OFFICIAL BRANDON INGRAM THREAD!!
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GoldenThroat
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:36 pm    Post subject:

TheBlackMamba wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
governator wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
I think ideally, Ingram would be a 3rd option who can pick up some of the scoring slack with the 2nd unit. No confidence in his jumper, his FTs stink, and his finishing on half court drives are very inconsistent.

Being thrust into the #1 scoring option early on was tough. He's sort of settling behind Brook as a 1B option, though I still think he's not ready for that role on a playoff level team.

With the trade, I feel like guys like Lonzo/Ingram were put into situations that were not completely ideal (Lonzo needing another facilitator at the guard position in half court; Ingram with having a more versatile perimeter scorer to take the load off of him). It's sink or swim and hopefully we get our 2 max guys who can help Lonzo/Ingram grow a bit more naturally into their roles.

with 2 max platers, BI can go focus on lock down D (and shoot 3)... imagine a 6'9 with 7'3 wingspan T.Allen


With 2 max players, you need guys who can catch & shoot. If we get LBJ & George, I think Ingram is a prime candidate to be moved for a third star who's already under contract.


Hmm...


I don't know. If a team is giving up a third star-type of player for him, doesn't that mean he showed real growth this year as a prospect, which for him is really centered around the jumpshot? And if that's the case, why would we deal him, especially given that there's no irrational hate from the FO towards him like there was with Dlo (far from it, actually, for Mr. Untouchable)?

Not saying he's clearly trending in one direction or another, but if he's closer to the player we've seen the past couple of games for the rest of the season, no one is trading a star for him. The value of a drafted player around the NBA begins to sharply decline after a year or two if they don't show quick and noticeable progress. Even Dlo was essentially a salary dump (on the upper end as far as salary dumps go, but still) and he actually looked like a future All-Star after the ASB both of his first two seasons. And if you disregard that as a bad example because of the aforementioned irrational hate, Kris Dunn was basically a throw-in a year after he was drafted #5 overall in the Jimmy Butler deal. Now BI is a lot younger of a prospect, but the point is that if he's really not a special talent, the time to deal him was last year when there was still a market for him if you go by what was reported regarding Boogie and PG13.

I'm sure GT wouldn't say that without hearing a whisper or two, which makes me think this FO is truly delusional and barely has a clue what it's doing. We're really just gonna waste all those years of tanking, aren't we? There's now a scenario where we may not have our 2014-2016 1st rounders on the roster next season. Talk about cleaning house...


I'm totally saying that without hearing a whisper or two, lol. It's just me thinking out loud. Ingram doesn't have to make some huge leap for a team to justify getting itself out of a contract. Remember who Pau was traded for.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:03 pm    Post subject:

governator wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
governator wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
I think ideally, Ingram would be a 3rd option who can pick up some of the scoring slack with the 2nd unit. No confidence in his jumper, his FTs stink, and his finishing on half court drives are very inconsistent.

Being thrust into the #1 scoring option early on was tough. He's sort of settling behind Brook as a 1B option, though I still think he's not ready for that role on a playoff level team.

With the trade, I feel like guys like Lonzo/Ingram were put into situations that were not completely ideal (Lonzo needing another facilitator at the guard position in half court; Ingram with having a more versatile perimeter scorer to take the load off of him). It's sink or swim and hopefully we get our 2 max guys who can help Lonzo/Ingram grow a bit more naturally into their roles.

with 2 max platers, BI can go focus on lock down D (and shoot 3)... imagine a 6'9 with 7'3 wingspan T.Allen


With 2 max players, you need guys who can catch & shoot. If we get LBJ & George, I think Ingram is a prime candidate to be moved for a third star who's already under contract.


Like who (and does math $ works)?


There is nobody.
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bballchinaski
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:05 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
TheBlackMamba wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
governator wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
I think ideally, Ingram would be a 3rd option who can pick up some of the scoring slack with the 2nd unit. No confidence in his jumper, his FTs stink, and his finishing on half court drives are very inconsistent.

Being thrust into the #1 scoring option early on was tough. He's sort of settling behind Brook as a 1B option, though I still think he's not ready for that role on a playoff level team.

With the trade, I feel like guys like Lonzo/Ingram were put into situations that were not completely ideal (Lonzo needing another facilitator at the guard position in half court; Ingram with having a more versatile perimeter scorer to take the load off of him). It's sink or swim and hopefully we get our 2 max guys who can help Lonzo/Ingram grow a bit more naturally into their roles.

with 2 max platers, BI can go focus on lock down D (and shoot 3)... imagine a 6'9 with 7'3 wingspan T.Allen


With 2 max players, you need guys who can catch & shoot. If we get LBJ & George, I think Ingram is a prime candidate to be moved for a third star who's already under contract.


Hmm...


I don't know. If a team is giving up a third star-type of player for him, doesn't that mean he showed real growth this year as a prospect, which for him is really centered around the jumpshot? And if that's the case, why would we deal him, especially given that there's no irrational hate from the FO towards him like there was with Dlo (far from it, actually, for Mr. Untouchable)?

Not saying he's clearly trending in one direction or another, but if he's closer to the player we've seen the past couple of games for the rest of the season, no one is trading a star for him. The value of a drafted player around the NBA begins to sharply decline after a year or two if they don't show quick and noticeable progress. Even Dlo was essentially a salary dump (on the upper end as far as salary dumps go, but still) and he actually looked like a future All-Star after the ASB both of his first two seasons. And if you disregard that as a bad example because of the aforementioned irrational hate, Kris Dunn was basically a throw-in a year after he was drafted #5 overall in the Jimmy Butler deal. Now BI is a lot younger of a prospect, but the point is that if he's really not a special talent, the time to deal him was last year when there was still a market for him if you go by what was reported regarding Boogie and PG13.

I'm sure GT wouldn't say that without hearing a whisper or two, which makes me think this FO is truly delusional and barely has a clue what it's doing. We're really just gonna waste all those years of tanking, aren't we? There's now a scenario where we may not have our 2014-2016 1st rounders on the roster next season. Talk about cleaning house...


I'm totally saying that without hearing a whisper or two, lol. It's just me thinking out loud. Ingram doesn't have to make some huge leap for a team to justify getting itself out of a contract. Remember who Pau was traded for.


for a dude who preaches patience for young guys you seem to jump on ingram quite fast. Didnt saw you wanting to get rid of him when his jumper was falling, if it falls again do you want to trade him?

Let go of the dlo stuff, it's over man.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:08 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
for a dude who preaches patience for young guys you seem to jump on ingram quite fast. Didnt saw you wanting to get rid of him when his jumper was falling, if it falls again do you want to trade him?

Let go of the dlo stuff, it's over man.


*grabs popcorn.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:28 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Quote:
for a dude who preaches patience for young guys you seem to jump on ingram quite fast. Didnt saw you wanting to get rid of him when his jumper was falling, if it falls again do you want to trade him?

Let go of the dlo stuff, it's over man.


*grabs popcorn.

if BI has Ben Simmon's body, he would be a super star already. he has all the moves, but gets bumped off balance too often. it will be a process,
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:28 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:

I'm totally saying that without hearing a whisper or two, lol. It's just me thinking out loud. Ingram doesn't have to make some huge leap for a team to justify getting itself out of a contract. Remember who Pau was traded for.


Lol, ok then. Just wouldn't put it past them to trade another young kid too soon. I'm not against trading BI in the right deal, but I also don't think we can afford to lose another trade, because our pool of assets really isn't as expansive as you would think after four years of tank wars. If we end up trading him for pennies on the dollar, it's going to make the Dlo trade look even more foolish than it did already because we could've just used BI in that deal to begin with. It's a sunk cost, but these things still pile up in the long run.

Also, looking around the league right now, there aren't too many unhappy situations between a star and his team with all the deals of the past summer, though certainly one could develop over the year. Love maybe? Not sure if Lebron would want him, though. On a side note, it would be amazing if we could just appeal to his emotions and convince BroLo to take a one-year paycut with the promise of a bigger contract next summer. There's your third star right there.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:38 pm    Post subject:

bballchinaski wrote:

for a dude who preaches patience for young guys you seem to jump on ingram quite fast. Didnt saw you wanting to get rid of him when his jumper was falling, if it falls again do you want to trade him?

Let go of the dlo stuff, it's over man.

Are you disagreeing that next to LeBron (forget about PG for a second), you want guys who can catch and shoot?
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:02 pm    Post subject:

BI will come around. Kid is only 20. His shot will fall again. Have a little faith.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:04 pm    Post subject:

Dr. Funkbot wrote:
BI will come around. Kid is only 20. His shot will fall again. Have a little faith.

I just can't. His statistical markers are hardly better than Julius's when it comes to shooting. That scares me.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:07 pm    Post subject:

TheBlackMamba wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:

I'm totally saying that without hearing a whisper or two, lol. It's just me thinking out loud. Ingram doesn't have to make some huge leap for a team to justify getting itself out of a contract. Remember who Pau was traded for.


Lol, ok then. Just wouldn't put it past them to trade another young kid too soon. I'm not against trading BI in the right deal, but I also don't think we can afford to lose another trade, because our pool of assets really isn't as expansive as you would think after four years of tank wars. If we end up trading him for pennies on the dollar, it's going to make the Dlo trade look even more foolish than it did already because we could've just used BI in that deal to begin with. It's a sunk cost, but these things still pile up in the long run.

Also, looking around the league right now, there aren't too many unhappy situations between a star and his team with all the deals of the past summer, though certainly one could develop over the year. Love maybe? Not sure if Lebron would want him, though. On a side note, it would be amazing if we could just appeal to his emotions and convince BroLo to take a one-year paycut with the promise of a bigger contract next summer. There's your third star right there.


I think trading BI would be good for both sides, he’d go somewhere where he’d be able to grow into his body and learn how to play the game under a coach that knows how to use him with less pressure similar to the situation with Oladipo and the Pacers.

Because it’s all about Lonzo right now, BI is not a shooter so it hasn’t been the perfect fit so far. Both players are super young, they’d need a lot of time to grow but I doubt the lakers are patient enough to give them the time they need to grow together, so trading BI for a more polished star could be what’s best for both sides and hopefully that makes the fans happy.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:07 pm    Post subject:

bballchinaski wrote:
for a dude who preaches patience for young guys you seem to jump on ingram quite fast. Didnt saw you wanting to get rid of him when his jumper was falling, if it falls again do you want to trade him?

Let go of the dlo stuff, it's over man.


Lol at bringing up Russell, I didn't say anything about him. Weird how I'm able to be very optimistic about Lonzo, Kuzma, & even Randle now without Russell getting in the way, but for some reason I can't do it with Ingram. It isn't how these guys...I dunno...ACTUALLY PLAY...it's that.

And when, pray tell, was his jumper falling? He's made 7 threes this year. He's constantly passing up shots that other guys would take and make at a decent clip.

He hasn't played well by any of the metrics that I value for ALL players, bears little to no statistical resemblance to any of the guys that we hope he'll become when they were the same age. Even in the best case scenario, he's a couple of years away from being a 3rd option on a championship contender who's capable of knocking down open 3's with consistency.

Here's a newsflash. If we sign LeBron James, who will be 34 early next season...we're trying to win a title right away. What Brandon Ingram (or any of our other players for that matter) could be when they're 25 is pretty irrelevant to that cause. When the Cavs signed LeBron, they traded Andrew Wiggins...who projected to be a better prospect than Ingram...for a 3rd-option in Kevin Love.

But we wouldn't do the same because a couple of decision-makers that didn't draft him think that maybe Ingram (or anyone else on this team) might be really good...some day? But I guess I'm just saying all that because I just can't get over the Russell trade and none of it actually makes sense.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:09 pm    Post subject:

tox wrote:
Dr. Funkbot wrote:
BI will come around. Kid is only 20. His shot will fall again. Have a little faith.

I just can't. His statistical markers are hardly better than Julius's when it comes to shooting. That scares me.


I understand where you a coming from. You know way more about BBall than I do. But I do know that guys who are humble and have good work ethics tend to improve over time.

BI is really skinny and gets pushed around a lot still. When he adds more strength he will be better. He is a project that is for sure, but I think he will end up and allstar. The flashes are there.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:10 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
bballchinaski wrote:
for a dude who preaches patience for young guys you seem to jump on ingram quite fast. Didnt saw you wanting to get rid of him when his jumper was falling, if it falls again do you want to trade him?

Let go of the dlo stuff, it's over man.


Lol at bringing up Russell, I didn't say anything about him. Weird how I'm able to be very optimistic about Lonzo, Kuzma, & even Randle now without Russell getting in the way, but for some reason I can't do it with Ingram. It isn't how these guys...I dunno...ACTUALLY PLAY...it's that.

And when, pray tell, was his jumper falling? He's made 7 threes this year. He's constantly passing up shots that other guys would take and make at a decent clip.

He hasn't played well by any of the metrics that I value for ALL players, bears little to no statistical resemblance to any of the guys that we hope he'll become when they were the same age. Even in the best case scenario, he's a couple of years away from being a 3rd option on a championship contender who's capable of knocking down open 3's with consistency.

Here's a newsflash. If we sign LeBron James, who will be 34 early next season...we're trying to win a title right away. What Brandon Ingram (or any of our other players for that matter) could be when they're 25 is pretty irrelevant to that cause. When the Cavs signed LeBron, they traded Andrew Wiggins...who projected to be a better prospect than Ingram...for a 3rd-option in Kevin Love.

But we wouldn't do the same because a couple of decision-makers that didn't draft him think that maybe Ingram (or anyone else on this team) might be really good...some day? But I guess I'm just saying all that because I just can't get over the Russell trade and none of it actually makes sense.


*finished with my popcorn.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:12 pm    Post subject:

RI Laker wrote:
governator wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
governator wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
I think ideally, Ingram would be a 3rd option who can pick up some of the scoring slack with the 2nd unit. No confidence in his jumper, his FTs stink, and his finishing on half court drives are very inconsistent.

Being thrust into the #1 scoring option early on was tough. He's sort of settling behind Brook as a 1B option, though I still think he's not ready for that role on a playoff level team.

With the trade, I feel like guys like Lonzo/Ingram were put into situations that were not completely ideal (Lonzo needing another facilitator at the guard position in half court; Ingram with having a more versatile perimeter scorer to take the load off of him). It's sink or swim and hopefully we get our 2 max guys who can help Lonzo/Ingram grow a bit more naturally into their roles.

with 2 max platers, BI can go focus on lock down D (and shoot 3)... imagine a 6'9 with 7'3 wingspan T.Allen


With 2 max players, you need guys who can catch & shoot. If we get LBJ & George, I think Ingram is a prime candidate to be moved for a third star who's already under contract.


Like who (and does math $ works)?


There is nobody.


The Cavs D-brothers, Wade and Rose...
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:14 pm    Post subject:

Back to that "He's not good at this narrative, so odds are he'll always not be good at this". smh..

I still maintain those statistical markers are meaningless when trying to project or predict a prospects potential or trajectory.

I'm actually surprised that people even engage in this sort of thing for players that are so raw and undeveloped. Doesn't make an ounce of sense.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:19 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
bballchinaski wrote:
for a dude who preaches patience for young guys you seem to jump on ingram quite fast. Didnt saw you wanting to get rid of him when his jumper was falling, if it falls again do you want to trade him?

Let go of the dlo stuff, it's over man.


Lol at bringing up Russell, I didn't say anything about him. Weird how I'm able to be very optimistic about Lonzo, Kuzma, & even Randle now without Russell getting in the way, but for some reason I can't do it with Ingram. It isn't how these guys...I dunno...ACTUALLY PLAY...it's that.

And when, pray tell, was his jumper falling? He's made 7 threes this year. He's constantly passing up shots that other guys would take and make at a decent clip.

He hasn't played well by any of the metrics that I value for ALL players, bears little to no statistical resemblance to any of the guys that we hope he'll become when they were the same age. Even in the best case scenario, he's a couple of years away from being a 3rd option on a championship contender who's capable of knocking down open 3's with consistency.

Here's a newsflash. If we sign LeBron James, who will be 34 early next season...we're trying to win a title right away. What Brandon Ingram (or any of our other players for that matter) could be when they're 25 is pretty irrelevant to that cause. When the Cavs signed LeBron, they traded Andrew Wiggins...who projected to be a better prospect than Ingram...for a 3rd-option in Kevin Love.

But we wouldn't do the same because a couple of decision-makers that didn't draft him think that maybe Ingram (or anyone else on this team) might be really good...some day? But I guess I'm just saying all that because I just can't get over the Russell trade and none of it actually makes sense.


Haven't you heard? The new defense for being critical of Ingram or any other young player already put on a pedestal is "You're just mad Russell got traded!!!"
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:23 pm    Post subject:

SocalDevin wrote:
Back to that "He's not good at this narrative, so odds are he'll always not be good at this". smh..

I still maintain those statistical markers are meaningless when trying to project or predict a prospects potential or trajectory.

I'm actually surprised that people even engage in this sort of thing for players that are so raw and undeveloped. Doesn't make an ounce of sense.

Are you arguing how good a player is at shooting when he is 20 has no bearing on how good that player will be at shooting in his prime? That's ridiculous.

Certainly it'd be dumb to rule out BI figuring out how to shoot. But skepticism and/or concern seem perfectly reasonable to me. For every Aaron Gordon, there is a Julius Randle.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:27 pm    Post subject:

he had a tough road trip, but he had nice stats before this three game skid. I believe his stats were like 15 ppg, 52.3 TS%, with solid defense as well. So now after three bad games, the sky is falling again. His detractors had been eerily quiet but now are coming out of the woodwork after a few bad games.

Ingram will sink or swim with his jump shot. Hopefully it comes around. It either will or won't, time will tell.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:27 pm    Post subject:

Great game.. "this is why he's untouchable"

Bad game.. "he's probably getting traded, or maybe he should"

The ebbs and flows of this thread has become pretty predictable..

I suppose this takes place in every player thread though. Maybe not in the Clarkson thread, most would like him traded regardless lol.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:34 pm    Post subject:

tox wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
Back to that "He's not good at this narrative, so odds are he'll always not be good at this". smh..

I still maintain those statistical markers are meaningless when trying to project or predict a prospects potential or trajectory.

I'm actually surprised that people even engage in this sort of thing for players that are so raw and undeveloped. Doesn't make an ounce of sense.

Are you arguing how good a player is at shooting when he is 20 has no bearing on how good that player will be at shooting in his prime? That's ridiculous.

Certainly it'd be dumb to rule out BI figuring out how to shoot. But skepticism and/or concern seem perfectly reasonable to me. For every Aaron Gordon, there is a Julius Randle.


That is exactly what I'm arguing.. My point is we don't have a clue as to how things will turn out. Stats on raw prospects aren't a window into the future. I think its absurd to suggest they are. In addition when those stats don't jive with the reality of an individual player becoming proficient in an area that they struggled in it is simply chalked up as an outlier.

I will agree being concerned seems reasonable. Wouldn't make any long term assumptions based on current play though.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:37 pm    Post subject:

SocalDevin wrote:
Great game.. "this is why he's untouchable"

Bad game.. "he's probably getting traded, or maybe he should"

The ebbs and flows of this thread has become pretty predictable..

I suppose this takes place in every player thread though. Maybe not in the Clarkson thread, most would like him traded regardless lol.
even when he was playing well, I told you man, he was passing up open threes. His shooting continues to be an issue. He'll break out of the funk soon and play like he was playing before the slump. But the shooting thing is a real problem.

I don't understand how the Celtics can turn Jaylen Brown into a 3 point shooter but the Lakers can't do the same with Ingram.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:46 pm    Post subject:

dao wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
Great game.. "this is why he's untouchable"

Bad game.. "he's probably getting traded, or maybe he should"

The ebbs and flows of this thread has become pretty predictable..

I suppose this takes place in every player thread though. Maybe not in the Clarkson thread, most would like him traded regardless lol.
even when he was playing well, I told you man, he was passing up open threes. His shooting continues to be an issue. He'll break out of the funk soon and play like he was playing before the slump. But the shooting thing is a real problem.

I don't understand how the Celtics can turn Jaylen Brown into a 3 point shooter but the Lakers can't do the same with Ingram.


No doubt about it.. his shooting is atrocious.

I don't expect it to be a long term issue simply because he understands it's an issue, and the coaching staff. He's working hard to rectify it. I think it's reasonable to expect his shot to get better if he's working his ass off to fix it.

Hard to imagine a scenario in which a guy is working hard to improve on an area of his game and never see any improvement.

Some believe he'll turn the corner at some point, but make the argument that we don't have time to wait on him to develop. I suppose that's debatable. One could make that argument, though I don't agree with it.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:52 pm    Post subject:

I fully believe in Ingram. On offense he has already shown to get buckets driving to the hoop whether by scoring or drawing fouls, as far as his jumper goes it will come eventually. On defense he's already got it figured out and he could be dominant with his frame. You guys gotta remember he was the youngest player in the ENTIRE draft.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:57 pm    Post subject:

dao wrote:
he had a tough road trip, but he had nice stats before this three game skid. I believe his stats were like 15 ppg, 52.3 TS%, with solid defense as well. So now after three bad games, the sky is falling again. His detractors had been eerily quiet but now are coming out of the woodwork after a few bad games.

Ingram will sink or swim with his jump shot. Hopefully it comes around. It either will or won't, time will tell.


This. I think some people want Ingram to fail just to justify their early evaluations.
_________________
It was reminiscent of one of those Most Interesting Man in the World advertisements: "I don't always shoot 6-for-28 from the field, but when I do, I become the youngest player in league history to score 28,000 career points."
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dao
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:01 pm    Post subject:

SocalDevin wrote:
dao wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
Great game.. "this is why he's untouchable"

Bad game.. "he's probably getting traded, or maybe he should"

The ebbs and flows of this thread has become pretty predictable..

I suppose this takes place in every player thread though. Maybe not in the Clarkson thread, most would like him traded regardless lol.
even when he was playing well, I told you man, he was passing up open threes. His shooting continues to be an issue. He'll break out of the funk soon and play like he was playing before the slump. But the shooting thing is a real problem.

I don't understand how the Celtics can turn Jaylen Brown into a 3 point shooter but the Lakers can't do the same with Ingram.


No doubt about it.. his shooting is atrocious.

I don't expect it to be a long term issue simply because he understands it's an issue, and the coaching staff. He's working hard to rectify it. I think it's reasonable to expect his shot to get better if he's working his ass off to fix it.

Hard to imagine a scenario in which a guy is working hard to improve on an area of his game and never see any improvement.

Some believe he'll turn the corner at some point, but make the argument that we don't have time to wait on him to develop. I suppose that's debatable. One could make that argument, though I don't agree with it.

I disagree with that. It's not hard at all to imagine a scenario where someone fails to become a good shooter. It happens all the time.

He's clanking free throws. He really hasn't shown one shred of shooting improvement since he's been in the league. That's baffling to me because he projected to be a solid shooter coming out of the draft.
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