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adkindo
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:15 pm    Post subject:

SweetP wrote:
Who would now be Democrats.


you have no idea what they would have become....just trying to rewrite history to how you prefer it was....they were Republicans.


SweetP wrote:
In my lifetime (and yours unless you quite elderly), the Republicans are the party on the wrong side of history.


Sorry, but your lifetime is not "history", therefore you cannot possibly make such a claim. Can you give me an example of where the Republican Party was on the wrong side of history?


Last edited by adkindo on Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:35 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:16 pm    Post subject:

Mother of Charlottesville Victim Heather Heyer Says She’s Received Death Threats

Must be those very fine people who were marching with the Nazis and KKK that Trump identified, probably the ones in the MAGA caps.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:17 pm    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
SweetP wrote:
Who would now be Democrats.


you have no idea what they would have become....just trying to rewrite history to how you prefer it was....they were Democrats.


SweetP wrote:
In my lifetime (and yours unless you quite elderly), the Republicans are the party on the wrong side of history.


Sorry, but your lifetime is not "history", therefore you cannot possibly make such a claim. Can you give me an example of where the Republican Party was on the wrong side of history?



Of course my lifetime is history. I'm not young, decades past are history.

I can make a list but most importantly they are on the wrong side right now.
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DaMuleRules
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:20 pm    Post subject:

So a muslim terrorist drives a car into a crowd of people in Spain and Trump condemns the terrorist.

An American Nazi drives a car into a crowd of people here and Trump blames the crowd.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:40 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
So a muslim terrorist drives a car into a crowd of people in Spain and Trump condemns the terrorist.

An American Nazi drives a car into a crowd of people here and Trump blames the crowd.


Well if you believe, as Trump apparently does, that only Muslims, Latinos, and Blacks can be terrorists it makes perfect sense.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:42 pm    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:


the point is trying to pass complete judgement on the moral standing of a historical figure utilizing a modern moral compass is often a futile effort...



Then I call into question your understanding of history. What we call the Civil War was merely the time period that spanned the phase of armed conflict between armies. The result was the emancipation of slaves. It wasn't the end of the conflict, and it certainly didn't result in the freedom of black people.

Your lack of understanding of history explains why your moral compass is askew.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:43 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
So a muslim terrorist drives a car into a crowd of people in Spain and Trump condemns the terrorist.

An American Nazi drives a car into a crowd of people here and Trump blames the crowd.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 9:26 pm    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
ani007 wrote:
adkindo wrote:
LakerSanity wrote:
Watched Hannity last night. They aren't merely defending Trump, they are praising him for standing up to the left and complimenting him for the courage he has shown to call out "all sides." They argue the slippery slope of taking down monuments. If you watched Don Lemon on CNN last night, when Ana Cabrera was on he also had the former governor of Arizona on - she basically repeated, although less eloquently, the same Hannity talking points.

I've seen some of the comments from some on Fox news. However, other than maybe a tweet from John McCain, I have yet to see any GOP reps/Senators slamming Trump since yesterday, and I'm sure all the radio voices out there are praising him just like Hannity did. Much like the various shocking moments during the campaign, this may be another example of where anti-trumpers and those on the left are shocked, but the Republican base doesn't see anything wrong.

I get that his approval ratings keep dropping to all-time lows, but all that matters is who votes. More importantly, will this change who people vote for in the midterms? Trump is President for 3.5 more years - nothing changes for now unless the Democrats can somehow find a way to take back the Senate and/or the House. I really don't know if the needle for likely voters has been moved much, or enough to overcome gerrymandering.


I refuse to watch Hannity, but on Special Report, Krauthammer went after him.....

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/450514/charles-krauthammer-trumps-charlottesville-comments-moral-disgrace


saw it. respect went up for his eloquent succinct straightforward no bs analysis.

fox viewers must feel like i do when i see a CNN infotainment hack like jeffrey lord when they watch Shep Smith or Chris Wallace. i liked when jon stewart told chris wallace, yeah you're pretty much the outlier and here for the semblence of a real news channel to balance out all the crazies like hannity.


Krauthammer, Brett Baer, George Will (when he was on), Brit Hume are some of my favorites.....pretty indifferent to Shep and Chris Wallace. Refuse to watch Hannity, Eric Bolling and OReilly (when he was on) ....and I gag when the constantly uninformed Kimberly Guilfoyle speaks.

The truth is I have not watched anything much since Trump won. I was the guy kicking and screaming to anyone that would listen about this guy when liberal media was giving him almost 24 hour coverage and constant free media. Many liberals and the liberal media wanted Trump to win the Primary because they thought he would be easily defeated. (I honestly thought he had no chance) I honestly feel liberals and the liberal media are partially responsible for creating the monster they now despise. I personally am a Jeb Bush/Marco Rubio Florida Republican.....and felt strongly that Rubio could have ran and extremely positive and uplifting campaign that would have won......if not for Trump.


not so sure Rubio would've beat Hillary. the elections showed people were tired of the establishment candidates. That explains the popularity of Bernie and Trump during the elections. My gut instinct tells me if it were Rubio vs Hillary, Hillary wins. Rubio offered nothing for the middle class.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 9:51 pm    Post subject:

Republicans have rallied around Trump, forgetting that he's failing them in regards to just about every promise he's made to those same people. Ironically, while once again being a completely horrible human being, this whole issue buys him time. The base is too busy defending themselves against being called racist and supporters of racists (or, in some case, defending their and Trumps' rights to be racist) to remember how vastly Trump has failed them even by their standards.

Bannon may be right that identity politics works for them because it rallies and energizes their base. The only hope then is that base is dwindling or some might be leaving it. That's probably too much to ask. Doing the right thing here - calling Trump out and focusing on this issue - may not be the smart thing to do here from a political perspective.

My hope is that, since there was Russia fatigue setting in, that this issue and maybe North Korea can distract from the Russia issue long enough that when it comes back (which it will thanks to Mueller, who's job is affected at all by Charlottesville) the average voter will be ready to talk and care about Russia again.
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kikanga
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 3:05 am    Post subject:

Quote:
LibrarianShipwreck‏ @libshipwreck

As a historian the hardest part of my job is that I am constantly building statues, as statues are the only way people learn about history.

Little known fact, but most of what you learn when you pursue a PhD in history is actually just how to build and install statues.

Just the other day I was discussing dissertation ideas with my advisor and she said "pick a different topic, there isn't a statue of this."

The phrase "pre-history" derives from a German word meaning "periods of history that didn't leave statues behind so who knows what happened"

Last year I did a ton of archival research only to have a conference reject my paper for: "failure to cite a statue." Harsh but fair!

How do we know that Don Quixote & Rocky are real historic figures, and not fictional characters? Easy: because there are statues of them!

There are some who ask "which came first: the history or the statue?" But those people are philosophers and you should probably ignore them.

If a statue comes down it becomes impossible to know what happened in the past. No historian will dare make a claim without statue evidence.

Historians have been calling for a return to "statue based" education for years, but skills like "looking at statues" have been devalued.

In conclusion: taking down statues permanently alters the space-time continuum (unless you build a statue of the other statue coming down).



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 3:11 am    Post subject:

Quote:
Two days after Donald Trump announced his presidential candidacy, Dylann Roof shot and killed nine African American worshipers at the historically black Emanuel A.M.E. Church in Charleston, S.C. Pictures of Roof holding Confederate flags soon surfaced — and so, too, did calls from Democratic and Republican politicians to remove the flag and other Confederate symbols from government property.

Trump was one of those politicians. Within a week of the shooting, Trump came out in favor of taking the Confederate flag down from South Carolina’s Capitol, adding, “I think they should put it in the museum and let it go.”

http://tinyurl.com/y7a8lnll
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adkindo
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 4:15 am    Post subject:

angrypuppy wrote:
adkindo wrote:


the point is trying to pass complete judgement on the moral standing of a historical figure utilizing a modern moral compass is often a futile effort...



Then I call into question your understanding of history. What we call the Civil War was merely the time period that spanned the phase of armed conflict between armies. The result was the emancipation of slaves. It wasn't the end of the conflict, and it certainly didn't result in the freedom of black people.

Your lack of understanding of history explains why your moral compass is askew.


this is a ridiculous post and weak attempt to personally attack me
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adkindo
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 4:18 am    Post subject:

Goldenwest wrote:
adkindo wrote:
ani007 wrote:
adkindo wrote:
LakerSanity wrote:
Watched Hannity last night. They aren't merely defending Trump, they are praising him for standing up to the left and complimenting him for the courage he has shown to call out "all sides." They argue the slippery slope of taking down monuments. If you watched Don Lemon on CNN last night, when Ana Cabrera was on he also had the former governor of Arizona on - she basically repeated, although less eloquently, the same Hannity talking points.

I've seen some of the comments from some on Fox news. However, other than maybe a tweet from John McCain, I have yet to see any GOP reps/Senators slamming Trump since yesterday, and I'm sure all the radio voices out there are praising him just like Hannity did. Much like the various shocking moments during the campaign, this may be another example of where anti-trumpers and those on the left are shocked, but the Republican base doesn't see anything wrong.

I get that his approval ratings keep dropping to all-time lows, but all that matters is who votes. More importantly, will this change who people vote for in the midterms? Trump is President for 3.5 more years - nothing changes for now unless the Democrats can somehow find a way to take back the Senate and/or the House. I really don't know if the needle for likely voters has been moved much, or enough to overcome gerrymandering.


I refuse to watch Hannity, but on Special Report, Krauthammer went after him.....

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/450514/charles-krauthammer-trumps-charlottesville-comments-moral-disgrace


saw it. respect went up for his eloquent succinct straightforward no bs analysis.

fox viewers must feel like i do when i see a CNN infotainment hack like jeffrey lord when they watch Shep Smith or Chris Wallace. i liked when jon stewart told chris wallace, yeah you're pretty much the outlier and here for the semblence of a real news channel to balance out all the crazies like hannity.


Krauthammer, Brett Baer, George Will (when he was on), Brit Hume are some of my favorites.....pretty indifferent to Shep and Chris Wallace. Refuse to watch Hannity, Eric Bolling and OReilly (when he was on) ....and I gag when the constantly uninformed Kimberly Guilfoyle speaks.

The truth is I have not watched anything much since Trump won. I was the guy kicking and screaming to anyone that would listen about this guy when liberal media was giving him almost 24 hour coverage and constant free media. Many liberals and the liberal media wanted Trump to win the Primary because they thought he would be easily defeated. (I honestly thought he had no chance) I honestly feel liberals and the liberal media are partially responsible for creating the monster they now despise. I personally am a Jeb Bush/Marco Rubio Florida Republican.....and felt strongly that Rubio could have ran and extremely positive and uplifting campaign that would have won......if not for Trump.


not so sure Rubio would've beat Hillary. the elections showed people were tired of the establishment candidates. That explains the popularity of Bernie and Trump during the elections. My gut instinct tells me if it were Rubio vs Hillary, Hillary wins. Rubio offered nothing for the middle class.


I disagree....Hillary was an extremely flawed candidate that excited almost no voter.....I think Rubio would have easily cleared her....but in the end, its all speculation
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adkindo
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 4:36 am    Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:
Republicans have rallied around Trump, forgetting that he's failing them in regards to just about every promise he's made to those same people. Ironically, while once again being a completely horrible human being, this whole issue buys him time. The base is too busy defending themselves against being called racist and supporters of racists (or, in some case, defending their and Trumps' rights to be racist) to remember how vastly Trump has failed them even by their standards.

Bannon may be right that identity politics works for them because it rallies and energizes their base. The only hope then is that base is dwindling or some might be leaving it. That's probably too much to ask. Doing the right thing here - calling Trump out and focusing on this issue - may not be the smart thing to do here from a political perspective.

My hope is that, since there was Russia fatigue setting in, that this issue and maybe North Korea can distract from the Russia issue long enough that when it comes back (which it will thanks to Mueller, who's job is affected at all by Charlottesville) the average voter will be ready to talk and care about Russia again.


some advice from the other side.....began focusing on your candidates. First, I honestly feel there is no meat on the Russia issue, but irregardless, if you want to take back the White House, it will be nearly impossible to do it on the "we aint Trump" campaign. You can win mid terms with that message, and Republicans were great at "we aint Obama", but look what happened when they tried that in the Presidential Elections....they were not even really close. Same message, same voters, but it just does not work.

Like it or not, people came out to vote for Trump for reasons.....maybe they wanted a wall, maybe they agreed with his pro business stance....hell, maybe some of them were simply racist.....but for better or for worse, people were voting for him much more than they were against Clinton. I can honestly tell you that in the region I am from.....Southern WV and Coal Country.....they lined up around the block to vote for him because they thought he would roll back environmental regulations to allow their economy to recover.

Just saying from the outside, it seems like the Dem's are falling in the same trap as Republicans did by thinking they could simply win because they were the other party. Incumbents are difficult to beat....even the ones with low approval numbers.....and the Democrats need to start telling the country what their message is, and quit focusing so much on Trump sucking. In the end, the voters that will cross party lines are really only concerned with
what's in it for me and my family now and in the future.
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angrypuppy
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:04 am    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
angrypuppy wrote:
adkindo wrote:


the point is trying to pass complete judgement on the moral standing of a historical figure utilizing a modern moral compass is often a futile effort...



Then I call into question your understanding of history. What we call the Civil War was merely the time period that spanned the phase of armed conflict between armies. The result was the emancipation of slaves. It wasn't the end of the conflict, and it certainly didn't result in the freedom of black people.

Your lack of understanding of history explains why your moral compass is askew.



this is a ridiculous post and weak attempt to personally attack me




It's not ridiculous, you're the one who brought up morality in an attempt to justify racism. Those statues are offensive and part of the Lost Cause revisionism within US history. The irony is that you feel victimized by my post, and that you feel that others who disagree with you are somehow oppressive. That's rather entertaining, when you consider that those statues glorify those who, by force of arms, continue the enslavement of black people. Those statues were erected well after the Civil War, during the reign of Jim Crow laws, voting rights restrictions, and active KKK lynchings.

What you don't understand is that the Civil War was just the armed phase of the conflict. The fight for freedom continued afterward, and in many ways the white southerners turned the Civil War into a war of attrition. They lost the ability to enslave, but they continued to limit the liberties that other free men in this country enjoyed. Those statues are all part and parcel an attempt to romanticize that movement, and just like the state flags, they were a conscious reminder that the white south was going to continue to do whatever they wished, law and morality be damned.

That's why I question your moral compass, and your understanding of history.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:15 am    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
LakerSanity wrote:
Republicans have rallied around Trump, forgetting that he's failing them in regards to just about every promise he's made to those same people. Ironically, while once again being a completely horrible human being, this whole issue buys him time. The base is too busy defending themselves against being called racist and supporters of racists (or, in some case, defending their and Trumps' rights to be racist) to remember how vastly Trump has failed them even by their standards.

Bannon may be right that identity politics works for them because it rallies and energizes their base. The only hope then is that base is dwindling or some might be leaving it. That's probably too much to ask. Doing the right thing here - calling Trump out and focusing on this issue - may not be the smart thing to do here from a political perspective.

My hope is that, since there was Russia fatigue setting in, that this issue and maybe North Korea can distract from the Russia issue long enough that when it comes back (which it will thanks to Mueller, who's job is affected at all by Charlottesville) the average voter will be ready to talk and care about Russia again.


some advice from the other side.....began focusing on your candidates. First, I honestly feel there is no meat on the Russia issue, but irregardless, if you want to take back the White House, it will be nearly impossible to do it on the "we aint Trump" campaign. You can win mid terms with that message, and Republicans were great at "we aint Obama", but look what happened when they tried that in the Presidential Elections....they were not even really close. Same message, same voters, but it just does not work.

Like it or not, people came out to vote for Trump for reasons.....maybe they wanted a wall, maybe they agreed with his pro business stance....hell, maybe some of them were simply racist.....but for better or for worse, people were voting for him much more than they were against Clinton. I can honestly tell you that in the region I am from.....Southern WV and Coal Country.....they lined up around the block to vote for him because they thought he would roll back environmental regulations to allow their economy to recover.

Just saying from the outside, it seems like the Dem's are falling in the same trap as Republicans did by thinking they could simply win because they were the other party. Incumbents are difficult to beat....even the ones with low approval numbers.....and the Democrats need to start telling the country what their message is, and quit focusing so much on Trump sucking. In the end, the voters that will cross party lines are really only concerned with
what's in it for me and my family now and in the future.


65 million vs 62 million.
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adkindo
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:16 am    Post subject:

angrypuppy wrote:
adkindo wrote:
angrypuppy wrote:
adkindo wrote:


the point is trying to pass complete judgement on the moral standing of a historical figure utilizing a modern moral compass is often a futile effort...



Then I call into question your understanding of history. What we call the Civil War was merely the time period that spanned the phase of armed conflict between armies. The result was the emancipation of slaves. It wasn't the end of the conflict, and it certainly didn't result in the freedom of black people.

Your lack of understanding of history explains why your moral compass is askew.



this is a ridiculous post and weak attempt to personally attack me




It's not ridiculous, you're the one who brought up morality in an attempt to justify racism. Those statues are offensive and part of the Lost Cause revisionism within US history. The irony is that you feel victimized by my post, and that you feel that others who disagree with you are somehow oppressive. That's rather entertaining, when you consider that those statues glorify those who, by force of arms, continue the enslavement of black people. Those statues were erected well after the Civil War, during the reign of Jim Crow laws, voting rights restrictions, and active KKK lynchings.

What you don't understand is that the Civil War was just the armed phase of the conflict. The fight for freedom continued afterward, and in many ways the white southerners turned the Civil War into a war of attrition. They lost the ability to enslave, but they continued to limit the liberties that other free men in this country enjoyed. Those statues are all part and parcel an attempt to romanticize that movement, and just like the state flags, they were a conscious reminder that the white south was going to continue to do whatever they wished, law and morality be damned.

That's why I question your moral compass, and your understanding of history.


your literally throwing up straw men and knocking them down attempting to sound intelligent. I have not at this point justified or supported keeping any monument, and been clear that they should come down in the same manner they went up......based on local decisions. Why are you trying to tell me irrelevant information about the Civil War and Slavery when my comments did not address or counter your claims? Who are you to question my moral compass or understanding of history?

I make a very solid effort to comment and debate everyone in this forum with some level of respect, but your post is simply condescending. I welcome discussion, but if this is your approach, please just move on to discussions with others.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:18 am    Post subject:

encina1 wrote:
adkindo wrote:
LakerSanity wrote:
Republicans have rallied around Trump, forgetting that he's failing them in regards to just about every promise he's made to those same people. Ironically, while once again being a completely horrible human being, this whole issue buys him time. The base is too busy defending themselves against being called racist and supporters of racists (or, in some case, defending their and Trumps' rights to be racist) to remember how vastly Trump has failed them even by their standards.

Bannon may be right that identity politics works for them because it rallies and energizes their base. The only hope then is that base is dwindling or some might be leaving it. That's probably too much to ask. Doing the right thing here - calling Trump out and focusing on this issue - may not be the smart thing to do here from a political perspective.

My hope is that, since there was Russia fatigue setting in, that this issue and maybe North Korea can distract from the Russia issue long enough that when it comes back (which it will thanks to Mueller, who's job is affected at all by Charlottesville) the average voter will be ready to talk and care about Russia again.


some advice from the other side.....began focusing on your candidates. First, I honestly feel there is no meat on the Russia issue, but irregardless, if you want to take back the White House, it will be nearly impossible to do it on the "we aint Trump" campaign. You can win mid terms with that message, and Republicans were great at "we aint Obama", but look what happened when they tried that in the Presidential Elections....they were not even really close. Same message, same voters, but it just does not work.

Like it or not, people came out to vote for Trump for reasons.....maybe they wanted a wall, maybe they agreed with his pro business stance....hell, maybe some of them were simply racist.....but for better or for worse, people were voting for him much more than they were against Clinton. I can honestly tell you that in the region I am from.....Southern WV and Coal Country.....they lined up around the block to vote for him because they thought he would roll back environmental regulations to allow their economy to recover.

Just saying from the outside, it seems like the Dem's are falling in the same trap as Republicans did by thinking they could simply win because they were the other party. Incumbents are difficult to beat....even the ones with low approval numbers.....and the Democrats need to start telling the country what their message is, and quit focusing so much on Trump sucking. In the end, the voters that will cross party lines are really only concerned with
what's in it for me and my family now and in the future.


65 million vs 62 million.


I am speaking specifically of the 62 Million.....Trumps voters were mostly voting for him. i am not trying to justify those votes, but only pointing out how I have seen my party fail in the past.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:23 am    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
angrypuppy wrote:
adkindo wrote:
angrypuppy wrote:
adkindo wrote:


the point is trying to pass complete judgement on the moral standing of a historical figure utilizing a modern moral compass is often a futile effort...



Then I call into question your understanding of history. What we call the Civil War was merely the time period that spanned the phase of armed conflict between armies. The result was the emancipation of slaves. It wasn't the end of the conflict, and it certainly didn't result in the freedom of black people.

Your lack of understanding of history explains why your moral compass is askew.



this is a ridiculous post and weak attempt to personally attack me




It's not ridiculous, you're the one who brought up morality in an attempt to justify racism. Those statues are offensive and part of the Lost Cause revisionism within US history. The irony is that you feel victimized by my post, and that you feel that others who disagree with you are somehow oppressive. That's rather entertaining, when you consider that those statues glorify those who, by force of arms, continue the enslavement of black people. Those statues were erected well after the Civil War, during the reign of Jim Crow laws, voting rights restrictions, and active KKK lynchings.

What you don't understand is that the Civil War was just the armed phase of the conflict. The fight for freedom continued afterward, and in many ways the white southerners turned the Civil War into a war of attrition. They lost the ability to enslave, but they continued to limit the liberties that other free men in this country enjoyed. Those statues are all part and parcel an attempt to romanticize that movement, and just like the state flags, they were a conscious reminder that the white south was going to continue to do whatever they wished, law and morality be damned.

That's why I question your moral compass, and your understanding of history.


your literally throwing up straw men and knocking them down attempting to sound intelligent. I have not at this point justified or supported keeping any monument, and been clear that they should come down in the same manner they went up......based on local decisions. Why are you trying to tell me irrelevant information about the Civil War and Slavery when my comments did not address or counter your claims? Who are you to question my moral compass or understanding of history?

I make a very solid effort to comment and debate everyone in this forum with some level of respect, but your post is simply condescending. I welcome discussion, but if this is your approach, please just move on to discussions with others.



Feigning ignorance as to your true position and discounting the history behind Civil War monuments is disingenuous. Given that your best defense is to portray yourself as being a victim, I will ignore your posts.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:33 am    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
encina1 wrote:
adkindo wrote:
LakerSanity wrote:
Republicans have rallied around Trump, forgetting that he's failing them in regards to just about every promise he's made to those same people. Ironically, while once again being a completely horrible human being, this whole issue buys him time. The base is too busy defending themselves against being called racist and supporters of racists (or, in some case, defending their and Trumps' rights to be racist) to remember how vastly Trump has failed them even by their standards.

Bannon may be right that identity politics works for them because it rallies and energizes their base. The only hope then is that base is dwindling or some might be leaving it. That's probably too much to ask. Doing the right thing here - calling Trump out and focusing on this issue - may not be the smart thing to do here from a political perspective.

My hope is that, since there was Russia fatigue setting in, that this issue and maybe North Korea can distract from the Russia issue long enough that when it comes back (which it will thanks to Mueller, who's job is affected at all by Charlottesville) the average voter will be ready to talk and care about Russia again.


some advice from the other side.....began focusing on your candidates. First, I honestly feel there is no meat on the Russia issue, but irregardless, if you want to take back the White House, it will be nearly impossible to do it on the "we aint Trump" campaign. You can win mid terms with that message, and Republicans were great at "we aint Obama", but look what happened when they tried that in the Presidential Elections....they were not even really close. Same message, same voters, but it just does not work.

Like it or not, people came out to vote for Trump for reasons.....maybe they wanted a wall, maybe they agreed with his pro business stance....hell, maybe some of them were simply racist.....but for better or for worse, people were voting for him much more than they were against Clinton. I can honestly tell you that in the region I am from.....Southern WV and Coal Country.....they lined up around the block to vote for him because they thought he would roll back environmental regulations to allow their economy to recover.

Just saying from the outside, it seems like the Dem's are falling in the same trap as Republicans did by thinking they could simply win because they were the other party. Incumbents are difficult to beat....even the ones with low approval numbers.....and the Democrats need to start telling the country what their message is, and quit focusing so much on Trump sucking. In the end, the voters that will cross party lines are really only concerned with
what's in it for me and my family now and in the future.


65 million vs 62 million.


I am speaking specifically of the 62 Million.....Trumps voters were mostly voting for him. i am not trying to justify those votes, but only pointing out how I have seen my party fail in the past.


What?

Of the people who voted for Trump, most voted for Trump? And the people who voted for him are more than the people who voted for Clinton?

I am a pretty smart guy, took my logics courses in college, but this argument I don't get.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:36 am    Post subject:

angrypuppy wrote:



Feigning ignorance as to your true position and discounting the history behind Civil War monuments is disingenuous. Given that your best defense is to portray yourself as being a victim, I will ignore your posts.


so I am pretending to be ignorant of my true position, but you know what it really is? Where did I speak or make a single comment on the history of the Civil War monuments? I am not a victim of anything, but I will not tolerate a forum member attacking me personally and being rude without any provocation.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:42 am    Post subject:

encina1 wrote:
adkindo wrote:
encina1 wrote:
adkindo wrote:
LakerSanity wrote:
Republicans have rallied around Trump, forgetting that he's failing them in regards to just about every promise he's made to those same people. Ironically, while once again being a completely horrible human being, this whole issue buys him time. The base is too busy defending themselves against being called racist and supporters of racists (or, in some case, defending their and Trumps' rights to be racist) to remember how vastly Trump has failed them even by their standards.

Bannon may be right that identity politics works for them because it rallies and energizes their base. The only hope then is that base is dwindling or some might be leaving it. That's probably too much to ask. Doing the right thing here - calling Trump out and focusing on this issue - may not be the smart thing to do here from a political perspective.

My hope is that, since there was Russia fatigue setting in, that this issue and maybe North Korea can distract from the Russia issue long enough that when it comes back (which it will thanks to Mueller, who's job is affected at all by Charlottesville) the average voter will be ready to talk and care about Russia again.


some advice from the other side.....began focusing on your candidates. First, I honestly feel there is no meat on the Russia issue, but irregardless, if you want to take back the White House, it will be nearly impossible to do it on the "we aint Trump" campaign. You can win mid terms with that message, and Republicans were great at "we aint Obama", but look what happened when they tried that in the Presidential Elections....they were not even really close. Same message, same voters, but it just does not work.

Like it or not, people came out to vote for Trump for reasons.....maybe they wanted a wall, maybe they agreed with his pro business stance....hell, maybe some of them were simply racist.....but for better or for worse, people were voting for him much more than they were against Clinton. I can honestly tell you that in the region I am from.....Southern WV and Coal Country.....they lined up around the block to vote for him because they thought he would roll back environmental regulations to allow their economy to recover.

Just saying from the outside, it seems like the Dem's are falling in the same trap as Republicans did by thinking they could simply win because they were the other party. Incumbents are difficult to beat....even the ones with low approval numbers.....and the Democrats need to start telling the country what their message is, and quit focusing so much on Trump sucking. In the end, the voters that will cross party lines are really only concerned with
what's in it for me and my family now and in the future.


65 million vs 62 million.


I am speaking specifically of the 62 Million.....Trumps voters were mostly voting for him. i am not trying to justify those votes, but only pointing out how I have seen my party fail in the past.


What?

Of the people who voted for Trump, most voted for Trump? And the people who voted for him are more than the people who voted for Clinton?

I am a pretty smart guy, took my logics courses in college, but this argument I don't get.


voters often vote against a candidate....that is their motivation in voting if more focused on who they are not voting for instead of who they actually cast a vote for. In 2012, I cast a vote for Mitt Romney, but that vote was as much if not more motivated as a vote against O'Bama in comparison to supporting Mitt Romney. Trump had a significantly larger % of people coming out to vote for him than a traditional election in my opinion, while I would guess a material amount of votes that Hillary collected was motivated by voting against Trump. This is all my opinion....but does it make sense now on what I was trying to say?
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 6:31 am    Post subject:

angrypuppy wrote:
That's why I question your moral compass, and your understanding of history.


AP, you can do that privately or outside of this thread, but not in here. This thread is about posts and discussions, not posters. A poster can have whatever moral compass they want, good or bad, and whatever understanding of history, or lack thereof, so long as they are respectful and obey the rules of this thread, they can post all they want. Same goes for you. Address the post and not the poster please.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 6:36 am    Post subject:

[This thread is not about discussing nor attacking posters. Its about discussing news, topics and analysis. Please stick to that. - LS]
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 6:37 am    Post subject:

I think about 2/3 of the Trump voters voted for him and, of those, probably 90% would have voted for any Republican candidate. The remaining 1/3, IMO, voted for Trump because either a) he wasn't Hillary or b) because they thought "why not?" and just wanted a non-politician. That group has likely abandoned him and will be voting against him in 2020. If so, that group will be large enough to swing the election to the Dems.

I'm not concerned about Trump getting a second term. He won't. In fact, he may not even finish his first term. The larger issue is the Senate and the House. With gerry mandering and how most liberal voters congregate geographically in the same cities/states, I'm not sure there is a fix for it. One fix would be to convert Republican voters to democrats. Surely, identity politics won't do it. Still, identity politics or no identity politics, I'm not sure in today's climate if that is possible no matter how the Dems approach it.

The other fix is to lower conservative voter turnout. If the base and other conservative voters become disillusioned, they may just not turn out. That's what usually happens when one party runs the government anyway, it usually swings. If enough GOP voters just stay home, that might be enough to change some elections. The less happy they are with Trump, the more likely that will happen. Russia is one way to get there, but I don't think identity politics is because that's about much more than Trump. Another way to get there is to watch the Republicans (and Trump's) ongoing failure to pass any real legislation all the while Democrats propose alternatives. Democrats need to start talking more about what healthcare plan they would pursue, what infrastructure plan they would pursue, what tax plan they would pursue, etc. and how they can govern, but the Republicans cannot.

The last fix is it increase progressive/liberal voter turnout. That is naturally going to happen, especially in 2020, if not 2018, but that will likely not be enough on its own to really swing the local or state elections. Some of the above will have to happen too.
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