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loslakersss
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 Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:11 am Post subject: |
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Really good analysis from Reddit on Jaime and Cersei (via reddit):
| Quote: | You probably noticed it. That moment where Jaime and Cersei are hugging and she says, "Never betray me again" and Jaime opens his eyes, staring blankly ahead. Was that the moment Jaime had his doubts about her pregnancy? Maybe. But you have to realize what Jaime has gone through to understand all the things he might be thinking in this moment.
In their first interaction, Jaime tells Cersei about what he saw in the battle on the field and how he feels they don't have a chance against Dany's army. Cersei becomes a bit annoyed and says, "I sit on her father's throne, the father you betrayed and murdered." Jaime later tries to tell Cersei that Tyrion didn't murder Joffrey but Cersei just shakes her head in frustration. "After all this time it still amazes me..." but Jaime interrupts her. He has to lay it out for her. She seemingly doesn't really trust him to tell the truth. She's pretty brutal to him mentally in this scene. She actually smiles when he tells her it was Olenna. "And this was before or after she drank the poison you so kindly provided?" As he lays it out, she comes to realize he's right, but he has to work to get her to believe him. She gets in one last dig with "We fight and die, or we submit and die. I know my choice. A soldier should know his".
We learned in the Season 3 episode "Kissed By Fire", during the bath scene with Brienne, that Jaime is not exactly the character everyone thinks. He actually is quite honorable, incest aside. He breaks down and tells Brienne what happened when the Mad King fell to his sword. "There it is. There's the look. I've seen it for 17 years on face after face. You all despise me. Kingslayer. Oath breaker. A man without honor." Jaime hates how people look at him and see a dishonorable, untrustworthy man. But it's really only under Cersei's thumb that he does horrible things.
He continues later about Wildfire, "The Mad King was obsessed with it. He loved to watch people burn. The way their skin blackened and blistered and melted off the bones. He burned lords he didn't like. He burned Hands who disobeyed him. He burned anyone who was against him. Before long, half the country was against him."
Pay special attention to this next bit: "Aerys saw traitors everywhere, so he had his pyromancer place caches of Wildfire all over the city. Beneath the Sept of Baelor and the slums of Flea Bottom. Under houses, stables, taverns, even beneath the Red Keep itself." The Mad King saw traitors everywhere. And he was ready to burn the city and blow up everything to keep his seat and rid the kingdom of betrayers.
Jaime goes on to talk about how Tywin arrived at the gates before Robert and Ned that day. Jaime actually urged the King to surrender, knowing his father was likely lying. What he says next to Brienne is also very significant. "But the king didn't listen to me. He didn't listen to Varys, who tried to warn him. But he did listen to Grand Maester Pycelle, that grey, sunken (bleep). 'You can trust the Lannisters,' he said."
Coming back to episode 5 and their final encounter, Jaime has given everything for Cersei since we've met him. He's been loyal to her to a fault. But at this moment, he's just walked in on a secretive meeting between her and the maester Qyburn, a man in whom she seems to put her complete trust. Qyburn has just said "I can give you something", although we're not sure that Jaime actually heard that utterance. Cersei knows about the meeting with Tyrion, and how Bronn set it up, she's obviously spying on them. She outright calls him a traitor during their embrace. Cersei only trusts her maester, tried to blow up everyone and tells Jaime he is betraying her.
I really think that in that final moment of the scene, staring straight down during their embrace, Jaime realizes what is happening. She sees him as a traitor. Untrustworthy. Just like the rest of them. And in that moment he realizes, she might be just as bad as the mad King. |
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tox
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:39 am Post subject: |
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^ good analysis but I'd argue that this is him continuing with his skepticism of Cersei. He presumably has rationalized Cersei burning the Sept, but back in Episode 4 (?) when Bronn points out there's no more High Septon, Jaime doesn't exactly have a gleeful reaction to that point. When Bronn says Cersei will be a terrible peacetime Queen, Jaime doesn't really disagree and just says "Stranger things have happened."
The reddit post above also leaves out the fact that Cersei coldly talks about replacing the roasted Lannister forces with mercenaries without skipping a beat, and Jaime's taken aback by her aloofness. I wonder if it's going to come to a head with the plan to bring a wight to KL. Jaime might be convinced in a way where Cersei wouldn't care, even if it means Westeros turning into a frozen wasteland of zombies. That's as good a time as any for a betrayal/ redemption from Jaime. |
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Theseus
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:27 am Post subject: |
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My prediction for the Jaime Cersei storyline is that Jaime sees Cersei becoming Aerys.
Jaime and Cersei will see the wight brought to them by Jon and his crew, sans whoever died. Jaime and Cersei will be convinced and will work with Daenerys to dispatch them, this will be Cersei's chance to weaken Daenerys. She might do something so simple as commit her troops to withdraw from the field of battle, or something like attack her dragons while they fight the White Walkers.
Jaime will be horrified, because he sees Cersei willing to commit all of Westeros to a fate of undead-yness just to win her war with Daenerys. Jaime will either kill Cersei and switch sides, or kill her and perish. Or he will be totally wishy washy as he always has been and do nothing, and frustrate everyone. |
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loslakersss
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:39 am Post subject: |
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| Theseus wrote: | My prediction for the Jaime Cersei storyline is that Jaime sees Cersei becoming Aerys.
Jaime and Cersei will see the wight brought to them by Jon and his crew, sans whoever died. Jaime and Cersei will be convinced and will work with Daenerys to dispatch them, this will be Cersei's chance to weaken Daenerys. She might do something so simple as commit her troops to withdraw from the field of battle, or something like attack her dragons while they fight the White Walkers.
Jaime will be horrified, because he sees Cersei willing to commit all of Westeros to a fate of undead-yness just to win her war with Daenerys. Jaime will either kill Cersei and switch sides, or kill her and perish. Or he will be totally wishy washy as he always has been and do nothing, and frustrate everyone. |
Completely possible and probable  |
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loslakersss
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| Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 11:38 am Post subject: |
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| So at Hardhome when the Night King raises the wights, he's warging or what? Is Bran going to be able to telepathically fight with the Night King, Professor X vs. Apocalypse style? Can he block him from warging or kick the NK out of the wights? Or are the wights not controlled by the NK just brought back, simillar to what Thoros/LOTL do for Beric? |
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Huey Lewis & The News
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Location: So what's the uh...topic of discussion?
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KeepItRealOrElse
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| Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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| IT'S TOMORROW. I'M DODGING ALL THREADS LIKE A MF THO. I'on trust ya'll |
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TheBlackMamba
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| Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:22 am Post subject: |
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 to all of us who avoided spoilers and temptation to watch the leaked episode  |
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leor_77
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| Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Not sure if anyone else notices...From rewatching this show, I've noticed a few mannersims. Specifically with Cersei and Joffrey...When they give [what they think is] a witty line, they seem keep their mouth open after the line is delivered. |
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LakerSanity
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| Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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That was a very bitter sweet episode. At the same time, I knew there would be at least one disheartening death before the season was up and that was probably it. This season has kicked butt so far though, which is impressive given that its all new material.
And if Jaime and Cersei can be a thing, then Jon and Dany can be as well in this world... although its still creepy.
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marloveslakers24
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| Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Tormund and the hound exchange was awesome |
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loslakersss
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| Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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| The rock they ended up on looks exactly the same as the rock Bran saw the NK and his army at when he was warming. Makes me certain that this was all a trap to get a dragon. |
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KeepItRealOrElse
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| Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Didn't like a lot of whet happened...Jon continuing to fight for no reason when they were ready to go.. The Hound throwing that rock.. Arya's being stupid. Time jumps are iffy |
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dood23
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| Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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maybe we should stop bringing up fan theories from other places to here
all this ish starting to get suspicious
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KeepItRealOrElse
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| Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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| dood23 wrote: | maybe we should stop bringing up fan theories from other places to here
all this ish starting to get suspicious |
I'm with that.. or at least put a bold spoiler stamp before you say it.. and then responses only can be in the quote tree |
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rwongega
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leor_77
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| Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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| rwongega wrote: | | https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DHt9HLuUQAAICtk.jpg |
1/2 - should be silver. |
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PRLakeShow
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| Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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GAME OF THRONES: SEASON 7 FINALE PROMO SETS UP A POPULAR FAN THEORY
LINK |
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tlim
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| Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 9:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Bleah. Knew the ending was coming. It was inevitable with the blue eyes. |
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tox
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| Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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| KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | | Didn't like a lot of whet happened...Jon continuing to fight for no reason when they were ready to go.. The Hound throwing that rock.. Arya's being stupid. Time jumps are iffy |
I think Jon continued to fight because he needed to buy them time to get the wight on Drogon.
As for Arya, there's a point where she's arguing with Sansa and she defends herself saying, "The Lannisters made me do it. They said it was the best chance of saving Father." And Arya quips, "So you were just stupid?" to which Sansa doesn't have a response. Uhhh.... yes! If you're saying she's stupid, then you're acknowledging she wasn't malicious.
That said, I still think I'm on board with the story. Is there a point where anyone acts out of character? Sansa is mostly reasonable, but there are cracks showing with her ambition (ironically that's why she'd make a good ruler!). Arya is suspicious of Sansa's loyalties, and way too aggressive. And Littlefinger is starting to feel like early show Littlefinger -- his gambit was to push Sansa closer to him (check) via Arya's hostility, and yet he banked on Arya being Stark enough not to kill Sansa (as he said in the episode). Good work, you cunning devil.
As for the Hound... that was dumb but out-of-character?
If I have any criticisms, it'd be just the cinematic nature of the episode. When I started watching the show, I was expecting some random contrivance to save Ned. Nope. In this one, we had Dany show up just in the nick of time and then Benjen show up just in the nick of time. Where GOT used to defy these sorts of tropes, it's fallen into them now. Same thing happened with Bronn in Episode 4 (not sure how he didn't get burned) and Jaime in Eps 4+5.
I also agree the timing was weird. How much time passed on that circle before the lake froze up and the wights attacked? Because in that much time, a raven went all the way to Dragonstone, and then Dany flew all the way to Eastwatch? |
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jonnybravo
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| Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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| tox wrote: | | KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | | Didn't like a lot of whet happened...Jon continuing to fight for no reason when they were ready to go.. The Hound throwing that rock.. Arya's being stupid. Time jumps are iffy |
I think Jon continued to fight because he needed to buy them time to get the wight on Drogon.
As for Arya, there's a point where she's arguing with Sansa and she defends herself saying, "The Lannisters made me do it. They said it was the best chance of saving Father." And Arya quips, "So you were just stupid?" to which Sansa doesn't have a response. Uhhh.... yes! If you're saying she's stupid, then you're acknowledging she wasn't malicious.
That said, I still think I'm on board with the story. Is there a point where anyone acts out of character? Sansa is mostly reasonable, but there are cracks showing with her ambition (ironically that's why she'd make a good ruler!). Arya is suspicious of Sansa's loyalties, and way too aggressive. And Littlefinger is starting to feel like early show Littlefinger -- his gambit was to push Sansa closer to him (check) via Arya's hostility, and yet he banked on Arya being Stark enough not to kill Sansa (as he said in the episode). Good work, you cunning devil.
As for the Hound... that was dumb but out-of-character?
If I have any criticisms, it'd be just the cinematic nature of the episode. When I started watching the show, I was expecting some random contrivance to save Ned. Nope. In this one, we had Dany show up just in the nick of time and then Benjen show up just in the nick of time. Where GOT used to defy these sorts of tropes, it's fallen into them now. Same thing happened with Bronn in Episode 4 (not sure how he didn't get burned) and Jaime in Eps 4+5.
I also agree the timing was weird. How much time passed on that circle before the lake froze up and the wights attacked? Because in that much time, a raven went all the way to Dragonstone, and then Dany flew all the way to Eastwatch? |
Yep, it's the same thing I brought up. There's no source material to pull from. These are TV/Movie caliber writers at their core. They're going to revert to what they know. Still fun as (bleep) to see everything come to pass.
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tox
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| Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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| jonnybravo wrote: | | tox wrote: | | KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | | Didn't like a lot of whet happened...Jon continuing to fight for no reason when they were ready to go.. The Hound throwing that rock.. Arya's being stupid. Time jumps are iffy |
I think Jon continued to fight because he needed to buy them time to get the wight on Drogon.
As for Arya, there's a point where she's arguing with Sansa and she defends herself saying, "The Lannisters made me do it. They said it was the best chance of saving Father." And Arya quips, "So you were just stupid?" to which Sansa doesn't have a response. Uhhh.... yes! If you're saying she's stupid, then you're acknowledging she wasn't malicious.
That said, I still think I'm on board with the story. Is there a point where anyone acts out of character? Sansa is mostly reasonable, but there are cracks showing with her ambition (ironically that's why she'd make a good ruler!). Arya is suspicious of Sansa's loyalties, and way too aggressive. And Littlefinger is starting to feel like early show Littlefinger -- his gambit was to push Sansa closer to him (check) via Arya's hostility, and yet he banked on Arya being Stark enough not to kill Sansa (as he said in the episode). Good work, you cunning devil.
As for the Hound... that was dumb but out-of-character?
If I have any criticisms, it'd be just the cinematic nature of the episode. When I started watching the show, I was expecting some random contrivance to save Ned. Nope. In this one, we had Dany show up just in the nick of time and then Benjen show up just in the nick of time. Where GOT used to defy these sorts of tropes, it's fallen into them now. Same thing happened with Bronn in Episode 4 (not sure how he didn't get burned) and Jaime in Eps 4+5.
I also agree the timing was weird. How much time passed on that circle before the lake froze up and the wights attacked? Because in that much time, a raven went all the way to Dragonstone, and then Dany flew all the way to Eastwatch? |
Yep, it's the same thing I brought up. There's no source material to pull from. These are TV/Movie caliber writers at their core. They're going to revert to what they know. Still fun as (bleep) to see everything come to pass. |
Right. The show's been very conventional for a while. I view it more like a blockbuster and less like the subversive show from the first 3-4 seasons, and by those standards this is fun as hell.
I'm also more forgiving of stuff like Dany showing up last second (against chronology) when there are consequences to her actions. Doesn't feel like a total deus ex machina. (Though I'm totally on board with deus ex machina revolving around Jon now, like Benjen saving him -- I'm convinced that his story is written with the intention of the Lord of Light watching out for him, so a deus ex machina works as it did in Greek tragedies.) |
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jonnybravo
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| Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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| tox wrote: | | jonnybravo wrote: | | tox wrote: | | KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | | Didn't like a lot of whet happened...Jon continuing to fight for no reason when they were ready to go.. The Hound throwing that rock.. Arya's being stupid. Time jumps are iffy |
I think Jon continued to fight because he needed to buy them time to get the wight on Drogon.
As for Arya, there's a point where she's arguing with Sansa and she defends herself saying, "The Lannisters made me do it. They said it was the best chance of saving Father." And Arya quips, "So you were just stupid?" to which Sansa doesn't have a response. Uhhh.... yes! If you're saying she's stupid, then you're acknowledging she wasn't malicious.
That said, I still think I'm on board with the story. Is there a point where anyone acts out of character? Sansa is mostly reasonable, but there are cracks showing with her ambition (ironically that's why she'd make a good ruler!). Arya is suspicious of Sansa's loyalties, and way too aggressive. And Littlefinger is starting to feel like early show Littlefinger -- his gambit was to push Sansa closer to him (check) via Arya's hostility, and yet he banked on Arya being Stark enough not to kill Sansa (as he said in the episode). Good work, you cunning devil.
As for the Hound... that was dumb but out-of-character?
If I have any criticisms, it'd be just the cinematic nature of the episode. When I started watching the show, I was expecting some random contrivance to save Ned. Nope. In this one, we had Dany show up just in the nick of time and then Benjen show up just in the nick of time. Where GOT used to defy these sorts of tropes, it's fallen into them now. Same thing happened with Bronn in Episode 4 (not sure how he didn't get burned) and Jaime in Eps 4+5.
I also agree the timing was weird. How much time passed on that circle before the lake froze up and the wights attacked? Because in that much time, a raven went all the way to Dragonstone, and then Dany flew all the way to Eastwatch? |
Yep, it's the same thing I brought up. There's no source material to pull from. These are TV/Movie caliber writers at their core. They're going to revert to what they know. Still fun as (bleep) to see everything come to pass. |
Right. The show's been very conventional for a while. I view it more like a blockbuster and less like the subversive show from the first 3-4 seasons, and by those standards this is fun as hell.
I'm also more forgiving of stuff like Dany showing up last second (against chronology) when there are consequences to her actions. Doesn't feel like a total deus ex machina. (Though I'm totally on board with deus ex machina revolving around Jon now, like Benjen saving him -- I'm convinced that his story is written with the intention of the Lord of Light watching out for him, so a deus ex machina works as it did in Greek tragedies.) |
Yeah and I don't want to be dimissive with what the writers are having to do either. They hvae a year to basically put this all together. They simply don't have the time to lace in layers of nuance and top tier dialogue in addition to hitting the main plot points.
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tox
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| Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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| jonnybravo wrote: | | tox wrote: | | jonnybravo wrote: |
Yep, it's the same thing I brought up. There's no source material to pull from. These are TV/Movie caliber writers at their core. They're going to revert to what they know. Still fun as (bleep) to see everything come to pass. |
Right. The show's been very conventional for a while. I view it more like a blockbuster and less like the subversive show from the first 3-4 seasons, and by those standards this is fun as hell.
I'm also more forgiving of stuff like Dany showing up last second (against chronology) when there are consequences to her actions. Doesn't feel like a total deus ex machina. (Though I'm totally on board with deus ex machina revolving around Jon now, like Benjen saving him -- I'm convinced that his story is written with the intention of the Lord of Light watching out for him, so a deus ex machina works as it did in Greek tragedies.) |
Yeah and I don't want to be dimissive with what the writers are having to do either. They hvae a year to basically put this all together. They simply don't have the time to lace in layers of nuance and top tier dialogue in addition to hitting the main plot points. |
Yep! I've thought about this a lot. GRRM has taken 6 years and he hasn't managed to write a convincing and cohesive narrative based on the latest book material. We can't expect TV writers to be able to put something together that'll be as intricately woven as the book material in a year. Not to mention the limited amount of showtime in Seasons 7 & 8 for exposition.
I still think the writing can be cleaned up a bit, but I don't blame them too much for it. |
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jonnybravo
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| Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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| tox wrote: | | jonnybravo wrote: | | tox wrote: | | jonnybravo wrote: |
Yep, it's the same thing I brought up. There's no source material to pull from. These are TV/Movie caliber writers at their core. They're going to revert to what they know. Still fun as (bleep) to see everything come to pass. |
Right. The show's been very conventional for a while. I view it more like a blockbuster and less like the subversive show from the first 3-4 seasons, and by those standards this is fun as hell.
I'm also more forgiving of stuff like Dany showing up last second (against chronology) when there are consequences to her actions. Doesn't feel like a total deus ex machina. (Though I'm totally on board with deus ex machina revolving around Jon now, like Benjen saving him -- I'm convinced that his story is written with the intention of the Lord of Light watching out for him, so a deus ex machina works as it did in Greek tragedies.) |
Yeah and I don't want to be dimissive with what the writers are having to do either. They hvae a year to basically put this all together. They simply don't have the time to lace in layers of nuance and top tier dialogue in addition to hitting the main plot points. |
Yep! I've thought about this a lot. GRRM has taken 6 years and he hasn't managed to write a convincing and cohesive narrative based on the latest book material. We can't expect TV writers to be able to put something together that'll be as intricately woven as the book material in a year. Not to mention the limited amount of showtime in Seasons 7 & 8 for exposition.
I still think the writing can be cleaned up a bit, but I don't blame them too much for it. |
Not sure if you're a book reader but book 4 started to show cracks and 5 pretty much felt like it fell off the rails. GoT's masterpiece of cohesion fell to pieces. He basically rewrote 5 because IIRC timelines and such were falling incongruent.
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