Referee Crackdown on Continuation and Closeouts?

 
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:33 am    Post subject: Referee Crackdown on Continuation and Closeouts?

I'll believe it when I see it. The continuation call has been a joke for years. It would be nice if the refs finally started calling it right, but I think it is just too engrained.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/2017/09/21/nba-referees-crack-down-continuation-calls-dangerous-closeouts-season/691158001/
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oldschool32
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 3:02 pm    Post subject:

Been waiting on this thread.

Having trouble reading it(the article) on my ipad

Is this basically just about continuations?? I read somewhere earlier today or yesterday that they were also going to start calling offensive fouls on players who lean in to initiate contact, and then throw up a shot. That imo is a bigger problem and something I have been looking for them to change for a while now. That single call has really taken defense out of the game, and essentially any chance big men had to play defense. Now players just go into the paint, jump into the big, and go to the free throw line.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:07 pm    Post subject:

The video in the article of Harden getting the 3 and 1 isn't unlawful imo. Kobe used to do that all the time. It shouldn't matter if fans don't like swingthrus. If you can quickly put up a shot through a defender's arm(s), that's a shooting foul. Making this into an issue is just giving the refs one more allowance to judge intent. Are they not going to call the and-1 on such a play simply because it's unpopular with fans? Harden got hit on the arm while putting it up, who cares what the defender's intent was. No different to me than pump faking a guy to jump into you and flinging the ball up simultaneous to the bump. Fans don't have a problem with that play so I suppose nothing will be done about it. I don't like Harden one iota, but a hit on the forearm while shooting is a hit on the forearm while shooting. Malone once slapped Van Exel's arm as he was going up for a shot late in a playoff game and Lakerfan was furious (me included) that they didn't call a shooting foul for him to be able to tie the game at the line. Chick was pissed too, and we know he went out of his way to support the refs. He said to Stu's agreement, "I believe that was a weak call...", meaning a weaksauce refusal to call the foul in a hostile arena in the final secs. I'll believe refs ignoring those when I see it and if they do, it will be inconsistent application at BEST and that's what REALLY pisses fans off. When anything is called inconsistently, it's messy. Why would you wanna add another one of those judgment calls to the game?

Flopping is a different problem. Oldschool32 is right about that being a bigger problem, but this is something we've been ranting about for upwards of 20 years or however long Manu has been playing. Fat chance of them stopping that sh. You run into a stationary defender and flop backwards, you shouldn't get the call. That however is a function of a defender being allowed per rules to his space from floor to ceiling as long as he doesn't slap or trip the offensive player. Your hands/arms and legs/knees/feet can't be used in order to be deemed a stationary defender and the defender had his arm fully extended, reaching out to Harden. What the defender did in that swingthru foul at Memphis was to slap his arm. Intent, schmintent.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 4:03 am    Post subject:

I'll believe it when I see it. The league knows what the problems in the game are but fixing them hasn't been easy. I'm still waiting on the reduction in flopping that was supposed to be an officiating priority started two years ago. To me, the refs still haven't even figured out the verticality rule to protect defenders from players jumping into them to draw contact from 2015.

I agree with NPZ that video of Harden was a bad example but only as a bad example of how Harden exploits the continuation rule. It was, as he said, an example of the using the swing-thru to draw contact. Cutting down on awarding FTs for catching a defender's arms on the swing-thru was another officiating initiative that hasn't really taken hold either IMO. It was supposed to be a non-shooting foul.

This is what I think is an example of Harden exploiting the continuation rule.

LINK

I give Harden credit for learning how to exploit it better than anyone in the game today but I'm sure he's the case study for this new initiative.

Maybe the officials are trying to implement these crackdowns but I don't get the sense they're being applied to the NBA stars who are the impetuses for them. Does CP3 flop less because anti-flopping emphasis? Does Curry get fewer non-calls for throwing his body into shot-blockers?
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:34 am    Post subject:

It's a gray area in real time, which makes consistent, sound officiating of it in real time essentially a random act.

Look back and there's a long history of this difficulty. Magic Johnson (one example only) comes to mind as a master at getting the call to go his way more than thirty years back, on his drives and set shots. I lived 2500 miles from LA when he played and those continuation calls drove nearby East coast folks nuts. The way he'd fake getting hit and flail his arms out as if trying to shoot, well it was player genius, gamesmanship and then ultimately disturbing in a TV slow-mo replay after the call. Review didn't exist.

That was long before the jump-stop even existed and before the close-outs of perimeter three point shooters were frequent at all. Shooters today rely on the game's need to continue action without stops for review, so they practice fake fouls coming from closeouts. Faking getting fouled is happening almost every sequence these days because it works for the shooter. It sucks and I don't see much chance for improvement in terms of refereeing a better balance between maintenance of pace of play and accuracy of calls.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 4:25 pm    Post subject:

Every other season we get a new rule or a renewed focus on an old one. Lasts the preseason and maybe a third into it. By the time the playoffs come, it's back to the same old f'd up slop that is the norm.
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jonnybravo
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 6:41 pm    Post subject:

non-player zealot wrote:
The video in the article of Harden getting the 3 and 1 isn't unlawful imo. Kobe used to do that all the time. It shouldn't matter if fans don't like swingthrus. If you can quickly put up a shot through a defender's arm(s), that's a shooting foul. Making this into an issue is just giving the refs one more allowance to judge intent. Are they not going to call the and-1 on such a play simply because it's unpopular with fans? Harden got hit on the arm while putting it up, who cares what the defender's intent was. No different to me than pump faking a guy to jump into you and flinging the ball up simultaneous to the bump. Fans don't have a problem with that play so I suppose nothing will be done about it. I don't like Harden one iota, but a hit on the forearm while shooting is a hit on the forearm while shooting. Malone once slapped Van Exel's arm as he was going up for a shot late in a playoff game and Lakerfan was furious (me included) that they didn't call a shooting foul for him to be able to tie the game at the line. Chick was pissed too, and we know he went out of his way to support the refs. He said to Stu's agreement, "I believe that was a weak call...", meaning a weaksauce refusal to call the foul in a hostile arena in the final secs. I'll believe refs ignoring those when I see it and if they do, it will be inconsistent application at BEST and that's what REALLY pisses fans off. When anything is called inconsistently, it's messy. Why would you wanna add another one of those judgment calls to the game?

Flopping is a different problem. Oldschool32 is right about that being a bigger problem, but this is something we've been ranting about for upwards of 20 years or however long Manu has been playing. Fat chance of them stopping that sh. You run into a stationary defender and flop backwards, you shouldn't get the call. That however is a function of a defender being allowed per rules to his space from floor to ceiling as long as he doesn't slap or trip the offensive player. Your hands/arms and legs/knees/feet can't be used in order to be deemed a stationary defender and the defender had his arm fully extended, reaching out to Harden. What the defender did in that swingthru foul at Memphis was to slap his arm. Intent, schmintent.



I agree that's a bad example.
The play they need to target is when he has a backpedaling defender with hands up and not out is his target. HE moves with the ball forward underneat the defenders arms and rakes upward initiating ALL the contact. The dude has made a career out of that. I've seen guys literally run from him trying to avoid that crap. That's just his bread and butter.

He'll do crap like this too:

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2017/04/james-harden-foul-andre-roberson-continuation-thunder-vs-rockets-nba-playoffs

I can't find the clip but there's a doozy with him jujmping up and foward and landing on the opposing player's back and getting the call.

I had the dude on my fantasy team (and he killed it) so I watched a ton of Rockets games. When he doesn't get a few calls early, he checks out (much to my chagrin).
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1hu2ren3dui4
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 2:15 am    Post subject:

Lol. DUde is the best player in the nba. He can do whatever he wants to do.
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defense
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 10:33 am    Post subject:

I'll believe it when they fix

carrying
traveling
flopping
flagrant fouls
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:49 pm    Post subject:

oldschool32 wrote:
Been waiting on this thread.

Having trouble reading it(the article) on my ipad

Is this basically just about continuations?? I read somewhere earlier today or yesterday that they were also going to start calling offensive fouls on players who lean in to initiate contact, and then throw up a shot. That imo is a bigger problem and something I have been looking for them to change for a while now. That single call has really taken defense out of the game, and essentially any chance big men had to play defense. Now players just go into the paint, jump into the big, and go to the free throw line.
Uh OH, there goes james harden's entire game.
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governator
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:18 am    Post subject:

splashmtn wrote:
oldschool32 wrote:
Been waiting on this thread.

Having trouble reading it(the article) on my ipad

Is this basically just about continuations?? I read somewhere earlier today or yesterday that they were also going to start calling offensive fouls on players who lean in to initiate contact, and then throw up a shot. That imo is a bigger problem and something I have been looking for them to change for a while now. That single call has really taken defense out of the game, and essentially any chance big men had to play defense. Now players just go into the paint, jump into the big, and go to the free throw line.
Uh OH, there goes james harden's entire game.


Lou Will too
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lakez34
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:39 am    Post subject:

defense wrote:
I'll believe it when they fix

carrying
traveling
flopping
flagrant fouls


Yup. All the NBA is really doing is noting all the areas there are inconsistencies in the game, and after a month of "enforcing" it, will go back to doing nothing about it. Same as the rules you mentioned above.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 5:58 am    Post subject:

jonnybravo wrote:
non-player zealot wrote:
The video in the article of Harden getting the 3 and 1 isn't unlawful imo. Kobe used to do that all the time. It shouldn't matter if fans don't like swingthrus. If you can quickly put up a shot through a defender's arm(s), that's a shooting foul. Making this into an issue is just giving the refs one more allowance to judge intent. Are they not going to call the and-1 on such a play simply because it's unpopular with fans? Harden got hit on the arm while putting it up, who cares what the defender's intent was. No different to me than pump faking a guy to jump into you and flinging the ball up simultaneous to the bump. Fans don't have a problem with that play so I suppose nothing will be done about it. I don't like Harden one iota, but a hit on the forearm while shooting is a hit on the forearm while shooting. Malone once slapped Van Exel's arm as he was going up for a shot late in a playoff game and Lakerfan was furious (me included) that they didn't call a shooting foul for him to be able to tie the game at the line. Chick was pissed too, and we know he went out of his way to support the refs. He said to Stu's agreement, "I believe that was a weak call...", meaning a weaksauce refusal to call the foul in a hostile arena in the final secs. I'll believe refs ignoring those when I see it and if they do, it will be inconsistent application at BEST and that's what REALLY pisses fans off. When anything is called inconsistently, it's messy. Why would you wanna add another one of those judgment calls to the game?

Flopping is a different problem. Oldschool32 is right about that being a bigger problem, but this is something we've been ranting about for upwards of 20 years or however long Manu has been playing. Fat chance of them stopping that sh. You run into a stationary defender and flop backwards, you shouldn't get the call. That however is a function of a defender being allowed per rules to his space from floor to ceiling as long as he doesn't slap or trip the offensive player. Your hands/arms and legs/knees/feet can't be used in order to be deemed a stationary defender and the defender had his arm fully extended, reaching out to Harden. What the defender did in that swingthru foul at Memphis was to slap his arm. Intent, schmintent.



I agree that's a bad example.
The play they need to target is when he has a backpedaling defender with hands up and not out is his target. HE moves with the ball forward underneat the defenders arms and rakes upward initiating ALL the contact. The dude has made a career out of that. I've seen guys literally run from him trying to avoid that crap. That's just his bread and butter.

He'll do crap like this too:

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2017/04/james-harden-foul-andre-roberson-continuation-thunder-vs-rockets-nba-playoffs

I can't find the clip but there's a doozy with him jujmping up and foward and landing on the opposing player's back and getting the call.

I had the dude on my fantasy team (and he killed it) so I watched a ton of Rockets games. When he doesn't get a few calls early, he checks out (much to my chagrin).


The 3 points foul was really only something he added to his game last year, it's why his free throws on 3's jumped by about 70 (he got 5 less shooting fouls, 27 less and 1's, less techs and shot 45 more free throws, lol).
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