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epak
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Joined: 30 Aug 2005
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 Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:39 am Post subject: |
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| 44TheLogo wrote: | y'all are misinterpreting Aeneas Hunter's post entirely.
other stats are important only insomuch as they affect your team's ability to put points on the board or deny the other team from putting points on the board. a rebound isn't valuable in and of itself, it's valuable because it prevents the other team from another shot attempt (DReb) or it gives your team another shot attempt (OReb). An assist is valuable if it puts your teammate in an advantageous situation to be able to score better. Moving the ball is important because it forces the defense to move and rotate and cover more ground, which makes it easier to attack - just passing the ball statically back and forth doesn't actually achieve anything, the pass has to create opportunity.
It's easy to forget but at the end of the day, the single most important thing to win games is to score more than the other team. all the stats outside of PPG are important because they help put your team in a position to be more likely to score more than the other team, but, just to use an extreme hypothetical, even if your team has 100 open layups and misses them all, you will lose to the team that has 1 triple teamed jumpshot that went in. |
The end in itself vs a means to an end.
Sure there's a philosophical approach to looking at the numbers.
Not sure that negates the value of a triple double. |
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LakerSD
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Joined: 10 Nov 2016
Posts: 23778
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:43 am Post subject: |
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| Inspector Gadget wrote: | Is anyone hyped to see Ball go up against De’Aaron Fox...? it’s gonna happen.  |
If Lonzo keeps playing defense like he is, Fox is in for a surprise. This is not UCLA Lonzo defense. |
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saetarubia
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Joined: 06 Jul 2014
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:45 am Post subject: |
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20 assists/20 rebounds game isn't far from his reach.
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Aeneas Hunter
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Joined: 12 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:45 am Post subject: |
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| Sentient Meat wrote: | | How do you explain how only elite players seem to get triple doubles, if it is such a random stat? |
That's not true. Here's a list from last season.
http://www.landofbasketball.com/year_by_year_stats/2016_2017_triple_doubles_rs.htm
But to answer your question, it is hardly shocking that star players tend to accumulate a lot of stats. If you pulled up lists of guys who had 30 points, or 15 rebounds, or 15 assists, or whatever, it would mostly be superstars.
The question is why a particular threshold -- the triple double -- is significant. It's because we have an irrational fixation with the number 10. 11/11/11 is not better than 30/8/8.
There are other ways to assess the statistical quality of the performance in a particular game. GmSc is one of them. Ball's GmSc last night was 15.4. That's not bad, but Lopez had an 18.1. There are probably other ways of measuring the statistical quality of the performance in a particular game, if you don't like GmSc. However, you are fixated with an irrational measure -- whether the player happened to reach the magic number of 10 in three categories.
The triple-double was a PR device inspired by Magic Johnson. The media loves it. This inspired Russell Westbrook to make a fool of himself last year, chasing a triple double average. Unfortunately, like a lot of other gimmicks, it can impede critical thinking. |
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Sentient Meat
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Joined: 04 Jul 2014
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:46 am Post subject: |
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I get what some are saying about stats... but let's face it, they will always be an imperfect substitute for sitting down and dissecting each game frame by frame. Stats are nothing but a shorthand to help interpret the game, and yes they can be spun in all sorts of different directions. I understood what some were saying about the flaws of a 30/9/9 game being much superior to a 10/10/10 game... but there's a reason why they don't log 30/9/9 games because they are too rare to be of much use.
My point was that for some reason, whether it is 10/10/10 or 30/20/10... the achievement is very rare and almost exclusively accomplished by elite players. If your bottom 10 starters in each position were putting them up once a week, then maybe they would be an indicator of nothing, but when only top 20 NBA players seem to be doing it, then it seems maybe we should give the stat some respect. |
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eddiejonze
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Joined: 19 Dec 2013
Posts: 7228
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:47 am Post subject: |
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| durden-tyler wrote: | LINK
Players with at least 7 assists per game, sorted by USG%. I like it... |
and all those guys (short of simmons but even that will change) have teammates who make their shots
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epak
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Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 34147
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:48 am Post subject: |
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| LakerSD wrote: | | Inspector Gadget wrote: | | Is anyone hyped to see Ball go up against De’Aaron Fox...? it’s gonna happen. |
If Lonzo keeps playing defense like he is, Fox is in for a surprise. This is not UCLA Lonzo defense. |
Please go under the screen on him  |
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ibij
Starting Rotation
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:50 am Post subject: |
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Today....i learned that freakin triple doubles is nothing.... 
Why Westbrook got his mvp???
Mind boggling
Lonzo cant win...period... |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:50 am Post subject: |
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I still believe in Lonzo!
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Sentient Meat
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Joined: 04 Jul 2014
Posts: 12978
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:51 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | How do you explain how only elite players seem to get triple doubles, if it is such a random stat? |
That's not true. Here's a list from last season.
http://www.landofbasketball.com/year_by_year_stats/2016_2017_triple_doubles_rs.htm
But to answer your question, it is hardly shocking that star players tend to accumulate a lot of stats. If you pulled up lists of guys who had 30 points, or 15 rebounds, or 15 assists, or whatever, it would mostly be superstars.
The question is why a particular threshold -- the triple double -- is significant. It's because we have an irrational fixation with the number 10. 11/11/11 is not better than 30/8/8.
There are other ways to assess the statistical quality of the performance in a particular game. GmSc is one of them. Ball's GmSc last night was 15.4. That's not bad, but Lopez had an 18.1. There are probably other ways of measuring the statistical quality of the performance in a particular game, if you don't like GmSc. However, you are fixated with an irrational measure -- whether the player happened to reach the magic number of 10 in three categories.
The triple-double was a PR device inspired by Magic Johnson. The media loves it. This inspired Russell Westbrook to make a fool of himself last year, chasing a triple double average. Unfortunately, like a lot of other gimmicks, it can impede critical thinking. |
Your list only reinforced my point... Almost all superior players with a few random ones. And the key filter is multiple triple double games which Lonzo already accomplished. |
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epak
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Posts: 34147
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:53 am Post subject: |
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| Sentient Meat wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | How do you explain how only elite players seem to get triple doubles, if it is such a random stat? |
That's not true. Here's a list from last season.
http://www.landofbasketball.com/year_by_year_stats/2016_2017_triple_doubles_rs.htm
But to answer your question, it is hardly shocking that star players tend to accumulate a lot of stats. If you pulled up lists of guys who had 30 points, or 15 rebounds, or 15 assists, or whatever, it would mostly be superstars.
The question is why a particular threshold -- the triple double -- is significant. It's because we have an irrational fixation with the number 10. 11/11/11 is not better than 30/8/8.
There are other ways to assess the statistical quality of the performance in a particular game. GmSc is one of them. Ball's GmSc last night was 15.4. That's not bad, but Lopez had an 18.1. There are probably other ways of measuring the statistical quality of the performance in a particular game, if you don't like GmSc. However, you are fixated with an irrational measure -- whether the player happened to reach the magic number of 10 in three categories.
The triple-double was a PR device inspired by Magic Johnson. The media loves it. This inspired Russell Westbrook to make a fool of himself last year, chasing a triple double average. Unfortunately, like a lot of other gimmicks, it can impede critical thinking. |
Your list only reinforced my point... Almost all superior players with a few random ones. And the key filter is multiple triple double games which Lonzo already accomplished. |
Yea. Check that list. The only guys with multiple triple doubles last year (11 total) that arent elite are probably Payton and Julius. |
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eddiejonze
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Joined: 19 Dec 2013
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:56 am Post subject: |
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| justsomelakerfan wrote: | | Hating Lonzo is going to become so cool that hipster, pro-small market writers and podcasters will do a 180 and actually appreciate him |
Living in silverlake, i love this comment lol.
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Super Mega Team
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Joined: 25 Jul 2008
Posts: 3877
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:58 am Post subject: |
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deleted
Last edited by Super Mega Team on Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:03 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Dr. Laker
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Joined: 12 Apr 2002
Posts: 17104
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:59 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | How do you explain how only elite players seem to get triple doubles, if it is such a random stat? |
That's not true. Here's a list from last season.
http://www.landofbasketball.com/year_by_year_stats/2016_2017_triple_doubles_rs.htm
But to answer your question, it is hardly shocking that star players tend to accumulate a lot of stats. If you pulled up lists of guys who had 30 points, or 15 rebounds, or 15 assists, or whatever, it would mostly be superstars.
The question is why a particular threshold -- the triple double -- is significant. It's because we have an irrational fixation with the number 10. 11/11/11 is not better than 30/8/8.
There are other ways to assess the statistical quality of the performance in a particular game. GmSc is one of them. Ball's GmSc last night was 15.4. That's not bad, but Lopez had an 18.1. There are probably other ways of measuring the statistical quality of the performance in a particular game, if you don't like GmSc. However, you are fixated with an irrational measure -- whether the player happened to reach the magic number of 10 in three categories.
The triple-double was a PR device inspired by Magic Johnson. The media loves it. This inspired Russell Westbrook to make a fool of himself last year, chasing a triple double average. Unfortunately, like a lot of other gimmicks, it can impede critical thinking. |
Yawn.
Lonzo posting a trip dub is a good thing.
I've read a couple of different articles downplaying (specifically) Lonzo's feat last night. "Triple-doubles are watered down in today's game, players pad stats and go after triple doubles intentionally, the triple double doesn't directly lead to victory," etc., etc., ad nauseam.
The fact is he impacted the gamein multiple ways and his stat line indicated that. No, he was not as impactful as Michael Jordan in Game 6 of the 1998 Finals, but he was impactful.
It's not like he took 40 shots or had 14 turnovers - he played a nice, controlled game.
THE LONZO HATE - ON A LAKERS BOARD - IS FLAT OUT STUNNING.
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On Lakersground, a concern troll is someone who is a fan of another team, but pretends to be a Lakers fan with "concerns". |
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Aeneas Hunter
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Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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| 44TheLogo wrote: | y'all are misinterpreting Aeneas Hunter's post entirely.
other stats are important only insomuch as they affect your team's ability to put points on the board or deny the other team from putting points on the board. a rebound isn't valuable in and of itself, it's valuable because it prevents the other team from another shot attempt (DReb) or it gives your team another shot attempt (OReb). An assist is valuable if it puts your teammate in an advantageous situation to be able to score better. Moving the ball is important because it forces the defense to move and rotate and cover more ground, which makes it easier to attack - just passing the ball statically back and forth doesn't actually achieve anything, the pass has to create opportunity.
It's easy to forget but at the end of the day, the single most important thing to win games is to score more than the other team. all the stats outside of PPG are important because they help put your team in a position to be more likely to score more than the other team, but, just to use an extreme hypothetical, even if your team has 100 open layups and misses them all, you will lose to the team that has 1 triple teamed jumpshot that went in. |
Yes, that is the point.
Here is a thought exercise. Suppose that a team is averaging 100 points per game with 20 assists. The coach decides that he wants more assists, so he makes the players pass the ball more. Now the team averages 30 assists per game, but only 95 points. Has the coach accomplished anything?
It is easy to get lost in the stats and forget that the only thing that matters is scoring and preventing the other team from scoring. In baseball, this was one of the contributions of the early sabermetric guys like Bill James. Home runs and steals may sell tickets, but run creation and run prevention are what it is all about. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Sentient Meat wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | How do you explain how only elite players seem to get triple doubles, if it is such a random stat? |
That's not true. Here's a list from last season.
http://www.landofbasketball.com/year_by_year_stats/2016_2017_triple_doubles_rs.htm
But to answer your question, it is hardly shocking that star players tend to accumulate a lot of stats. If you pulled up lists of guys who had 30 points, or 15 rebounds, or 15 assists, or whatever, it would mostly be superstars.
The question is why a particular threshold -- the triple double -- is significant. It's because we have an irrational fixation with the number 10. 11/11/11 is not better than 30/8/8.
There are other ways to assess the statistical quality of the performance in a particular game. GmSc is one of them. Ball's GmSc last night was 15.4. That's not bad, but Lopez had an 18.1. There are probably other ways of measuring the statistical quality of the performance in a particular game, if you don't like GmSc. However, you are fixated with an irrational measure -- whether the player happened to reach the magic number of 10 in three categories.
The triple-double was a PR device inspired by Magic Johnson. The media loves it. This inspired Russell Westbrook to make a fool of himself last year, chasing a triple double average. Unfortunately, like a lot of other gimmicks, it can impede critical thinking. |
Your list only reinforced my point... Almost all superior players with a few random ones. And the key filter is multiple triple double games which Lonzo already accomplished. |
So basically you responded to the first sentence and took a pass on the rest. Okay. |
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trablos
Star Player
Joined: 10 May 2017
Posts: 3020
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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I would be happier if Lonzo had a 30/9/8 game instead of a 12/11/10 game  |
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Sentient Meat
Franchise Player
Joined: 04 Jul 2014
Posts: 12978
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | How do you explain how only elite players seem to get triple doubles, if it is such a random stat? |
That's not true. Here's a list from last season.
http://www.landofbasketball.com/year_by_year_stats/2016_2017_triple_doubles_rs.htm
But to answer your question, it is hardly shocking that star players tend to accumulate a lot of stats. If you pulled up lists of guys who had 30 points, or 15 rebounds, or 15 assists, or whatever, it would mostly be superstars.
The question is why a particular threshold -- the triple double -- is significant. It's because we have an irrational fixation with the number 10. 11/11/11 is not better than 30/8/8.
There are other ways to assess the statistical quality of the performance in a particular game. GmSc is one of them. Ball's GmSc last night was 15.4. That's not bad, but Lopez had an 18.1. There are probably other ways of measuring the statistical quality of the performance in a particular game, if you don't like GmSc. However, you are fixated with an irrational measure -- whether the player happened to reach the magic number of 10 in three categories.
The triple-double was a PR device inspired by Magic Johnson. The media loves it. This inspired Russell Westbrook to make a fool of himself last year, chasing a triple double average. Unfortunately, like a lot of other gimmicks, it can impede critical thinking. |
Your list only reinforced my point... Almost all superior players with a few random ones. And the key filter is multiple triple double games which Lonzo already accomplished. |
So basically you responded to the first sentence and took a pass on the rest. Okay. |
No I had addressed it earlier in my post directly under yours that we had posted about the same time about 10 comments up. The part where I said I understood the imperfections of the stat, but that I personally found it useful for filtering out quality players. |
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AFireInside619
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Joined: 11 Dec 2015
Posts: 11447
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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| So no matter who our point guard is we love playing against Mudiay huh? Lonzo made him look like a little kid. Same with Bledsoe. The same Bledsoe Lebron was clamoring to play with. Think about that. Zo can son a player that Lebron was hoping to play with. Lebron can step in and take credit for Zo, just like Shaw stepped in and took credit for Wade. It wouldn't be the truth, but whatever works to get these giant egos with tremendous talent onto your team. |
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Lakesh0wtime
Star Player
Joined: 28 Mar 2016
Posts: 5351
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Lonzo and Pelinka about to be on Mason and Ireland |
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trablos
Star Player
Joined: 10 May 2017
Posts: 3020
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Lakesh0wtime wrote: | | Lonzo and Pelinka about to be on Mason and Ireland |
A joint interview?? That's kinda strange. |
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JustWinBaby
Rookie
Joined: 23 Oct 2017
Posts: 18
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | 44TheLogo wrote: | y'all are misinterpreting Aeneas Hunter's post entirely.
other stats are important only insomuch as they affect your team's ability to put points on the board or deny the other team from putting points on the board. a rebound isn't valuable in and of itself, it's valuable because it prevents the other team from another shot attempt (DReb) or it gives your team another shot attempt (OReb). An assist is valuable if it puts your teammate in an advantageous situation to be able to score better. Moving the ball is important because it forces the defense to move and rotate and cover more ground, which makes it easier to attack - just passing the ball statically back and forth doesn't actually achieve anything, the pass has to create opportunity.
It's easy to forget but at the end of the day, the single most important thing to win games is to score more than the other team. all the stats outside of PPG are important because they help put your team in a position to be more likely to score more than the other team, but, just to use an extreme hypothetical, even if your team has 100 open layups and misses them all, you will lose to the team that has 1 triple teamed jumpshot that went in. |
Yes, that is the point.
Here is a thought exercise. Suppose that a team is averaging 100 points per game with 20 assists. The coach decides that he wants more assists, so he makes the players pass the ball more. Now the team averages 30 assists per game, but only 95 points. Has the coach accomplished anything?
It is easy to get lost in the stats and forget that the only thing that matters is scoring and preventing the other team from scoring. In baseball, this was one of the contributions of the early sabermetric guys like Bill James. Home runs and steals may sell tickets, but run creation and run prevention are what it is all about. |
What makes you think passing more score less points? Maybe 30 passes led to 105 points. |
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Dr. Laker
Franchise Player
Joined: 12 Apr 2002
Posts: 17104
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | In baseball, this was one of the contributions of the early sabermetric guys like Bill James. Home runs and steals may sell tickets, but run creation and run prevention are what it is all about. |
One of my pet peeves. Genius Billy Beane, in 20 years of running the A's, has put together teams that averaged 83 wins, with no Pennants and 6 playoff appearances.
Theo Epstein put together 2 WS winners in Boston and another with the Cubs - two franchises that were in 90 and 100+ year droughts, respectively - by grabbing players who hit home runs and pitchers with low ERAs and high strikeouts . . .
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On Lakersground, a concern troll is someone who is a fan of another team, but pretends to be a Lakers fan with "concerns". |
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Inspector Gadget
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Joined: 18 Apr 2016
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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| trablos wrote: | | Lakesh0wtime wrote: | | Lonzo and Pelinka about to be on Mason and Ireland |
A joint interview?? That's kinda strange. |
Yeah seems strange for both to be on at the same time. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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Joined: 12 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Sentient Meat wrote: | | No I had addressed it earlier in my post directly under yours that we had posted about the same time about 10 comments up. The part where I said I understood the imperfections of the stat, but that I personally found it useful for filtering out quality players. |
Eh. Maybe that's true for you, but it didn't seem that useful to other people on this board when people like Lebron and Rondo were running up triple doubles. Are triple doubles a useful filter, or are triple doubles a useful filter because Ball got a couple? |
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