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venturalakersfan
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 Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:10 am Post subject: |
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| TheBlackMamba wrote: | | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | | The Russell, Booker, KAT trio is going to be killer in a few years. |
And they'd get killed on defense. That back court would be an atrocity on D. |
Yes, because young players can never improve defensively.
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levon
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| Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:13 am Post subject: |
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| anpherknee wrote: | | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | | The Russell, Booker, KAT trio is going to be killer in a few years. |
dis tew minny fax rite hyear |
Who knows, that could maybe even include Simmons with that Montverde connection. |
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TheBlackMamba
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| Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:17 am Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | TheBlackMamba wrote: | | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | | The Russell, Booker, KAT trio is going to be killer in a few years. |
And they'd get killed on defense. That back court would be an atrocity on D. |
Yes, because young players can never improve defensively. |
Sorry man, I forgot that it's very common for slow-footed young perimeter players to magically morph into plus defenders later in their careers. |
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levon
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| Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:23 am Post subject: |
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Also coincidentally
| Quote: | | To shut down the free flow of ideas between GMs and agents would be for the NBA to try to pretend to be something it's not to appease owners who feel like they should have total control over their players. |
| Quote: | | The NBA has long been a paranoid business. Teams view their scouting reports as sacred intellectual property, even though so many squads run similar plays. |
| Quote: | If a team out there really wants to lure LeBron James in the summer of 2018, when he could potentially hit free agency, what would stop it from starting that process now?
Multiple league sources suggested to ESPN that a major motivating factor in the Lakers' signing Kentavious Caldwell-Pope to a one-year, $18 million deal this offseason was because Caldwell-Pope is repped by Rich Paul, the same agent as James.
Now the Lakers can spend a year communicating with Paul, showing him how they run their organization, sharing meals, etc., and it will all be protected under the Caldwell-Pope prism, even if it could prove influential as to what James ultimately decides to do.
As for teams being even more covert in their preemptive pursuit of James, a league source familiar with James' past free agencies said more teams would view it as a "waste of time" because James is known for wanting to have the control rather than be wooed. |
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/20525040/nba-fine-tampering-fact-life-nba |
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:30 am Post subject: |
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| levon wrote: | Also coincidentally
| Quote: | | To shut down the free flow of ideas between GMs and agents would be for the NBA to try to pretend to be something it's not to appease owners who feel like they should have total control over their players. |
| Quote: | | The NBA has long been a paranoid business. Teams view their scouting reports as sacred intellectual property, even though so many squads run similar plays. |
| Quote: | If a team out there really wants to lure LeBron James in the summer of 2018, when he could potentially hit free agency, what would stop it from starting that process now?
Multiple league sources suggested to ESPN that a major motivating factor in the Lakers' signing Kentavious Caldwell-Pope to a one-year, $18 million deal this offseason was because Caldwell-Pope is repped by Rich Paul, the same agent as James.
Now the Lakers can spend a year communicating with Paul, showing him how they run their organization, sharing meals, etc., and it will all be protected under the Caldwell-Pope prism, even if it could prove influential as to what James ultimately decides to do.
As for teams being even more covert in their preemptive pursuit of James, a league source familiar with James' past free agencies said more teams would view it as a "waste of time" because James is known for wanting to have the control rather than be wooed. |
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/20525040/nba-fine-tampering-fact-life-nba |
As for the last item, wouldn't the Lakers trading DLO and bad mouthing him after the fact show Mintz how the FO operates? Then maybe he steers Paul and Randle away from here? Who knows, but what is known is that Laker tampering is on everyone's mind.
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:51 am Post subject: |
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| levon wrote: | | What I'm saying is it's not about basketball, movies, or ownership stake although that might happen in some capacity, but there's something more to it in terms of player - organization relations that's going to be unique. I get the sense that's what both parties are striving for. |
Why would the Lakers be striving for this? The Lakers should have zero interest in ceding control to a player. I think you're stretching here.
| levon wrote: | | And Lebron made a phone call to Love the day after he was traded to the Cavs, but let's be honest, he doesn't sign without the confidence that a 3rd all-star is joining him. I find it more likely than not they discussed it before. |
So what? The TWolves still had to trade him. Lebron had no power to make that happen. Lebron could call Love and talk to him, but that accomplishes nothing. Love had already been the subject of trade rumors before Lebron went back to Cleveland.
| levon wrote: | | Whether or not Lebron is actively recruiting during FA or scheming years ahead, imo he's the ultimate medium for a FO into the fraternity of players, and that value is underappreciated here. |
I don't know why you think that it is underappreciated. There are bunches of posters who are counting on Lebron coming to LA and building a new superteam. The reality is that Lebron would have only limited ability to make anything happen. The most optimistic scenario, in my opinion, is that he persuades Westbrook to opt out and come here. I don't see any other pieces that would be game changers.
| levon wrote: | | Also very curious that a story comes out in FA that Lebron isn't actively recruiting to the Cavs anymore (who could he possibly recruit this season with that cap room). Shows there's a strong expectation of Lebron to do that, whereas in contrast Kobe would just kind of sit in at FA meetings or let the calls come to him. |
That's the point. |
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pmacla
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| Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:53 am Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | levon wrote: | Also coincidentally
| Quote: | | To shut down the free flow of ideas between GMs and agents would be for the NBA to try to pretend to be something it's not to appease owners who feel like they should have total control over their players. |
| Quote: | | The NBA has long been a paranoid business. Teams view their scouting reports as sacred intellectual property, even though so many squads run similar plays. |
| Quote: | If a team out there really wants to lure LeBron James in the summer of 2018, when he could potentially hit free agency, what would stop it from starting that process now?
Multiple league sources suggested to ESPN that a major motivating factor in the Lakers' signing Kentavious Caldwell-Pope to a one-year, $18 million deal this offseason was because Caldwell-Pope is repped by Rich Paul, the same agent as James.
Now the Lakers can spend a year communicating with Paul, showing him how they run their organization, sharing meals, etc., and it will all be protected under the Caldwell-Pope prism, even if it could prove influential as to what James ultimately decides to do.
As for teams being even more covert in their preemptive pursuit of James, a league source familiar with James' past free agencies said more teams would view it as a "waste of time" because James is known for wanting to have the control rather than be wooed. |
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/20525040/nba-fine-tampering-fact-life-nba |
As for the last item, wouldn't the Lakers trading DLO and bad mouthing him after the fact show Mintz how the FO operates? Then maybe he steers Paul and Randle away from here? Who knows, but what is known is that Laker tampering is on everyone's mind. |
the league had to have someone confirm that Pelinka talked to Mintz specifically about George, and trading DLO and Magic's comments following could have rubbed Mintz the wrong way and he told the truth thus a $500k fine |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:55 am Post subject: |
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| levon wrote: | | You're telling me fratboy Chandler Parsons got the Mavs into trouble? Or Harden this year with Chris Paul? |
These situations are discussed at great length in the main thread on the subject. They don't support your thesis.
| levon wrote: | | Players also know who the biggest targets are in the market at which years and know they wanna play with the best. It doesn't take a direct mandate from an organization to get them talking. That's what I was saying, there's a natural tendency now more than ever to do that, and to structure contracts in such a way to leave options open. |
This has nothing to do with what I said. If a team uses a player as a surrogate, the NBA will bring down the hammer. |
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levon
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| Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:58 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: |
This has nothing to do with what I said. If a team uses a player as a surrogate, the NBA will bring down the hammer. |
I think you're misunderstanding my argument. The team doesn't have to use a player as a surrogate. Sign the right player, and the player will do recruiting work for you without any mention of it from the FO. |
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levon
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| Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:01 am Post subject: |
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| pmacla wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | levon wrote: | Also coincidentally
| Quote: | | To shut down the free flow of ideas between GMs and agents would be for the NBA to try to pretend to be something it's not to appease owners who feel like they should have total control over their players. |
| Quote: | | The NBA has long been a paranoid business. Teams view their scouting reports as sacred intellectual property, even though so many squads run similar plays. |
| Quote: | If a team out there really wants to lure LeBron James in the summer of 2018, when he could potentially hit free agency, what would stop it from starting that process now?
Multiple league sources suggested to ESPN that a major motivating factor in the Lakers' signing Kentavious Caldwell-Pope to a one-year, $18 million deal this offseason was because Caldwell-Pope is repped by Rich Paul, the same agent as James.
Now the Lakers can spend a year communicating with Paul, showing him how they run their organization, sharing meals, etc., and it will all be protected under the Caldwell-Pope prism, even if it could prove influential as to what James ultimately decides to do.
As for teams being even more covert in their preemptive pursuit of James, a league source familiar with James' past free agencies said more teams would view it as a "waste of time" because James is known for wanting to have the control rather than be wooed. |
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/20525040/nba-fine-tampering-fact-life-nba |
As for the last item, wouldn't the Lakers trading DLO and bad mouthing him after the fact show Mintz how the FO operates? Then maybe he steers Paul and Randle away from here? Who knows, but what is known is that Laker tampering is on everyone's mind. |
the league had to have someone confirm that Pelinka talked to Mintz specifically about George, and trading DLO and Magic's comments following could have rubbed Mintz the wrong way and he told the truth thus a $500k fine |
Again, this has nothing to do with Mintz. It only has to do with Rich Paul because he's Lebron's best friend. Trading D'Angelo is not just a basketball or financial move, it's also a cultural move. If your superstar FA targets don't like him and he's already been problematic within your org, wouldn't you think twice about keeping him? I have no idea what PG and Lebron think of DLo, but I'm just saying these kinds of considerations seem to be overlooked when discussing teambuilding. |
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levon
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| Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:10 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | levon wrote: | | What I'm saying is it's not about basketball, movies, or ownership stake although that might happen in some capacity, but there's something more to it in terms of player - organization relations that's going to be unique. I get the sense that's what both parties are striving for. |
Why would the Lakers be striving for this? The Lakers should have zero interest in ceding control to a player. I think you're stretching here.
| levon wrote: | | And Lebron made a phone call to Love the day after he was traded to the Cavs, but let's be honest, he doesn't sign without the confidence that a 3rd all-star is joining him. I find it more likely than not they discussed it before. |
So what? The TWolves still had to trade him. Lebron had no power to make that happen. Lebron could call Love and talk to him, but that accomplishes nothing. Love had already been the subject of trade rumors before Lebron went back to Cleveland.
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The Lakers would cede a lot of control to a player if it leads to success. Cleveland's a shining example. I don't understand why you think this is unprecedented. I just think that relationship is going to be unique.
And Love still had to re-up the next year. You honestly think there was zero relationship-building with Love before Lebron goes back home? Like does James seem like the kind of dude who doesn't plan and is like, "oh well I hope Kyrie and Wiggins works out in my absolute prime"?
I mean if you also believe he still doesn't know what he's doing in 2018, then I think our starting premises are too different to reach a real compromise. |
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:50 am Post subject: |
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| levon wrote: | | pmacla wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | levon wrote: | Also coincidentally
| Quote: | | To shut down the free flow of ideas between GMs and agents would be for the NBA to try to pretend to be something it's not to appease owners who feel like they should have total control over their players. |
| Quote: | | The NBA has long been a paranoid business. Teams view their scouting reports as sacred intellectual property, even though so many squads run similar plays. |
| Quote: | If a team out there really wants to lure LeBron James in the summer of 2018, when he could potentially hit free agency, what would stop it from starting that process now?
Multiple league sources suggested to ESPN that a major motivating factor in the Lakers' signing Kentavious Caldwell-Pope to a one-year, $18 million deal this offseason was because Caldwell-Pope is repped by Rich Paul, the same agent as James.
Now the Lakers can spend a year communicating with Paul, showing him how they run their organization, sharing meals, etc., and it will all be protected under the Caldwell-Pope prism, even if it could prove influential as to what James ultimately decides to do.
As for teams being even more covert in their preemptive pursuit of James, a league source familiar with James' past free agencies said more teams would view it as a "waste of time" because James is known for wanting to have the control rather than be wooed. |
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/20525040/nba-fine-tampering-fact-life-nba |
As for the last item, wouldn't the Lakers trading DLO and bad mouthing him after the fact show Mintz how the FO operates? Then maybe he steers Paul and Randle away from here? Who knows, but what is known is that Laker tampering is on everyone's mind. |
the league had to have someone confirm that Pelinka talked to Mintz specifically about George, and trading DLO and Magic's comments following could have rubbed Mintz the wrong way and he told the truth thus a $500k fine |
Again, this has nothing to do with Mintz. It only has to do with Rich Paul because he's Lebron's best friend. Trading D'Angelo is not just a basketball or financial move, it's also a cultural move. If your superstar FA targets don't like him and he's already been problematic within your org, wouldn't you think twice about keeping him? I have no idea what PG and Lebron think of DLo, but I'm just saying these kinds of considerations seem to be overlooked when discussing teambuilding. |
So it applies to Paul but not Mintz?
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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| levon wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: |
This has nothing to do with what I said. If a team uses a player as a surrogate, the NBA will bring down the hammer. |
I think you're misunderstanding my argument. The team doesn't have to use a player as a surrogate. Sign the right player, and the player will do recruiting work for you without any mention of it from the FO. |
You lost the thread of the discussion. Go back and read what Markjay wrote. You were responding to something that I said to someone else. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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| levon wrote: | | The Lakers would cede a lot of control to a player if it leads to success. Cleveland's a shining example. I don't understand why you think this is unprecedented. I just think that relationship is going to be unique. |
Gotta throw the BS flag on this one. We're talking about the Buss family now. Frankly, though, I doubt that any NBA owner would be eager to find himself marginalized in the way that Gilbert has been. In fact, recent events suggest to me that Gilbert has had enough.
| levon wrote: | | And Love still had to re-up the next year. You honestly think there was zero relationship-building with Love before Lebron goes back home? Like does James seem like the kind of dude who doesn't plan and is like, "oh well I hope Kyrie and Wiggins works out in my absolute prime"? |
They had a meeting in the off-season to talk about it. This was in the media at the time. I don't see how this supports your thesis, though.
| levon wrote: | | I mean if you also believe he still doesn't know what he's doing in 2018, then I think our starting premises are too different to reach a real compromise. |
Compromise is irrelevant. I'm giving my own perspective. I don't think Lebron has decided what he is going to do next summer. It's too far away for that. I expect that he is lining up his options. One option is coming to LA. Another option is staying in Cleveland. He has probably looked at other options, maybe even the Spurs, Sixers, or Knicks. Unless Lebron is a fool, which clearly he is not, he knows that there are a zillion moving parts. I would be surprised if he is committed to anything at this point. He may be leaning one way or another, but that's a different matter. |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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| levon wrote: |
Chapter 3
?
If he joins the Lakers in 2018, what kinds of shockwaves do you think it would send out in the league? . |
Anytime Lebron (or anyone of the other few top superstars in the league) move to a new team it causes shockwaves.
| levon wrote: |
What kind of power dynamic and relationship do you anticipate him having with Magilinka. |
Probably the same as he's had with his other GMs: He'll continually lobby privately and publically for them to put better players around him.
| levon wrote: |
and do you see that influencing how other orgs handle stars? . |
No.
There aren't many true superstars in the league. But because the true superstars make so much money and can move around so easily, they have more power. But their power is mitigated by the cap. I don't see anything that Lebron does from this point forward will have any effect on what other teams do their with their stars. |
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levon
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| Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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I'm losing the threads of this discussion partly because every one of my responses are split into 3 separate quotes. I think it suffices simply to reply in a paragraph in the order my questions, because this branching is as confusing as quote-training.
Anyway, I understand and respect your opinions about Lebron having a much smaller impact than I'm saying he might. That might very well be true. I'm simply stating what I think are the intentions of both the Lakers org and Lebron James, and the unique ways in which both stories align at this time.
I'm not going to put money on how it's going down. I do however think this summer was very elucidating and brought a lot of dynamics out into the open.
As for Paul George not wanting Cleveland, joined by Butler and Billups, as well as Gilbert operating on the premise that Lebron's leaving, Kyrie leaving, even Iman Shumpert wanting out (what?), supported by the overwhelming opinion in NBA front offices, it's not wild to assume there's a fire here. A cerebral man with the biggest network and brand in the NBA isn't gonna leave this decision to next June. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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| June? That's probably fair. He'll probably get serious about it around the all star break. |
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2019
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| Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 10:37 am Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | 2019 wrote: | Don't agree with the Russell stuff.. if we didn't have the Mozzy and Deng contracts, he'd be here.
I do agree that LeBron wants to change the landscape of the NBA to be a player controlled league. The NBA is just about there and that is already a big portion of LeBron leaving, KD leaving, stars demanding trades, etc. LeBron most certainly wants to raise the status of the NBA player to be able to make his own decision on where to play and for whatever reasons he sees fit.
No doubt he wants that part of his legacy and yes many teams are wayyyy behind the curve in wanting to control players. |
Disagree about DLO, once Byron's buddy took over we knew he was gone. As for the Lakers being so progressive, how is the search for that analytics position going? |
Reeks of support of the last regime, TBH.
I wanted to keep DLO. In fact, I bought a block of 18 games last year in large part because I thought DLO was going to explode. However, most fans (outside LG) and even most NBA people seem to not be crazy about DLO which makes it an easy argument that it was time to go. I don't buy that and I believe the his best is yet to come. '
But, when we got #2 (Lonzo) and Rich Paul and Aaron Mitntz are telling the Laker their guys seriously want to come here in 2018, you have to go all in on getting them. DLO was their logical cap casualty. (I could easily argue Ingram + Deng for PG was the right deal). If we either A) didn't have those contracts or B) didn't get word from those agents about future possibilities then DLO wouldn't have been traded.
But either way... he's gone and we can't really judge that deal until next summer. Worst case, we get nobody while DLO blows up and we wish we had him back. Best case: DLO does well and we get 2 superstars. Realistically, it feels like DLO makes improvements and we get 2 guys and really forget all about him while he goes on to have a solid career.
And I never brought up analytics. That is the last thing this thread is about. We're talking about the business/player relation outlook that we are about. GS is doing a masterful job of not treating their guys like players but like men/family men who have all the talent in the world to build their own legacies. |
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 10:57 am Post subject: |
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I know you didn't bring up analytics, that was a comment to the OP's assertion that the FO is "progressive". They talk about their commitment to analytics but actions do not support that.
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