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J.C. Smith Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 12670
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Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:10 am Post subject: Team's RPM Numbers |
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Since it's not possible to trim down the Lakers players RPM values at ESPN.com I sorted it out of personal interest earlier and am sharing the list for anyone else who is interested. I'm personally not a huge fan of +/- stats, though if you are going that route RPM is a reasonable way of doing it. Read into these what you will, just posting the numbers.
RPM
Lopez: 2.77
Randle: 1.99
Nance: 1.01
Bogut: 0.65
Zubac: 0.49
KCP: -0.87
Kuzma: -1.27
Clarkson: -1.4
Ennis: -1.49
Ball: -1.55
Hart: -2.05
Ingram: -2.32
Brewer: -2.84
Offensive RPM
Lopez: 0.84
Randle: 0.61
Clarkson: 0.02
Kuzma: -0.09
Nance: -0.48
Zubac: -0.7
KCP: -0.95
Bogut: -1.16
Ennis: -1.38
Ingram: -1.83
Hart: -1.93
Ball: -2.09
Brewer: -2.27
Defensive RPM
Lopez: 1.93
Bogut: 1.81
Nance: 1.45
Randle: 1.38
Zubac: 1.19
Ball: 0.54
KCP: 0.08
Ennis: -0.11
Hart: -0.12
Ingram: -0.49
Brewer: -0.57
Kuzma: -1.18
Clarkson: -1.42
Wins
Lopez: 1.27
Randle: 0.87
Nance: 0.73
KCP: 0.55
Kuzma: 0.5
Ball: 0.46
Clarkson: 0.32
Ingram: 0.24
Bogut: 0.13
Hart: 0.11
Ennis: 0.06
Brewer: 0.03
Zubac: 0.01 |
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governator Retired Number
Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 25076
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Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:12 am Post subject: |
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ok y'all gotta give a summary of what this RPM means |
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epak Retired Number
Joined: 30 Aug 2005 Posts: 34147
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Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:24 am Post subject: |
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governator wrote: | ok y'all gotta give a summary of what this RPM means |
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TooMuchMajicBuss Franchise Player
Joined: 17 Sep 2008 Posts: 21075 Location: In a white room, with black curtains near the station
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Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:49 am Post subject: |
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Simple. It's how fast their engine's running. |
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J.C. Smith Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 12670
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CRoost Star Player
Joined: 21 Mar 2017 Posts: 4791
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Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:10 pm Post subject: Re: Team's RPM Numbers |
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J.C. Smith wrote: | Since it's not possible to trim down the Lakers players RPM values at ESPN.com I sorted it out of personal interest earlier and am sharing the list for anyone else who is interested. I'm personally not a huge fan of +/- stats, though if you are going that route RPM is a reasonable way of doing it. Read into these what you will, just posting the numbers.
RPM
Lopez: 2.77
Randle: 1.99
Nance: 1.01
Bogut: 0.65
Zubac: 0.49
KCP: -0.87
Kuzma: -1.27
Clarkson: -1.4
Ennis: -1.49
Ball: -1.55
Hart: -2.05
Ingram: -2.32
Brewer: -2.84
Offensive RPM
Lopez: 0.84
Randle: 0.61
Clarkson: 0.02
Kuzma: -0.09
Nance: -0.48
Zubac: -0.7
KCP: -0.95
Bogut: -1.16
Ennis: -1.38
Ingram: -1.83
Hart: -1.93
Ball: -2.09
Brewer: -2.27
Defensive RPM
Lopez: 1.93
Bogut: 1.81
Nance: 1.45
Randle: 1.38
Zubac: 1.19
Ball: 0.54
KCP: 0.08
Ennis: -0.11
Hart: -0.12
Ingram: -0.49
Brewer: -0.57
Kuzma: -1.18
Clarkson: -1.42
Wins
Lopez: 1.27
Randle: 0.87
Nance: 0.73
KCP: 0.55
Kuzma: 0.5
Ball: 0.46
Clarkson: 0.32
Ingram: 0.24
Bogut: 0.13
Hart: 0.11
Ennis: 0.06
Brewer: 0.03
Zubac: 0.01 |
Zo numbers contradicted my expectations. I’m happy for Randle though and his defensive impact. Kuz and Ingram defensive impact does not reflect my eye test. |
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textbook Star Player
Joined: 27 Mar 2015 Posts: 2181
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Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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So lopez should be playing 38 min a game. |
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Chronicle Retired Number
Joined: 21 Jul 2012 Posts: 31935 Location: Manhattan
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Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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TooMuchMajicBuss wrote: | Simple. It's how fast their engine's running. |
It's rebounds per minute! _________________ Kobe |
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greenfrog Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jan 2011 Posts: 36081 Location: 502 Bad Gateway
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Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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textbook wrote: | So lopez should be playing 38 min a game. |
Not 38, but the majority at center. He's the best two-way player on the team. |
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tox Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Nov 2015 Posts: 17876
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Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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I was hilariously convinced that Lonzo was gonna have amazing ORPM numbers this year. Lol |
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tox Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Nov 2015 Posts: 17876
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Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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greenfrog wrote: | textbook wrote: | So lopez should be playing 38 min a game. |
Not 38, but the majority at center. He's the best two-way player on the team. |
What was Lopez's RPM last year? I imagine a lot of why he's at the top right now is a prior from last year. This ranking might suggest Julius has been better overall, because Julius's prior from last year would be dragging him down. |
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Dr. Funkbot Star Player
Joined: 24 Sep 2001 Posts: 8188 Location: Eagle Rock
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Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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TooMuchMajicBuss wrote: | Simple. It's how fast their engine's running. |
Fellow gear head appreciates this comment. But dang 2 to 3 rpm?- must be a really large displacement diesel or a steam engine. _________________ R.I.P. Doc Buss |
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greenfrog Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jan 2011 Posts: 36081 Location: 502 Bad Gateway
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Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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tox wrote: | greenfrog wrote: | textbook wrote: | So lopez should be playing 38 min a game. |
Not 38, but the majority at center. He's the best two-way player on the team. |
What was Lopez's RPM last year? I imagine a lot of why he's at the top right now is a prior from last year. This ranking might suggest Julius has been better overall, because Julius's prior from last year would be dragging him down. |
I consider you the expert on this. Does it also factor who they're playing against? Inferior bench players vs. starters. |
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JustWinBaby Rookie
Joined: 23 Oct 2017 Posts: 18
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Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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hard to believe Ennis (-1.49) is better than Ingram (-2.32).
Ennis: -1.49
Ball: -1.55
Hart: -2.05
Ingram: -2.32 |
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tox Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Nov 2015 Posts: 17876
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Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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greenfrog wrote: | tox wrote: | greenfrog wrote: | textbook wrote: | So lopez should be playing 38 min a game. |
Not 38, but the majority at center. He's the best two-way player on the team. |
What was Lopez's RPM last year? I imagine a lot of why he's at the top right now is a prior from last year. This ranking might suggest Julius has been better overall, because Julius's prior from last year would be dragging him down. |
I consider you the expert on this. Does it also factor who they're playing against? Inferior bench players vs. starters. |
Yeah, that's what it's supposed to do. Of course, how good it is at successfully adjusting for opponent quality is a question. I find it does a pretty good job at that, though. |
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tox Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Nov 2015 Posts: 17876
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Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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JustWinBaby wrote: | hard to believe Ennis (-1.49) is better than Ingram (-2.32).
Ennis: -1.49
Ball: -1.55
Hart: -2.05
Ingram: -2.32 |
Ingram's RPM was one of the worst in the league last year. Ingram will need to sustain his improved play for longer, in order to convince RPM that he's actually much better this year than last. |
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Aeneas Hunter Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jul 2005 Posts: 31763
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Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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A couple general comments about RPM:
1. Beware of using it to compare players in different positions. This is because the defensive component (DRPM) will almost always greatly favor big men. This is legitimate, because the big guy standing next to the basket is likely to have a greater impact on defensive performance than the little guy out on the perimeter. You can see that in the numbers that J.C. posted.
2. In that respect, Ball's DRPM is actually extraordinary for a rookie. I posted about this in the Ball thread this morning. 0.54 ranks ninth in the league in defense by a point guard. Ball ranks ahead of some veterans who are generally considered to be good defenders. By comparison, Fox ranks dead last among point guards in DRPM. |
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Baron Von Humongous Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jul 2015 Posts: 32979
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Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you for posting this, JCS. Since the RPM data doesn't have splits, I propose we keep a record of RPM changes month by month in this thread to track players' progress. |
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venturalakersfan Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144461 Location: The Gold Coast
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Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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tox wrote: | I was hilariously convinced that Lonzo was gonna have amazing ORPM numbers this year. Lol |
You weren’t alone my friend _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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Aeneas Hunter Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jul 2005 Posts: 31763
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Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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On reflection, the only numbers on the chart that really jump out at me are the ORPM numbers for Clarkson and Kuzma. I would have expected them to be a bit higher.
I’m also struck by the mediocrity of Casey P.’s numbers, though I’m not surprised by them. Detroit knew what it was doing when it picked ups Bradley and let Casey P. walk. If Casey P. doesn't get it going, he is going to regret turning down $80M/5 years from Detroit. |
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JustWinBaby Rookie
Joined: 23 Oct 2017 Posts: 18
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Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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Aeneas Hunter wrote: | A couple general comments about RPM:
1. Beware of using it to compare players in different positions. This is because the defensive component (DRPM) will almost always greatly favor big men. This is legitimate, because the big guy standing next to the basket is likely to have a greater impact on defensive performance than the little guy out on the perimeter. You can see that in the numbers that J.C. posted.
2. In that respect, Ball's DRPM is actually extraordinary for a rookie. I posted about this in the Ball thread this morning. 0.54 ranks ninth in the league in defense by a point guard. Ball ranks ahead of some veterans who are generally considered to be good defenders. By comparison, Fox ranks dead last among point guards in DRPM. |
Great point. I like to compare point guards and win% for Lonzo because he doesn't score much but his win% has greater impact. |
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forzaCOREA Starting Rotation
Joined: 08 Mar 2010 Posts: 804
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Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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would you say RPM is better than PER at ranking nba players? |
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Aeneas Hunter Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jul 2005 Posts: 31763
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Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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forzaCOREA wrote: | would you say RPM is better than PER at ranking nba players? |
Yes, though it is far from perfect. PER and most of the common measures are based on box score stats, and we all know that box score stats are limited in basketball. DRPM is the only measure of defense that (mostly) passes the eyeball test for me. I wouldn’t treat RPM has some sort of talismanic stat that is the embodiment of Truth. Also, as I said before, you should not use it to compare players who are not comparable (PGs and Cs for example). It requires some degree of interpretation as a result. With that in mind, RPM is more reliable than PER and the other composite box score stats.
Edit: Another way of expressing this point is that RPM does not purport to be a measure of player value. An average center may have more defensive impact than a good defensive guard, but the guard’s defense maybe more valuable because a center can’t play guard. You can replace an average center’s defense with another center, but it may be really hard to replace the defense of a good defensive guard. |
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forzaCOREA Starting Rotation
Joined: 08 Mar 2010 Posts: 804
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Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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Aeneas Hunter wrote: | forzaCOREA wrote: | would you say RPM is better than PER at ranking nba players? |
Yes, though it is far from perfect. PER and most of the common measures are based on box score stats, and we all know that box score stats are limited in basketball. DRPM is the only measure of defense that (mostly) passes the eyeball test for me. I wouldn’t treat RPM has some sort of talismanic stat that is the embodiment of Truth. Also, as I said before, you should not use it to compare players who are not comparable (PGs and Cs for example). It requires some degree of interpretation as a result. With that in mind, RPM is more reliable than PER and the other composite box score stats.
Edit: Another way of expressing this point is that RPM does not purport to be a measure of player value. An average center may have more defensive impact than a good defensive guard, but the guard’s defense maybe more valuable because a center can’t play guard. You can replace an average center’s defense with another center, but it may be really hard to replace the defense of a good defensive guard. |
thank you for the great response. |
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GoldenThroat Moderator
Joined: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 37474
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Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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Looks like RPM is having a hard time moving on from the Russell trade. |
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