How will history remember Dwight Howard?
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic    LakersGround.net Forum Index -> General Basketball Discussion Reply to topic
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Aeneas Hunter
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763

PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 9:52 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
I don't think Paul is thought that highly -- he's usually behind Oscar, Stockton, and Isiah, and then a bunch of guys (including Paul) who people argue about. But, sure, Paul is higher on the list of PGs than Howard is on centers, but that's mostly because there have been a lot more great centers than point guards.


Yep. I rate Paul higher than most people. I'd put him fourth behind Magic, Oscar, and Stockton. But the drop off is fairly sharp after Magic. It's an historical curiosity that great PGs rarely win titles in their prime. This may lead Curry to end up rated a lot higher than a lot of people expect.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
unleasHell
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 16 Apr 2001
Posts: 11591
Location: Stay Thirsty my Friends

PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 12:51 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
activeverb wrote:
I don't think Paul is thought that highly -- he's usually behind Oscar, Stockton, and Isiah, and then a bunch of guys (including Paul) who people argue about. But, sure, Paul is higher on the list of PGs than Howard is on centers, but that's mostly because there have been a lot more great centers than point guards.


Yep. I rate Paul higher than most people. I'd put him fourth behind Magic, Oscar, and Stockton. But the drop off is fairly sharp after Magic. It's an historical curiosity that great PGs rarely win titles in their prime. This may lead Curry to end up rated a lot higher than a lot of people expect.


really? I would put Gary Peyton over CP3 as well as Isiah Thomas...
_________________
“Always remember... Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots.”
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
activeverb
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 37470

PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:43 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
activeverb wrote:
I don't think Paul is thought that highly -- he's usually behind Oscar, Stockton, and Isiah, and then a bunch of guys (including Paul) who people argue about. But, sure, Paul is higher on the list of PGs than Howard is on centers, but that's mostly because there have been a lot more great centers than point guards.


Yep. I rate Paul higher than most people. I'd put him fourth behind Magic, Oscar, and Stockton. But the drop off is fairly sharp after Magic. It's an historical curiosity that great PGs rarely win titles in their prime. This may lead Curry to end up rated a lot higher than a lot of people expect.


Point guards are Magic and then everybody else. He's the only point guard who's had a lot of playoff success, and a lot of the great Point cards have flamed out in the playoffs. You may be right because of that Kareem a ultimately be number 2 on the list
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Aeneas Hunter
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763

PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:05 am    Post subject:

Once you get past Magic, there are a bunch of PGs that you can argue about. Oscar is usually #2, but that may start to change. His ranking was based primarily on the mystique of his triple-double season. Now Westbrook has posted a triple-double season under more difficult conditions in terms of game pace and competition. Anyway, I would rank Paul over Isiah and Payton, but I acknowledge that I rank Paul higher (and Isiah lower) than most people.

AV's point is that there have been a lot more great centers than great PGs. Set aside Magic for the moment. Is there any other PG would you would rank above Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Shaq, or Hakeem? And then you have Robinson, M. Malone, and Ewing. You can make an argument that every one of those guys was greater than any PG other than Magic. And then you come to the oddities, Mikan and Walton.

So no, Dwight Howard is not a top 10 center. But a PG with equivalent credentials would have an argument for top 10 status.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
governator
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 24996

PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:26 am    Post subject:

Where's 2 time MVP, 2 rings and still under 30 Steph st currently?

Dwight... I have Alonzo Mourning ahead of him
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
carlosLisboa
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3079
Location: Portugal

PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:27 am    Post subject:

Like a Joe Barry Carroll, at most.

Or simply forgotten, as no one will invite him to perform any job in any Franchise.
Given the amount of children, he'll soon go bankrupt, and his possessions closed due to unpaid child support.

Maybe 10 years down the line, we get some report he found God and has a stable job as a janitor, or whatever.
_________________
-----------------------------------------------------
http://www.youtube.com/user/NBAMadeira
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Reply with quote
Hammett
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 20 Dec 2008
Posts: 9309

PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:41 am    Post subject:

When he got ejected from his final game and Kobe came out to sit with the bench, that spoke volumes about Dwight.

Doesn't have the heart of a champion.
_________________
Lakers. Built different.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
activeverb
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 37470

PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:00 am    Post subject:

governator wrote:
Where's 2 time MVP, 2 rings and still under 30 Steph st currently?

Dwight... I have Alonzo Mourning ahead of him


In terms of overall career accomplishments I'd put Howard and Mourning as pretty equivalent, though obviously it's easier to like Mourning. (And while things look pretty bleak for Howard right now, he could still play for several years so you never know what he might do and how his career might close out.) That said, neither is anywhere close to being one of the top 10 centers of all time, so I can't say I've really given a lot of deep thought to how I drank guys at that level
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Aeneas Hunter
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763

PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:06 am    Post subject:

governator wrote:
Where's 2 time MVP, 2 rings and still under 30 Steph st currently?

Dwight... I have Alonzo Mourning ahead of him


It's hard to rank a player at mid-career. If Curry suffered a catastrophic injury tomorrow and never played another game, he would be in the Bill Walton zone. Some people would rank him in the top 10, while others would rage that he had too short of a career. If his career continues on a reasonable progression, he'll end up in the top 5, maybe as high as #2.

As for Dwight, it depends on what you value. At his peak, he was playing at a bona fide MVP level, and in fact he should have won it over Rose in my opinion. Mourning actually finished high in the MVP voting a couple times, and his career progression resembles Howards' in a lot of ways. It appears that Howard is going to have more high level seasons than Mourning when all is said and done. On the other hand, Mourning was never a whiny pain in the butt like Howard. If I had to pick one of them for my team, I'd pick Mourning.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
carlosLisboa
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3079
Location: Portugal

PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:44 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
governator wrote:
Where's 2 time MVP, 2 rings and still under 30 Steph st currently?

Dwight... I have Alonzo Mourning ahead of him


In terms of overall career accomplishments I'd put Howard and Mourning as pretty equivalent, though obviously it's easier to like Mourning. (And while things look pretty bleak for Howard right now, he could still play for several years so you never know what he might do and how his career might close out.) That said, neither is anywhere close to being one of the top 10 centers of all time, so I can't say I've really given a lot of deep thought to how I drank guys at that level


This is a goof comparison. Zo's stats are better than DW's even after all those years injured / reduced.

Zo could be a douche bag, but he cared about winning, and worked his @ss off. And had skills.
_________________
-----------------------------------------------------
http://www.youtube.com/user/NBAMadeira
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Reply with quote
activeverb
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 37470

PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 2:12 pm    Post subject:

carlosLisboa wrote:


This is a goof comparison. Zo's stats are better than DW's even after all those years injured / reduced.
.



Not sure what method you're using to determine Zo's stats were better. If you want to use their primes (which would probably be Mourning's first 8 years, and Howard's years 3-10), I don't see much statistical difference. Mourning has an edge in scoring and blocks, Howard in rebounding and shooting percentage.

Personally, I’d take Mourning because Howard is so annoying. But I can’t say Mourning’s objective accomplishment really pass Howard. I’d put them on the same tier, and I could see why different people would rank one above the other.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
999
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 19 Oct 2006
Posts: 20265

PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:41 am    Post subject:

Shawn kemp 2.0
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Baron Von Humongous
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 02 Jul 2015
Posts: 32979

PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:15 am    Post subject:

As the world's greatest monster.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
carlosLisboa
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3079
Location: Portugal

PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:16 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
carlosLisboa wrote:


This is a goof comparison. Zo's stats are better than DW's even after all those years injured / reduced.
.



Not sure what method you're using to determine Zo's stats were better. If you want to use their primes (which would probably be Mourning's first 8 years, and Howard's years 3-10), I don't see much statistical difference. Mourning has an edge in scoring and blocks, Howard in rebounding and shooting percentage.

Personally, I’d take Mourning because Howard is so annoying. But I can’t say Mourning’s objective accomplishment really pass Howard. I’d put them on the same tier, and I could see why different people would rank one above the other.


Scoring, yes.
_________________
-----------------------------------------------------
http://www.youtube.com/user/NBAMadeira
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Reply with quote
activeverb
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 37470

PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:06 am    Post subject:

carlosLisboa wrote:
activeverb wrote:
carlosLisboa wrote:


This is a goof comparison. Zo's stats are better than DW's even after all those years injured / reduced.
.



Not sure what method you're using to determine Zo's stats were better. If you want to use their primes (which would probably be Mourning's first 8 years, and Howard's years 3-10), I don't see much statistical difference. Mourning has an edge in scoring and blocks, Howard in rebounding and shooting percentage.

Personally, I’d take Mourning because Howard is so annoying. But I can’t say Mourning’s objective accomplishment really pass Howard. I’d put them on the same tier, and I could see why different people would rank one above the other.


Scoring, yes.



Mourning was a better scorer, but it really wasn't by that much.

During his first 8 years Mourning averaged about 21.5 ppg. with a high of 23.2 ppg.

During his prime, Howard averaged about 20 ppg. with a high of 22.9.

Scoring really wasn't the reason either of them were a star. The calling card for both of them was defense. In fact, only one time in his career did Mourning finish in the top 10 in the league in scoring.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
carlosLisboa
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3079
Location: Portugal

PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:42 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
carlosLisboa wrote:
activeverb wrote:
carlosLisboa wrote:


This is a goof comparison. Zo's stats are better than DW's even after all those years injured / reduced.
.



Not sure what method you're using to determine Zo's stats were better. If you want to use their primes (which would probably be Mourning's first 8 years, and Howard's years 3-10), I don't see much statistical difference. Mourning has an edge in scoring and blocks, Howard in rebounding and shooting percentage.

Personally, I’d take Mourning because Howard is so annoying. But I can’t say Mourning’s objective accomplishment really pass Howard. I’d put them on the same tier, and I could see why different people would rank one above the other.


Scoring, yes.



Mourning was a better scorer, but it really wasn't by that much.

During his first 8 years Mourning averaged about 21.5 ppg. with a high of 23.2 ppg.

During his prime, Howard averaged about 20 ppg. with a high of 22.9.

Scoring really wasn't the reason either of them were a star. The calling card for both of them was defense. In fact, only one time in his career did Mourning finish in the top 10 in the league in scoring.


Morning had skills, even a decent J as the Celtics well remember.
Dwight can't even shoot from 5ft.
_________________
-----------------------------------------------------
http://www.youtube.com/user/NBAMadeira
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Reply with quote
AFireInside619
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 11 Dec 2015
Posts: 11447

PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:42 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
carlosLisboa wrote:
activeverb wrote:
carlosLisboa wrote:


This is a goof comparison. Zo's stats are better than DW's even after all those years injured / reduced.
.



Not sure what method you're using to determine Zo's stats were better. If you want to use their primes (which would probably be Mourning's first 8 years, and Howard's years 3-10), I don't see much statistical difference. Mourning has an edge in scoring and blocks, Howard in rebounding and shooting percentage.

Personally, I’d take Mourning because Howard is so annoying. But I can’t say Mourning’s objective accomplishment really pass Howard. I’d put them on the same tier, and I could see why different people would rank one above the other.


Scoring, yes.



Mourning was a better scorer, but it really wasn't by that much.

During his first 8 years Mourning averaged about 21.5 ppg. with a high of 23.2 ppg.

During his prime, Howard averaged about 20 ppg. with a high of 22.9.

Scoring really wasn't the reason either of them were a star. The calling card for both of them was defense. In fact, only one time in his career did Mourning finish in the top 10 in the league in scoring.


Zo is an all-time great. He was one of the best centers when the best centers played. Shaq, Ewing, The Dream, Robinson, even Rik Smits. Every night was a gauntlet for him and he was only 6'10". And don't get me started on the Power Forwards he had to face too. Oakley, Barkley, LJ, Mason, Horry, Rodman, Grant, Kemp, Etc. Howard would have been swallowed up by all those dudes. I assume both Zo and Howard were juiced to the gills at one point, so that would be a wash. But there's absolutely no way Howard would have gotten the best of him. Zo would take his lunch money, point blank.

How would Howard be looked at by the end of his career? A loser. A clown. Someone the stars didn't respect. Shaq, Kobe, Lebron, Durant, & Garnett all have zero love for the guy...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
activeverb
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 37470

PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:38 am    Post subject:

carlosLisboa wrote:
activeverb wrote:
carlosLisboa wrote:
activeverb wrote:
carlosLisboa wrote:


This is a goof comparison. Zo's stats are better than DW's even after all those years injured / reduced.
.



Not sure what method you're using to determine Zo's stats were better. If you want to use their primes (which would probably be Mourning's first 8 years, and Howard's years 3-10), I don't see much statistical difference. Mourning has an edge in scoring and blocks, Howard in rebounding and shooting percentage.

Personally, I’d take Mourning because Howard is so annoying. But I can’t say Mourning’s objective accomplishment really pass Howard. I’d put them on the same tier, and I could see why different people would rank one above the other.


Scoring, yes.



Mourning was a better scorer, but it really wasn't by that much.

During his first 8 years Mourning averaged about 21.5 ppg. with a high of 23.2 ppg.

During his prime, Howard averaged about 20 ppg. with a high of 22.9.

Scoring really wasn't the reason either of them were a star. The calling card for both of them was defense. In fact, only one time in his career did Mourning finish in the top 10 in the league in scoring.


Morning had skills, even a decent J as the Celtics well remember.
Dwight can't even shoot from 5ft.


I'm not arguing with you. Mourning was more skilled, Howard was more athletic. I'm just saying their overall accomplishments weren't significantly different.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
activeverb
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 37470

PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:51 am    Post subject:

AFireInside619 wrote:


Zo is an all-time great. He was one of the best centers when the best centers played. Shaq, Ewing, The Dream, Robinson, even Rik Smits. Every night was a gauntlet for him and he was only 6'10". And don't get me started on the Power Forwards he had to face too. Oakley, Barkley, LJ, Mason, Horry, Rodman, Grant, Kemp, Etc. Howard would have been swallowed up by all those dudes. I assume both Zo and Howard were juiced to the gills at one point, so that would be a wash. But there's absolutely no way Howard would have gotten the best of him. Zo would take his lunch money, point blank.

How would Howard be looked at by the end of his career? A loser. A clown. Someone the stars didn't respect. Shaq, Kobe, Lebron, Durant, & Garnett all have zero love for the guy...



In most rankings I see, they tend to be pretty close. For example, in ESPN's list of 100 best players Mourning was 65 and Howard was 67. I find on most lists of all-time centers they come in in the low 20s, right near each other.

In most lists, Mourning and Howard tend to be in the great mishmash of centers like Bill Lanier, Dikembe Mutumbo, Dave Cowens, Wes Unseld, Bob McAdoo and Robert Parish, where very few people much care what order they're ranked in, unless they have some kind of intense personal feelings about a player.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
VegasLakerFan
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 25 Dec 2011
Posts: 1835

PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:16 pm    Post subject: Re: How will history remember Dwight Howard?

It won't.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
activeverb
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 37470

PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:07 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Once you get past Magic, there are a bunch of PGs that you can argue about. Oscar is usually #2, but that may start to change. His ranking was based primarily on the mystique of his triple-double season. Now Westbrook has posted a triple-double season under more difficult conditions in terms of game pace and competition. Anyway, I would rank Paul over Isiah and Payton, but I acknowledge that I rank Paul higher (and Isiah lower) than most people.

AV's point is that there have been a lot more great centers than great PGs. Set aside Magic for the moment. Is there any other PG would you would rank above Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Shaq, or Hakeem? And then you have Robinson, M. Malone, and Ewing. You can make an argument that every one of those guys was greater than any PG other than Magic. And then you come to the oddities, Mikan and Walton.

So no, Dwight Howard is not a top 10 center. But a PG with equivalent credentials would have an argument for top 10 status.


I think Oscar is poised for a steep decline in his reputation.

My guess is that very few people here, and very few modern NBA fans could tell you much about Oscar, his game, or his accomplishments other than the triple double.

I think Westbrook accomplishing that will knock Oscar off a lot of all time top 10 list, because he doesn't seem special anymore.

Oscar reminds me a little bit of Joe DiMaggio and baseball DiMaggio at the time of his retirement was considered the consummate baseball player, but now he's hardly remembered
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
AshesToAshes
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 20 Jun 2009
Posts: 4837

PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:35 am    Post subject:

999 wrote:
Shawn kemp 2.0


Then once again, the sequel was worse than the original.
_________________
KOBE!!!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
carlosLisboa
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3079
Location: Portugal

PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:52 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
carlosLisboa wrote:
activeverb wrote:
carlosLisboa wrote:
activeverb wrote:
carlosLisboa wrote:


This is a goof comparison. Zo's stats are better than DW's even after all those years injured / reduced.
.



Not sure what method you're using to determine Zo's stats were better. If you want to use their primes (which would probably be Mourning's first 8 years, and Howard's years 3-10), I don't see much statistical difference. Mourning has an edge in scoring and blocks, Howard in rebounding and shooting percentage.

Personally, I’d take Mourning because Howard is so annoying. But I can’t say Mourning’s objective accomplishment really pass Howard. I’d put them on the same tier, and I could see why different people would rank one above the other.


Scoring, yes.



Mourning was a better scorer, but it really wasn't by that much.

During his first 8 years Mourning averaged about 21.5 ppg. with a high of 23.2 ppg.

During his prime, Howard averaged about 20 ppg. with a high of 22.9.

Scoring really wasn't the reason either of them were a star. The calling card for both of them was defense. In fact, only one time in his career did Mourning finish in the top 10 in the league in scoring.


Morning had skills, even a decent J as the Celtics well remember.
Dwight can't even shoot from 5ft.


I'm not arguing with you. Mourning was more skilled, Howard was more athletic. I'm just saying their overall accomplishments weren't significantly different.


I agree. If not for the championship Zo won (as a reserve) we wouldn't even be talking about him. An Zo was not one of the best centres ever. Just a very good one, and a marquee player for the Heat. Good international career.
Bad attitude in Charlotte and Toronto, hurt his image, but a championhsip erases a lot. He at least understood how important was to win something even playing a lesser role, and bringing value as a role player.
_________________
-----------------------------------------------------
http://www.youtube.com/user/NBAMadeira
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Reply with quote
Lonzo'sBalls
Starting Rotation
Starting Rotation


Joined: 07 Sep 2017
Posts: 423

PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:16 pm    Post subject:

((COMMENT REMOVED - JMK))
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Aeneas Hunter
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763

PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:57 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
Oscar reminds me a little bit of Joe DiMaggio and baseball DiMaggio at the time of his retirement was considered the consummate baseball player, but now he's hardly remembered


If anyone ever has a 56 game hitting streak, your analogy will be perfect. Joe was just before the TV era, and his career numbers were curtailed by the war. Other than a passing reference in Mrs. Robinson, the 56 game streak, and Marilyn Monroe, only baseball history geeks like me could really tell you much about him.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    LakersGround.net Forum Index -> General Basketball Discussion All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Page 2 of 3
Jump to:  

 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum






Graphics by uberzev
© 1995-2018 LakersGround.net. All Rights Reserved. Privacy Policy. Terms of Use.
LakersGround is an unofficial news source serving the fan community since 1995.
We are in no way associated with the Los Angeles Lakers or the National Basketball Association.


Powered by phpBB