OFFICIAL LONZO BALL THREAD
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Mike@LG
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:29 pm    Post subject:

al242 wrote:
It has been acknowledged that Lonzo is a bust, if I were in Magic’s shoes I would hurry up and trade this scrub for a 2018 lottery pick before it’s too late.


lmao
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socaguy
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:10 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
al242 wrote:
It has been acknowledged that Lonzo is a bust, if I were in Magic’s shoes I would hurry up and trade this scrub for a 2018 lottery pick before it’s too late.


lmao


I hope you'd still be laughing at the end of the year.
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Mike@LG
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:11 pm    Post subject:

socaguy wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
al242 wrote:
It has been acknowledged that Lonzo is a bust, if I were in Magic’s shoes I would hurry up and trade this scrub for a 2018 lottery pick before it’s too late.


lmao


I hope you'd still be laughing at the end of the year.


He's doing so well in many other ways that don't even show up necessarily in the stat sheet, that he keeps getting big minutes.

Ever figure out why?

I was super adamant about Lonzo's lack of scoring abilities during the PreDraft process, so it's not like this wasn't unexpected.
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Last edited by Mike@LG on Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
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socaguy
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:12 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
al242 wrote:
It has been acknowledged that Lonzo is a bust, if I were in Magic’s shoes I would hurry up and trade this scrub for a 2018 lottery pick before it’s too late.


Go be like this somewhere else.


why can't he be "like this" here? was he being disrespectful to another member?
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:14 pm    Post subject:

Billium wrote:
adkindo wrote:
PICKnPOP wrote:
Imagine kobe being a rookie in this social media era lol


He wouldn’t have made it on the lakers past a couple of seasons.


I have seen similar comments on here and they are ludicrous....yes, Kobe had his struggles early on, but it was very clear that he was a very special talent.


Plus there was no question about his work ethic, or at least I don't remember ever worrying about his love for the game and dedication to it. Lonzo needs a better PR person.



You will be saying similar things about Lonzo and Russell in time. It will be “clear” and “obvious” soon enough. Hindsight turns everyone into a genius level scout. Personally I can admit thinking kobe was trash early on in his career. He was selfish and took stupid shots that he would miss horribly. Kobe Bryant would drive me crazy as a fan who was used to watching magic Johnson’s style of basketball. I still hate Kobe’s shot selection but he started making them so you really couldn’t complain much.

Kobe scored 8 points a game his rookie year and 15 points a game his sophmore year. Then broke out and avg 20 his third season....I honestly don’t think he would have made it past his second season in this era. Fans would have crucified his shot selection. Btw his numbers look eerily similar to Russels between his second and third seasons.
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socaguy
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:22 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
socaguy wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
al242 wrote:
It has been acknowledged that Lonzo is a bust, if I were in Magic’s shoes I would hurry up and trade this scrub for a 2018 lottery pick before it’s too late.


lmao


I hope you'd still be laughing at the end of the year.


He's doing so well in many other ways that don't even show up necessarily in the stat sheet, that he keeps getting big minutes.

Ever figure out why?

I was super adamant about Lonzo's lack of scoring abilities during the PreDraft process, so it's not like this wasn't unexpected.


yes. he does a few other things well such as having great visions and rebounding for a guard. also lack of scoring might be related to his confident and other events, happing around him. but i'm not sure if he is the one that brings us back to being relevant. he also hasn't displayed leadership one would expect. his reaction from the incident the other night is a prime example. no one expected him to get in a fight but your teammate has gotten to know that you've got his back.

in short, as a lakers fan, I just hope you and others were right about him
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socaguy
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:22 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
socaguy wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
al242 wrote:
It has been acknowledged that Lonzo is a bust, if I were in Magic’s shoes I would hurry up and trade this scrub for a 2018 lottery pick before it’s too late.


lmao


I hope you'd still be laughing at the end of the year.


He's doing so well in many other ways that don't even show up necessarily in the stat sheet, that he keeps getting big minutes.

Ever figure out why?

I was super adamant about Lonzo's lack of scoring abilities during the PreDraft process, so it's not like this wasn't unexpected.


yes. he does a few other things well such as having great visions and rebounding for a guard. also lack of scoring might be related to his confident and other events, happing around him. but i'm not sure if he is the one that brings us back to being relevant. he also hasn't displayed leadership one would expect. his reaction from the incident the other night is a prime example. no one expected him to get in a fight but your teammate has gotten to know that you've got his back.

in short, as a lakers fan, I just hope you and others were right about him
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Mike@LG
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:26 pm    Post subject:

A few other things well?

I don't think fans are even paying attention to some defensive rotation details, how well he digs on double teams, the fact that he helps with rim protection against bigs, forces increased defensive rebounding because teams are scared to have LAL run against him, etc.

Yeah, teams are going under screens on him. Yet, LAL still up in pace, up in rebounds, and hell, even overall FG% is up compared to last year despite losing the 3 best shooters on the team.

I'd argue, that's WAY more than a few.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2018.html

Otherwise, he just wouldn't be on the floor. Luke wouldn't even play him. Yet, even the best +/- lineups have him in there. Why? Everything else that he does.

There's more to it than just assists and rebounds.

Hell, part of the reason why the Lakers are overall within the Top 5 defenses in the league is because the Lakers are #1 in defensive rebounding. Opponents don't even bother with offensive rebounds. +16% compared to last year is ridiculous, and it isn't just Lonzo "replacing" Russell's rebound total from last year.

What kills me most about this argument is, Lonzo doesn't even take a lot of total shot attempts. It's also everyone else shooting garbage percentages from 3 despite good looks, as if that's Lonzo's fault.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:46 pm    Post subject:

K2 wrote:
LandsbergerRules wrote:
I've been thinking the kid is a bit soft because of how he generally tries to avoid contact when playing. Walking away from the altercation isn't a big deal, but it also wasn't too surprising either.


Not surprised he walked away, seems consistent with what one might expect from him. It could be part of the mechanism to help him tune out the circus around his dad through the years.

A few years back, Kendall Marshall stayed far away from the Swaggy P-takes-on-the-Suns event in 2014. Here he is watching the festivities from the comfort of being on the other side of the court.

http://i43.tinypic.com/5czu45.jpg


Oh damn, He really IS the next Kendall Marshall. jk
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:53 pm    Post subject:

[quote="LandsbergerRules"]
K2 wrote:


Oh damn, He really IS the next Kendall Marshall. jk


at least Kendall showed mild interest by looking in the general direction. hey, he (Kendall) did have a stretch in which he played well and we won a few consecutive games.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:54 pm    Post subject:

Mike, I definitely see his positive impact on rebounding, i.e. other teams not bothering with offensive rebounding.

I guess my main concern coming in was that I didn’t see him penetrate and attack a defense too much in college and with his shot that had me concerned. I mean he is either too underdeveloped or too tentative/lacking confidence to at least attack and draw fouls. That’s one argument that I have seen come up and is a valid criticism imo. Even (J)ason Kidd got to the foul line when he was struggling with his shot. I was confident in the last 2 #2 picks because I could see what DLO or BI would bring. I guess I’m worried Lonzo might have more bust potential if he doesn’t get to just ok shooting or compensate by attacking a defense, making aggressive plays and getting to the foul line.

Given that you watch these guys pretty closely from pre-NBA to NBA, what do you see for him long-term?
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:45 pm    Post subject:

Lakerfan 4 Life wrote:
Quote:
Shahan Ahmed‏Verified account @shahanLA

Luke Walton said that a player did talk to Lonzo about him walking away from the skirmish, but the coach wouldn’t say who. Said he prefers the players handle that type of stuff and share what they want to publicly.


https://twitter.com/shahanLA/status/931990301232660482

It's BI, KCP, Larry, JC, Julius or Bogut that talked to Zo about this i'm guessing.


Oh great. During the next skirmish, Zo, is going to grab a folding chair and go full Kermit Washington on someone.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:05 pm    Post subject:

Lonzo needs to get more than 1.6 free throw attempts a game.

He changes that, I think he'll be fine, for his first year.

There's no reason he shouldn't have kept taking it to Ulis after he discovered Ulis couldn't stop him going to the basket.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:32 pm    Post subject:

I don't think people realize sometimes how close from "bust" to "future star" Lonzo is in terms of his stats in the eyes of what the media would perceive.

If he took and made one more three a game than he does his numbers would look like this

12 PPG
6 RPG
7 APG
1.6 SPG
2.7 TOs

on
36% From the field
37% From Three


Now if we put that into perspective, his three point percentage suddenly skyrockets from where it is with one more taken and made three a game so much it isn't funny. Though he'd still obviously need to work on his 'inside the arc' game. But even still 12/6/7 for a rookie on 37% from three and suddenly everyone gets a lot more patient don't they. Put it next to Ben Simmons numbers

Lonzo 12/6/7
Simmons 17/9/7

and suddenly Lonzo isn't so far off the mark is he?

That's literally how close the kid is to his numbers painting a completely different picture.. one additional taken and made three a game and suddenly he's a future star with 'patience' on his finishing which will come along when he gets stronger and he's 2nd in ROTY candidacy.


It's amazing how close the kid is to that perception yet some people treat it like it's so far.

But as bigger than Lonzo is than most other point guards, I'd like to see him get to the line at least 3-4 times a game. Especially while his shot is still struggling.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:53 pm    Post subject:

I can't think of two players who are more opposite than Kobe and Lonzo. One is a pass first point guard and the other a dominant scorer. But I had a few things to chime in there since it's being discussed.

Kobe's talent was very obvious in the SPL in particular. He was dominant. That having been said, Lonzo was also amazing in the SPL. In the regular season Kobe started off really slow, and had a hard time getting off the bench early on. He missed the start of the season and then his numbers looked like this:

Kobe's rookie year:

November: 5.4 points (40.4% fg, 48.1% 3p), 1.4 rebounds, 0.5 assists, 0.4 blocks, 0.1 steals, 1.4 turnovers in 10.7 minutes
December: 3.4 points (33.3% fg, 22.2% 3p), 1.7 rebounds, 0.8 assists, 0.6 blocks, 0.4 steals, 1.2 turnovers in 9.4 minutes
January: 11.1 points (47.3% fg), 31.3% 3p), 2.7 rebounds, 1.8 assists, 0.5 blocks, 1.3 steals, 2.2 turnovers in 20.7 minutes
February: 4.7 points (25.9% fg, 30.8% 3p), 1.8 rebounds, 0.9 assists, 0.4 blocks, 0.3 steals, 1 turnover in 13.7 minutes
March: 9.6 points (42.5% fg, 37.5% 3p), 2.1 rebounds, 1.4 assits, 0.1 blocks, 1.1 streals, 1.4 turnovers in 18.4 minutes
April: 9.7 points (49.2% fg, 46.7% 3p), 1.5 rebounds, 2.3 assists, 0.2 blocks, 0.7 steals, 2.1 turnovers in 18.6 minutes

It's important to note that we're only midway through November. At that point Kobe was struggling to get off the bench still, he'd follow it up with an awful December where his shooting numbers look an awful lot like Lonzo's. He'd have a good January and follow it up with an awful February before closing the season strong. And then of course he'd have the four airballs to close the playoffs in a series where he shot 31.6% and 21.1% from three but did get 18.8 minutes of playtime.

The main thing to take from that is that I don't care how much Kobe's talent was obvious due to his athleticism and drive, if you took a snapshot of his career in December of that year, he'd be getting killed on the forums. I remember the newsgroups at the time after his four airballs, nicknaming him Air(ball) Kobe. By the next season his teammates were turning against him and the question became whether his selfish style of play was hurting the team.

Lonzo's talent level is obvious, but it's a different kind of talent. He seems to me that he's lost confidence in his jumper, and is also struggling to finish. Those are both things that I'd expect him to get over. It's just a question of when. He was a good shooter previously, he works hard. Whether he reworks his jump shot or whether he sorts it out as is, only time will tell. I tend to think if he doesn't turn it around this year they will rework it this summer, but they'll give him the season to get past what looks to be a mental block. Aside from scoring he's been playing well. Give the kid some time.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:05 pm    Post subject:

Yup re a number of comments above. The kid is nowhere near a finished product yet already has set a record re youngest for a triple double.

The spotlight amongst a number of laker fans has slowly shifted from him to kuz and BI and the past 2 games so has the offense...which is fine. The funny thing about it is it doesn't impact his game...he had 5 steals last night and just not too long ago 3 blocks but nary a peep is discussed about that.

He clearly has talent but we just need to accept the fact this year will have lots of ups / downs with him
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:12 pm    Post subject:

I love reading so many people on here doing mental gymnastics trying to convince themselves that Zo doesn't suck.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:46 pm    Post subject:

BruceLeroy1985 wrote:
I love reading so many people on here doing mental gymnastics trying to convince themselves that Zo doesn't suck.


You are just so clearly smarter than the rest of us I guess, oh last dragon
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:13 am    Post subject:

He has done most of the things well other than scoring. He doesn't have the skill to be a good scorer anyway so this is within my expectation. The way he plays right now is very much like Jason Kidd but unfortunately, I don't think 15 years ago Jason Kidd can survive in this current league due to his lack of shooting.

He doesn't have the speed or advanced dribbling skill to beat his opponent. This makes his shooting even more important if he wants to be a starting PG in this league.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:18 am    Post subject:

DrDent wrote:
BruceLeroy1985 wrote:
I love reading so many people on here doing mental gymnastics trying to convince themselves that Zo doesn't suck.


You are just so clearly smarter than the rest of us I guess, oh last dragon


Its not about intelligence, its homerism. And its normal I guees.
The fact is...if Lonzo was on another team we would all be making fun of him and call him a bust...as everyone else is. Especially if he was on a team we dont like. Like the Clippers for example.
Thats what fans of other 29 teams think about Lonzo now. Hes a joke and most everyone considers him a bust.
But because hes a Laker people here are trying to find positives. I also think its mental gymnastics but hey fans will be fans.

One guy here said he'd only take 8 PG's over Lonzo. Left out the likes of Mike Conley, Dragic, Schroeder, Llilard etc.
Its funny but its to be expected at the same time.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:33 am    Post subject:

LakersNewEra wrote:
...The fact is...if Lonzo was on another team we would all be making fun of him and call him a bust...as everyone else is....


That's not a fact at all. IMO, anyone who is calling a player on any team a bust after 15 games is simply not very smart.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:46 am    Post subject:

DzLaker wrote:
LakersNewEra wrote:
...The fact is...if Lonzo was on another team we would all be making fun of him and call him a bust...as everyone else is....


That's not a fact at all. IMO, anyone who is calling a player on any team a bust after 15 games is simply not very smart.


Do you read any general NBA forums? Man, fans of all teams are calling him a bust. Heck even ESPN, NBA on TNT etc..even they are starting to say he looks like a bust so far.

All I am trying to say is...he"ll be viewed a lot more favorably here than anywhere else. and that is normal.

I do believe and I am fairly certain that hes a bust in terms of being an immediate impact player and he was advertised as such, was advertised as NBA ready. He is not. He is in fact a project at this point and I believe he needs so much work, it"ll take so much time that I probably wouldnt expect much before year 3, more likely even year 4. Part of his appeal was that he was supposed to be NBA ready.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:55 am    Post subject:

So 29/9/11 and 19/13/12 is considered bust material?
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:57 am    Post subject:

P.S Theres a thread in the NBA forum here about Fultz of the Sixers. People calling him a wasted talent, suggesting a trade for Eric Bledsoe etc lol. Maybe the same people that preach patience with Lonzo?
Thats what I am sayinf. Its a normal fan behavior and Lonzo got much more exposure than Fultz therefore fans of other teams are certainly not holding back.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 1:02 am    Post subject:

trablos wrote:
So 29/9/11 and 19/13/12 is considered bust material?


Joe Embiid has scored more points at Staples Center this year than Lonzo Ball. Ball will need about 5 more games to catch up.

Those are excellent numbers. Encouraging. But he is by far the worst starter in all scoring stats for a reason.
He will need time. 3 or 4 years IMO. He is currently not NBA caliner IMO.
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