Can someone explain why Steve Francis had the highest VORP (Value over Replacement Rating) in 2000-2001?

 
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CandyCanes
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:54 pm    Post subject: Can someone explain why Steve Francis had the highest VORP (Value over Replacement Rating) in 2000-2001?

http://deadspin.com/who-was-the-actual-best-player-in-the-nba-every-year-du-1770857828

Can someone explain the methodology here? This list makes no sense.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 10:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Can someone explain why Steve Francis had the highest VORP (Value over Replacement Rating) in 2000-2001?

CandyCanes wrote:
http://deadspin.com/who-was-the-actual-best-player-in-the-nba-every-year-du-1770857828

Can someone explain the methodology here? This list makes no sense.


This article is full of horse (bleep). He doesn't even explain his algorithm just another laker/Kobe hater. If anything. Shaq was the best player from 2000-2001
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:47 am    Post subject:

VORP is one of the box score measures. It has all of the limitations of any stat based on box score stats, plus it seems to have some quirks of its own. Having said that, Steve Francis was pretty good at that stage of his career. It's a fluke result, but not quite as crazy as it seems today.

Kobe is never going to win any statistical arguments. That was sort of a pointless article. The guy could have picked any statistical measure and reached the same result. Why pick an obscure measure like VORP?
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:08 am    Post subject: Re: Can someone explain why Steve Francis had the highest VORP (Value over Replacement Rating) in 2000-2001?

CandyCanes wrote:
http://deadspin.com/who-was-the-actual-best-player-in-the-nba-every-year-du-1770857828

Can someone explain the methodology here? This list makes no sense.



VORP is a quirky little formula that, as I understanding, gives more emphasis to usage and rebounding. It tends to reward players who fill in all the boxes in the stat sheet, like Lebron, Kevin Garnett, David Robinson, and MJ. Francis is the head-scratcher. He had a good year, but it's still hard looking at his stat line to see how he was the top VORP guy in 00-01.

Like a lot of cumulative box office stats, it has value but it isn't the end-all, be-all. The notion that VORP decides the best player in the league is silly. (In reality, Francis didn't get a little MVP vote that year, and five PGs got more all-NBA votes than he did.)It's just one thing to throw in the mix.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:24 am    Post subject: Re: Can someone explain why Steve Francis had the highest VORP (Value over Replacement Rating) in 2000-2001?

activeverb wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
http://deadspin.com/who-was-the-actual-best-player-in-the-nba-every-year-du-1770857828

Can someone explain the methodology here? This list makes no sense.



VORP is a quirky little formula that, as I understanding, gives more emphasis to usage and rebounding. It tends to reward players who fill in all the boxes in the stat sheet, like Lebron, Kevin Garnett, David Robinson, and MJ. Francis is the head-scratcher. He had a good year, but it's still hard looking at his stat line to see how he was the top VORP guy in 00-01.

Like a lot of cumulative box office stats, it has value but it isn't the end-all, be-all. The notion that VORP decides the best player in the league is silly. (In reality, Francis didn't get a little MVP vote that year, and five PGs got more all-NBA votes than he did.)It's just one thing to throw in the mix.


Yeah, I understand why it would reward guys like Duncan, Garnett, and LeBron... But Steve Francis!?
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:47 am    Post subject: Re: Can someone explain why Steve Francis had the highest VORP (Value over Replacement Rating) in 2000-2001?

CandyCanes wrote:
activeverb wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
http://deadspin.com/who-was-the-actual-best-player-in-the-nba-every-year-du-1770857828

Can someone explain the methodology here? This list makes no sense.



VORP is a quirky little formula that, as I understanding, gives more emphasis to usage and rebounding. It tends to reward players who fill in all the boxes in the stat sheet, like Lebron, Kevin Garnett, David Robinson, and MJ. Francis is the head-scratcher. He had a good year, but it's still hard looking at his stat line to see how he was the top VORP guy in 00-01.

Like a lot of cumulative box office stats, it has value but it isn't the end-all, be-all. The notion that VORP decides the best player in the league is silly. (In reality, Francis didn't get a little MVP vote that year, and five PGs got more all-NBA votes than he did.)It's just one thing to throw in the mix.


Yeah, I understand why it would reward guys like Duncan, Garnett, and LeBron... But Steve Francis!?



Probably just a statistical aberration where for one year he checked all the boxes in just the right way. He only finished in the top 10 in VORP one other time in his career (#8) so it's not like he was a constant leader in the category like Garnett or Lebron.

So it's less about VORP rewarding Francis than about Francis having one great VORP year in one of the weakest VORP years ever. (In most years, his winning VORP number for 00-01 wouldn't have put him in the top 3.) Just one of those things where all the pieces came together to result in a strange choice.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:12 am    Post subject: Re: Can someone explain why Steve Francis had the highest VORP (Value over Replacement Rating) in 2000-2001?

activeverb wrote:
VORP is a quirky little formula that, as I understanding, gives more emphasis to usage and rebounding. It tends to reward players who fill in all the boxes in the stat sheet, like Lebron, Kevin Garnett, David Robinson, and MJ. Francis is the head-scratcher. He had a good year, but it's still hard looking at his stat line to see how he was the top VORP guy in 00-01.

Like a lot of cumulative box office stats, it has value but it isn't the end-all, be-all. The notion that VORP decides the best player in the league is silly. (In reality, Francis didn't get a little MVP vote that year, and five PGs got more all-NBA votes than he did.)It's just one thing to throw in the mix.


VORP is essentially an attempt at converting BPM into something more refined. It starts with the raw BPM number and then adjusts it for things like minutes and games played. Somehow, the adjustment bumped Francis ahead of Snaq and Vince Carter, who had higher BPMs that year.

BPM is just another composite box score stat. Back in the day, there were any number of people saying, "Hollinger sucks, and my genius formula is better than PER." The first part may be true, but the second part never was. They all had some version of the same problems that we see with PER.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:42 pm    Post subject:

I was a huge Steve Francis fan back in the day.
It's sad. Nowadays he's known for this https://youtu.be/aqLnFF3mW3M
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:07 pm    Post subject:

VORP
Quote:
[BPM (-2.0)] * (% of minutes played)*(team games/82)


Raw BPM
Quote:
a*ReMPG + b*ORB% + c*DRB% + d*STL% + e*BLK% + f*AST% - g*USG%*TO% +
h*USG%*(1-TO%)*[2*(TS% - TmTS%) + i*AST% + j*(3PAr - Lg3PAr) - k] + l*sqrt(AST%*TRB%)

Where a-l are coefficients/constants. ^

BPM team adjustment
Quote:
[Team_Rating*120% - S(Player_%Min*Player_RawBPM)]/5



https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/bpm.html
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