Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:40 am Post subject:
socalsp3 wrote:
I think concerns of Zo in the halfcourt are overblown. He has high IQ and will figure out what defenses are giving him. He is usually a step a head of defenses. He has way more athleticism than Kendall mArshall. Has anyone ever seen KM catch a lob or even dunk for that matter?
Well that's part of the problem. The Lakers *HAD another playmaker capable of setting Lonzo up for that pass in DAR.
The step ahead of defenses argument is mostly based around his passing. When it was PnR situations during Vegas, he was just ultra decisive when he had any kind of 1/4 step on the defense for drives. Didn't outquick them, didn't really blow by them. Defenders were right on his shoulder. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
I think concerns of Zo in the halfcourt are overblown. He has high IQ and will figure out what defenses are giving him. He is usually a step a head of defenses. He has way more athleticism than Kendall mArshall. Has anyone ever seen KM catch a lob or even dunk for that matter?
Well that's part of the problem. The Lakers *HAD another playmaker capable of setting Lonzo up for that pass in DAR.
The step ahead of defenses argument is mostly based around his passing. When it was PnR situations during Vegas, he was just ultra decisive when he had any kind of 1/4 step on the defense for drives. Didn't outquick them, didn't really blow by them. Defenders were right on his shoulder.
I think part of it was trying to draw the defense to him for the pass. When helpers stayed home like in the Sixers game he got in the paint at will and scored 36.
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 10:11 am Post subject:
socalsp3 wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
socalsp3 wrote:
I think concerns of Zo in the halfcourt are overblown. He has high IQ and will figure out what defenses are giving him. He is usually a step a head of defenses. He has way more athleticism than Kendall mArshall. Has anyone ever seen KM catch a lob or even dunk for that matter?
Well that's part of the problem. The Lakers *HAD another playmaker capable of setting Lonzo up for that pass in DAR.
The step ahead of defenses argument is mostly based around his passing. When it was PnR situations during Vegas, he was just ultra decisive when he had any kind of 1/4 step on the defense for drives. Didn't outquick them, didn't really blow by them. Defenders were right on his shoulder.
I think part of it was trying to draw the defense to him for the pass. When helpers stayed home like in the Sixers game he got in the paint at will and scored 36.
1:36, defense overplayed, defender at shoulder
1:41, hit the gas at halfcourt, don't think this flies next level
2:00, transition
2:17, no man's land
2:45, 1/2 step, defender right there
2:53, steal at rim, layup
3:08, shoots 3 behind screen (this I'm happy about)
3:19, pull up 3 (this I'm happy about)
3:27, transition push, don't think this flies next level
4:13, this is more along the lines of the traffic I expect Lonzo to be in next level, especially with sub avg 3pt shooting as a team
4:27, transition push, more things I don't think flies next level
4:37, legit straight line drive along baseline
4:45, transition layup
5:00, transition pull up 3.
5:12, PnR drive and dish
5:22, straight line drive
5:39, change direction, straight line drive to kick
5:53, forced drive, spin move, And 1.
I wouldn't define this as getting to the paint at will. Pretty much a handful of times he's got defenders on his shoulders, using PnR to free up a bit, and basically just floored it on straight line drives when he got a 1/4 step as mentioned.
I definitely don't expect NBA level defenders to keep stunting on defense when Zo is getting layups like that. First rule of basketball.
I think the guy that got to the rim at will is Dennis Smith Jr
0:35 Screen, slash, one help defender, got past his primary
0:46 Rip through, at hoop.
1:07.
1:12, Pick, help defender, fadeaway in paint
1:29, reset to 3pt line on O board, then burned defender
2:12 burns switch defender to the rim
2:36 burns switch defender again to the rim
3:17, Josh Jackson on his shoulder
3:36, burns Josh Jackson
Didn't have the scoring opportunities in transition like Lonzo, but lit up defenders in the halfcourt at will and exploited defender switches like crazy.
That is going to the paint at will. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
So you just run the pick five feet inside the half court line. Ball has great straight line speed and can dish to either side. If the guard goes under Lonzo has him in quasi transition and if the big switches he's out where the air is very thin.
You'll have both defenders automatically sagging unless Zo starts making shots from 35'.
If I had a really good perimeter defender, I'd go out of my way to blitz Lonzo near halfcourt. The passing is great. The handle, not so much.
But if I'm the defense, and I've got a big with the basketball 35' away from the hoop, I'm already ahead.
I get what you're saying. You see GS run this successfully with Curry largely because you can't leave him open from 32' in. It forces teams to respect the action farther out and gives the GS offense more room to operate.
I see it a little differently for Lonzo though. If the big is Randle, Ingram, Nance or Kuzma, I don't think teams trap. All those guys can make a play 4-on-3, open with he ball 30' out. They have to make the Draymond pass and the shooters have to convert. But at that point Lonzo will have done his job. If you don't have to honor Zo's shot out to 32' I agree defenses will sag under the play. In that case you give Zo a running start while allowing him to 'push' the defender to a spot by virtue of where they set up the screen, both Mid/Right/Left and how far across half court.combined with coordinated action behind the play you create opportunity. _________________ Austin Reaves keeps his game tight, like Kobe Bryant on game night.
When his man tries to press up on him that is usually a mistake. If you give Lonzo any kind of speed in the offensive zone, you are in trouble. Obviously, in transition you are most likely already in trouble. I think our goal whether on a made hoop or a miss will be to win the first 4 seconds of a possession. As soon as we have possession, go.
I think if you commit a second defender to him, you are likely in trouble, too, as long as guys keep the foot on the gas pedal. Attacking, ball moving. It's a problem. If they aren't aggressive, confident in their skills, etc., then the D can recover. If you have to give the ball to Zubac 35 feet from the hoop, he better take up that space and make the remaining defenders make a decision. Can't handle that and you will sit.
Where I think Lonzo's got work to get better at is when the air is sucked out of the ball and teams start switching on him. He was surrounded by strong shooting bigs in the SL, but he had very few moments where teams did this. If I'm defending him (and he's hitting his threes), I switch and force him to beat the big on iso. That's not something we saw in the SL. I don't ice the screen-roll against him right now with Lopez, because that's committing a second defender again.
If defenders help off the PF against Lopez/Ball, the PF has to either be an aggressive threat with the shot or pulling a defender to him by heading toward the rim. Hesitate and we lose the advantage. But I'm trying not to get into any help situation if I can switch and not get badly burned.
Zo did have a couple very nice floaters over bigs on the PnR. He hits those with consistency and teams are in trouble if he can get bigs backing up on him on switches.
On a side note, I'm looking forward to seeing his off-ball halfcourt game grow, as well. We didn't look to set that up at all in the SL and that's a big part of his game.
Joined: 21 Feb 2008 Posts: 28422 Location: LA --> Bay Area
Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:06 pm Post subject:
It's good to be aware of the flaws in Lonzo's game, but it works both ways. We can't really know until we see the games played, but what we do know already is that Lonzo is insanely smart on the basketball court, and that he adapts well. I'd only be worried if we're 2 years into his career and he's still majorly deficient in a crucial area. And even if that's the case, any singlular major deficiency is trumped by what will hopefully be multiple strengths.
I actually think that Lonzo has a 2nd gear. It's subtle, but it's definitely there. That 2nd gear has a burst to it and I've seen him use it not just in transition.
I think if my eyes aren't deceiving me, that it could be a key weapon in his attacking in the halfcourt with the ball in his hands. It would be easier if he had another passer/scorer at the 2 that he could pass the ball to and allow him to move off ball, but we don't have that. KCP is a capable passer, so that's all we have right now at that position. Ingram and Randle are solid passers though, so he has help there.
Ultimately if it's the kind of thing that makes Lonzo improve his handles even more, I'm all for it. _________________ How NBA 2K18 failed the All-Time Lakers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxMBYm3wwxk
that story says he was thinking about it before signing with Nike
He was making fun of BBB him and his mom was being disrespectful
Yup. _________________ "Chick lived and breathed Lakers basketball…but he was also fair and objective and called every game the way it was played."
-from Chick: His Unpublished Memoirs and the Memories of Those Who Knew Him
Lonzo Ball Discusses Fitting Into Luke Walton’s System
Quote:
“I think I’ll fit in pretty good. He wants to play fast, that’s how I’ve been playing my whole life and he needs someone to run the team. I feel I could do that too. I’m just coming in there with a mindset to win and just trying to do whatever I can to make that happen.”
that story says he was thinking about it before signing with Nike
He was making fun of BBB him and his mom was being disrespectful
Yup.
Even the Bootleg Laker sites be getting it wrong.
He said it like a few days ago, and said that Lonzo Ball was the best guy he played against in college. Not back in April with that SI video, like a few days ago
that story says he was thinking about it before signing with Nike
He was making fun of BBB him and his mom was being disrespectful
Yup.
Even the Bootleg Laker sites be getting it wrong.
He said it like a few days ago, and said that Lonzo Ball was the best guy he played against in college. Not back in April with that SI video, like a few days ago
He's mocking him if you ask me. He was making fun back then and believe he's still doing it. _________________ Coach Vogel, Kidd, Hollins
Max slot : Kawhi
that story says he was thinking about it before signing with Nike
He was making fun of BBB him and his mom was being disrespectful
Yup.
Even the Bootleg Laker sites be getting it wrong.
He said it like a few days ago, and said that Lonzo Ball was the best guy he played against in college. Not back in April with that SI video, like a few days ago
He's mocking him if you ask me. He was making fun back then and believe he's still doing it.
One of the great moments in SL was when the camera showed fultz biting on a towel and semi-covering his face when the lakers came back on philly. The look on his face was priceless...not Lonzo again
that story says he was thinking about it before signing with Nike
He was making fun of BBB him and his mom was being disrespectful
Yup.
Even the Bootleg Laker sites be getting it wrong.
He said it like a few days ago, and said that Lonzo Ball was the best guy he played against in college. Not back in April with that SI video, like a few days ago
He's mocking him if you ask me. He was making fun back then and believe he's still doing it.
One of the great moments in SL was when the camera showed fultz biting on a towel and semi-covering his face when the lakers came back on philly. The look on his face was priceless...not Lonzo again
Followed up by the salty faced Fultz on rookies photo shoot with Lonzo getting the middle spot
that story says he was thinking about it before signing with Nike
He was making fun of BBB him and his mom was being disrespectful
Yup.
Even the Bootleg Laker sites be getting it wrong.
He said it like a few days ago, and said that Lonzo Ball was the best guy he played against in college. Not back in April with that SI video, like a few days ago
He's mocking him if you ask me. He was making fun back then and believe he's still doing it.
One of the great moments in SL was when the camera showed fultz biting on a towel and semi-covering his face when the lakers came back on philly. The look on his face was priceless...not Lonzo again
Followed up by the salty faced Fultz on rookies photo shoot with Lonzo getting the middle spot
that story says he was thinking about it before signing with Nike
He was making fun of BBB him and his mom was being disrespectful
Yup.
Even the Bootleg Laker sites be getting it wrong.
He said it like a few days ago, and said that Lonzo Ball was the best guy he played against in college. Not back in April with that SI video, like a few days ago
He's mocking him if you ask me. He was making fun back then and believe he's still doing it.
One of the great moments in SL was when the camera showed fultz biting on a towel and semi-covering his face when the lakers came back on philly. The look on his face was priceless...not Lonzo again
Followed up by the salty faced Fultz on rookies photo shoot with Lonzo getting the middle spot
"...there was a time when the Israelites were wandering in the desert and all of a sudden, bread came down from heaven,” Pelinka said. “That’s kind of what today feels like for us to have KCP join.”
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