itself. Unfortunately, there is no short cut to making a student more well prepared. The only recourse is actually teaching them, whether that be before college or in college. If our pre-college educational system cannot be improved, maybe a middle ground is needed - boost up the availability and effectiveness of junior colleges. If a student doesn't have the skills for college yet, defer their enrollment to that 4 year institution for a year and require that they take certain classes at a junior college (thereby saving them some money, even if you aren't always saving them time). Junior colleges are being underutilized as is, so they could be a solution.


You hit the nail on the head.

During my freshman orientation in 2006, it was announced that 50% of my incoming class had to take at least 1 remedial class, whether it be Math and/or English. This wasn't a community college. This was a 4-year university.

I was astonished and asked myself "If 4 year colleges are admitting students that can't adequately grasp high school level Math and English, then what's the point of high school?".
_________________
...in my opinion.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
splashmtn
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 30 Aug 2016
Posts: 1157

PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Cal State universities eliminate placement exams and remedial classes for freshmen

LakerFan87 wrote:
LakerSanity wrote:
Huey Lewis & The News wrote:
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-cal-state-remedial-requirements-20170803-story.html

commence the dumbening


Students would still have to pass the required minimum Math and English classes to graduate, so there aren't any real requirements being eliminated. Rather, all this approach does is potentially eliminate classes that do not count toward anything, i.e. the classes which are supposed to prepare students to take the minimum requisite English and Math classes that they will eventually have to take to graduate.

Instead of requiring that students spend time and money on remedial classes that don't actually earn them credits toward graduation, the Cal State schools are trying to create a system that would somehow prepare students for the requisite math/english classes along the way, while also preserving the requirements to graduate, all in hopes of allowing students to graduate faster. If the schools can prep students for these required math/English classes at the same time the students earn real credits, it makes sense to do so. It may be the case that if a student can take courses toward their specific degree which do not require the math and/or English class that they are not yet ready to take, those classes themselves could prepare that student to eventually take and pass the requisite English/Math classes later into their college career that they aren't yet ready to take/pass as freshmen all the while moving them toward graduating with their chosen degrees more quickly than they are now.

That sounds nice, but I'm not sure if it would work. The first problem is that, while moving through the requirements of a student's degree, students rather quickly hit classes they must take which require that they first pass those basic English or math classes to even enroll in that class. For example, for most social sciences, that would be a statistics course of some kind (usually a lower division one and then an upper division one thereafter). So do schools start eliminating all pre-requisites, even those within the track for a specific degree/field? Probably not. This makes no mention of the fact that, if the student is really that far behind in English/Math skills, they may not even be able to pass any basic classes even if such classes do not have any English/math prerequisites (although that is unlikely because I doubt one can get into any decent college without having at least some basic math/english skills as proven by the ACT/SAT).

This all leads to the second point. Much like lower division classes before upper division classes, the idea of the remedial courses is to build a knowledge base and prepare students for more demanding/specific study all to prevent students from having to take the harder courses (among other degree-specific English/Math courses) multiple times as a result of not being prepared. While the Cal State schools' entire objective is to ensure more students are graduating in 4 years, rather than 5 or 6 years, that objective cannot be achieved if students have to take the same classes multiple times due to failing them. Where students have to take the same classes twice or three times, the entire purpose of eliminating remedial courses is defeated - students would spend the same time in school, if not more, while proving that the remedial courses were actually needed all along.

The reality is that colleges are being asked more and more to make up for the failings of elementary school, middle school and high school education. This solution seems to be addressing the symptom of that problem, rather than the problem itself. Unfortunately, there is no short cut to making a student more well prepared. The only recourse is actually teaching them, whether that be before college or in college. If our pre-college educational system cannot be improved, maybe a middle ground is needed - boost up the availability and effectiveness of junior colleges. If a student doesn't have the skills for college yet, defer their enrollment to that 4 year institution for a year and require that they take certain classes at a junior college (thereby saving them some money, even if you aren't always saving them time). Junior colleges are being underutilized as is, so they could be a solution.


You hit the nail on the head.

During my freshman orientation in 2006, it was announced that 50% of my incoming class had to take at least 1 remedial class, whether it be Math and/or English. This wasn't a community college. This was a 4-year university.

I was astonished and asked myself "If 4 year colleges are admitting students that can't adequately grasp high school level Math and English, then what's the point of high school?".
and thats the problem. It starts with k-12. and yes K is very important.

Community College professors need to go to high school and more or less have training courses on how to teach. Your local CC is much better than your local public high school when teaching math and english. They are actually better than a lot of 4 year university teachers. Because those professors THINK 'you should've already know this..." whatever "THIS" may be. The CC professors take you as you are with all of your deficits and go from there to fill the gaps.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    LakersGround.net Forum Index -> Off Topic All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1
Jump to:  

 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum






Graphics by uberzev
© 1995-2010 LakersGround.net. All Rights Reserved. Privacy Policy. Terms of Use.
LakersGround is an unofficial news source serving the fan community since 1995.
We are in no way associated with the Los Angeles Lakers or the National Basketball Association.


Powered by phpBB