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J.C. Smith
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Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 12668
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 Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Sentient Meat wrote: | | If you're going to give Randle credit when he shuts down centers, you have to give him partial blame when he doesn't. This was mostly on Brook, but it also shows the need to have a true mobile center with size. No shame that WCS and Zach dominated but I don't think he can control the 7 footers. |
Except this was almost entirely on Brook. There were a handful of points scored total on Randle from those guys. That throw down by WCS, and a couple of Randolph scores. Randolph scored half of his points before Randle even got into the game though.
It also looked like he got shorted a block for the second straight game. Last game Lopez got credit for one of Randle's blocks, and tonight I could have sworn he blocked WCS' dunk attempt (only for him to regrab the board and dunk on him) and also blocked a three point attempt. |
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OCWA
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Joined: 23 Jan 2006
Posts: 3660
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| Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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| I've turned the corner on Randle. I think he now understands where he is valuable and he is putting in the effort and not trying to do too much. An energy role player with sporadic sequences of domination. His value is rising and he is making himself a bunch of money with the way he is playing. |
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anpherknee
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Joined: 14 Mar 2014
Posts: 16933
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| Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:22 pm Post subject: |
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| J.C. Smith wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | If you're going to give Randle credit when he shuts down centers, you have to give him partial blame when he doesn't. This was mostly on Brook, but it also shows the need to have a true mobile center with size. No shame that WCS and Zach dominated but I don't think he can control the 7 footers. |
Except this was almost entirely on Brook. There were a handful of points scored total on Randle from those guys. That throw down by WCS, and a couple of Randolph scores. Randolph scored half of his points before Randle even got into the game though.
It also looked like he got shorted a block for the second straight game. Last game Lopez got credit for one of Randle's blocks, and tonight I could have sworn he blocked WCS' dunk attempt (only for him to regrab the board and dunk on him) and also blocked a three point attempt. |
that was on skal, I think they gave him that one
he forced a couple airballs but iono if he got his hands on any of em |
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Sentient Meat
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Joined: 04 Jul 2014
Posts: 12978
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| Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:52 pm Post subject: |
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| I don't think I said he did a bad job, I said that he's limited against a true seven footer. He reminds me of a mini Shaq. If the rim was at nine feet he'd be an unstoppable player... but sadly it's ten feet so he's kind of a tweener. As I said, this loss was mostly Brook... Clarkson too, was out of control... Julius tried hard but he's not really built to stop giants... which is why I think we need Cousins or DeAndre instead. |
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Mirjalovic
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Joined: 16 Jul 2010
Posts: 95
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| Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Sentient Meat wrote: | | If you're going to give Randle credit when he shuts down centers, you have to give him partial blame when he doesn't. This was mostly on Brook, but it also shows the need to have a true mobile center with size. No shame that WCS and Zach dominated but I don't think he can control the 7 footers. |
Except Zach scoring on Kuzma and Lopez. Randle barely guard WCS. Randle basically stop Zach from scoring and Grizz's coach had to bench Zach when Randle on the floor. |
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Sentient Meat
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Joined: 04 Jul 2014
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:06 am Post subject: |
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| Mirjalovic wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | If you're going to give Randle credit when he shuts down centers, you have to give him partial blame when he doesn't. This was mostly on Brook, but it also shows the need to have a true mobile center with size. No shame that WCS and Zach dominated but I don't think he can control the 7 footers. |
Except Zach scoring on Kuzma and Lopez. Randle barely guard WCS. Randle basically stop Zach from scoring and Grizz's coach had to bench Zach when Randle on the floor. |
Randle's been good with small lineups... but there's only so much you can do if someone's four inches taller with a foot longer arm span. There's no justifiable reason why KCP or even Ingram should be trying to body up WCS. Just because he's switching on to other players doesn't mean he shouldn't at least help.
I agree with what someone said on the stickied thread... we should have tried Bryant in this situation... but just because Julius wasn't dealing directly with the problem, doesn't mean he wasn't part of the equation. I blame Luke for leaving inadequate solutions... but it looked like Bogut was dealing with a horrible back issue, so maybe that was the problem. |
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tox
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Joined: 16 Nov 2015
Posts: 17876
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:56 am Post subject: |
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| LakerSanity wrote: | | tox wrote: | | LakerSanity wrote: | | And RPM is not a useful tool, IMO, when comparing players on two different teams. It can be useful when comparing players on the same team, however. |
I disagree. It's a great tool to compare players on two different teams, as far as all-in-one stats go. The key is to keep in mind its limitations.
In particular, there is the issue of previous year priors: RPM uses previous years' RPM values to help calibrate where a player should be. In general, this is good and leads to stable results. But for a player who's made a serious improvement like Julius, it will underrate him as it continues to expect him to regress somewhat to previous years' values. |
Either I don't understand RPM or we're talking about two different things. We're both talking about real plus/minus right? I thought RPM simply tracks how many more points your team scores on average, per 100 possessions with you on the floor, and how many more/less points your team gives up per 100 possessions with you on the floor normalizing those scores to eliminate teammate bias. However, it can only differentiate teammates you play with on your team, but can't differentiate how you might play (or your impact) next to teammates on another team.
In other words, RPM cannot normalize playing as part of an entirely different roster night to night, right? |
Sorta. It's plus/minus, but it just adjusts for both your teammates and your opponents. So in theory, it should isolate your particular effect on winning. That impact should therefore be able to be compared to any other scenario. That's the point of removing teammate/opponent effects.
It's not necessarily perfect at it, so you can argue Draymond's ORPM is boosted by virtue of playing on the Warriors. But in general, you should be able to compare players across teams.
What I was saying above is that to stabilize results, RPM uses past years' performance as sort of an "initial guess" if you want to think about it that way. So clearly Randle is disadvantaged compared to Draymond because RPM's initial guess of Randle's performance was pretty poor. |
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30
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Joined: 20 Feb 2012
Posts: 4985
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:07 am Post subject: |
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| Sentient Meat wrote: | | If you're going to give Randle credit when he shuts down centers, you have to give him partial blame when he doesn't. This was mostly on Brook, but it also shows the need to have a true mobile center with size. No shame that WCS and Zach dominated but I don't think he can control the 7 footers. |
While Randle didn't do the best job on WCS, I think the defensive scheme was mostly to blame for why WCS had such a great game. Against Chicago when Luke trotted out our "small-ball" lineup, we switched everything and had Randle containing guards on the PnR. We tried that again tonight and I think we were late on some rotations and the Kings did a good job of finding WCS when he was guarded by Josh Hart or Clarkson. |
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J.C. Smith
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Joined: 23 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:18 am Post subject: |
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Randle has been a net gain at both PF and C this season but he's really shined at center, where he's played 34% of the total center minutes and the team has won 58% of the matchups during his stints at center.
Randle vs. Opposing center stat wise this season. All numbers per 48 minutes, number in parenthesis is in relation to the opposing teams center during those minutes.
21.9 PER (+5.1)
28.7 points (+5.5)
58.9% eFG (+2.7%)
16.1 rebounds (+2.6)
4.5 assists (+1.7)
1.9 blocks (-0.7) |
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Chronicle
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Joined: 21 Jul 2012
Posts: 31935
Location: Manhattan
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 7:16 am Post subject: |
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| J.C. Smith wrote: | Randle has been a net gain at both PF and C this season but he's really shined at center, where he's played 34% of the total center minutes and the team has won 58% of the matchups during his stints at center.
Randle vs. Opposing center stat wise this season. All numbers per 48 minutes, number in parenthesis is in relation to the opposing teams center during those minutes.
21.9 PER (+5.1)
28.7 points (+5.5)
58.9% eFG (+2.7%)
16.1 rebounds (+2.6)
4.5 assists (+1.7)
1.9 blocks (-0.7) |
Which frontcourt partner is he most successful with when he's center? Lots of us on LG are iffy about the Nance/Randle frontcourt, but maybe the stats disagree
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LakersNewEra
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Joined: 16 Apr 2014
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Location: Vancouver BC
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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I thought Randle was a game changer defensively. Kings were hitting everything though. Really hard to play those games sometimes when the other team is just hot but as always we looked much better with Randle. Is there any doubt in anyone that he is a much better player than Lopez at this point? In terms of impacting the game?
Sure if he is going to be a long term center he will need to learn to deal with bigger players which isnt easy of course, only so much you can do in some of those situations but he can get better at it. Remember, he just started playing center this year.
Overall I thought Randlr was great and a game changer. Something he he's been consistantly this year. Kudos. Becoming a great player IMO. |
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venturalakersfan
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Location: The Gold Coast
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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Randle knows how to guard those taller players, push them out away from the basket. There are a few bigs who are strong enough to make that difficult and some like Embiid who can just shoot over him after being pushed out.
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RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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RI Laker
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Posts: 7147
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Randle's problems come with athletic bigs. |
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J.C. Smith
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Joined: 23 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Chronicle wrote: | | Which frontcourt partner is he most successful with when he's center? Lots of us on LG are iffy about the Nance/Randle frontcourt, but maybe the stats disagree |
Two man lineups with Randle:
Lopez: +2.6 in 2.8 minutes per game (8 games) +0.93/min
Ball: +1.9 in 10 minutes (19 games) +0.19/min
Ennis: +1.8 in 4.3 minutes (9 games) +0.42/min
Blue: +1.7 in 8.3 minutes (3 games) +0.2/min
Hart: +1.4 in 11 minutes (14 games) +0.13/min
Pope: +1.4 in 11.3 minutes (17 games) +0.12/min
Brewer: -0.1 in 8.4 minutes (19 games) -0.01/min
Ingram: -0.2 in 9.8 minutes (19 games) -0.02/min
Kuzma: -0.3 in 14.9 minutes (19 games) -0.02/min
Clarkson: -0.9 in 16.4 minutes (19 games) -0.06/min
Bogut: -1.1 in 7.9 mins (7 games) -0.14/min
Nance: -1.5 in 2.3 mins (2 games) -0.65/min
Zubac: -1.5 in 1.8 minutes (2 games) -0.83/min
Caruso: -9.5 in 7.8 minutes (2 games) -1.3/min
Lopez has been the best matchup by a wide margin but he's the least played one. After that is Kuzma who used to be a positive with Randle but since he moved into the starting lineup they had a couple of bad lineups together and he's now a net negative. Bogut has actually gone the other direction the Kuzma/Randle/Bogut lineup they tried in the first couple games was slaughtered but since then Bogut and Randle have played better together but haven't dug their way out of that big hole. Nance and Randle haven't played enough minutes together just 4.6 minutes all year.
Our top lineups per 100 possessions, for this filter I put a minimum 3 games played together to get rid of all of the anomolous lineups. The minutes here are per 100 possessions so its screwy but I'm too lazy to run the math to get it right.
Top 5 man units
Clarkson/Pope/Hart/Kuzma/Randle: +51.8 in 42.4 minutes in 3 games
Ball/Pope/Ingram/Randle/Lopez: +40.7 in 41.7 minutes in 3 games
Ball/Clarkson/Pope/Ingram/Lopez: +40.7 in 49.1 minutes in 3 games
Ball/Clarkson/Brewer/Kuzma/Randle: +32.4 in 39.5 minutes in 4 games
Ball/Clarkson/Ingram/Nance/Bogut: +29.8 in 41.9 minutes in 3 games
Ball/Clarkson/Pope/Ingram/Randle: +26.7 in 38.7 minutes in 4 games
Clarkson/Hart/Ingram/Kuzma/Randle: +26.1 in 48.7 mnutes in 6 games
Ball/Pope/Ingram/Kuzma/Randle: +25.9 in 47.8 minutes in 13 games
Ennis/Clarkson/Brewer/Kuzma/Randle: +17.5 in 49.1 minutes in 3 games
Ball/Clarkson/Ingram/Kuzma/Lopez: +15.5 in 47.6 minutes in 3 games
Clarkson/Pope/Ingram/Randle/Lopez: +14.3 in 52.4 minutes in 3 games
Kuzma and Randle worked very well in some of those units, as did Lopez and Randle. However Kuzma/Randle had some disatrous units together too which is why they are a net negative. These two in particular:
Ball/Clarkson/Ingram/Kuzma/Randle: -100 in 32.3 minutes in 5 games
Clarkson/Pope/Ingram/Kuzma/Randle: -40.4 in 51.6 minutes in 8 games |
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leandromato1
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Joined: 13 Oct 2017
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Monkey brain |
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epak
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Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 34147
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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| leandromato1 wrote: | | Monkey brain |
Made some bad plays on offense. Real bad. You're not a 3 point shooter! 
But he was a +11 and got to the line 10 times making 7. |
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LakerLand247
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Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Posts: 4809
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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| leandromato1 wrote: | | Monkey brain |
The dish from Indian Jones and the Temple of Doom. Yum |
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J.C. Smith
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Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 12668
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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Up and down game from Randle, a couple of forced drives and offensive fouls. The two three point attempts were good attempts, he has to take those shots when he's that open. But unable to hit on either. Despite that he put some points on the board and the team was a better team when he was on the court. He shut down the Clipper guards when they were switching him, they couldn't get anything out of it and went away from trying.
That fourth quarter lineup needed more shooting though, really needed Kuzma in there instead of Nance, particularly after Blake went down. Or possibly even Clarkson in place of Ingram. That unit was getting some stops but once they clogged the lane on Ingram the offense was stalled. |
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bandiger
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Joined: 02 Apr 2014
Posts: 12555
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| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:07 am Post subject: |
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| J.C. Smith wrote: | Up and down game from Randle, a couple of forced drives and offensive fouls. The two three point attempts were good attempts, he has to take those shots when he's that open. But unable to hit on either. Despite that he put some points on the board and the team was a better team when he was on the court. He shut down the Clipper guards when they were switching him, they couldn't get anything out of it and went away from trying.
That fourth quarter lineup needed more shooting though, really needed Kuzma in there instead of Nance, particularly after Blake went down. Or possibly even Clarkson in place of Ingram. That unit was getting some stops but once they clogged the lane on Ingram the offense was stalled. |
Nah, Ingram did alright in closing periods. You take out Ball when he building walls regulary each game especially if JC is having a good efficient game. Its not that complicated if he or his staff were watching the game. |
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22
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Joined: 05 Apr 2013
Posts: 17063
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| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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From GT's Twitter:
| Quote: | Here are the Top 7 lineups for the Lakers that have played at least 10 minutes. See if you can spot the common thread. The only other lineup that's better than +1.7 Net Rtg is the starting lineup in that weird PHX game the 2nd game of the season, w/Brewer instead of KCP.
https://twitter.com/LakerFilmRoom/status/935579921262329856 |
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troy
Star Player
Joined: 30 Jan 2013
Posts: 4975
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| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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Randle, one of my favorite players, needs to be taught how to play in the low post. Currently, he has flaws in his game. He tends to hold the ball too low (resulting his shot getting blocked often), and he has poor body control (resulting in his drawing charges). He's also not strong enough, physically.
Last year, he had problems finishing close, but he seems to have improved that.
I'd like to see someone like Kevin McHale be hired to work with him. I know it won't happen, but we need someone to tutor him on the low post game. |
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epak
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Posts: 34147
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| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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| 22 wrote: | From GT's Twitter:
| Quote: | Here are the Top 7 lineups for the Lakers that have played at least 10 minutes. See if you can spot the common thread. The only other lineup that's better than +1.7 Net Rtg is the starting lineup in that weird PHX game the 2nd game of the season, w/Brewer instead of KCP.
https://twitter.com/LakerFilmRoom/status/935579921262329856 |
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Nice.
Note also that he's on the bottom 2 net rating for lineups over 10 mins at -28.6 and -27.4. More + then - for sure. |
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socalsp3
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Joined: 07 Jul 2016
Posts: 3502
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| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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| 22 wrote: | From GT's Twitter:
| Quote: | Here are the Top 7 lineups for the Lakers that have played at least 10 minutes. See if you can spot the common thread. The only other lineup that's better than +1.7 Net Rtg is the starting lineup in that weird PHX game the 2nd game of the season, w/Brewer instead of KCP.
https://twitter.com/LakerFilmRoom/status/935579921262329856 |
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Strange Lopez is in only one of those lineups yet he still starts. Kuz in most yet he doesn't  |
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22
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Joined: 05 Apr 2013
Posts: 17063
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| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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| socalsp3 wrote: | | 22 wrote: | From GT's Twitter:
| Quote: | Here are the Top 7 lineups for the Lakers that have played at least 10 minutes. See if you can spot the common thread. The only other lineup that's better than +1.7 Net Rtg is the starting lineup in that weird PHX game the 2nd game of the season, w/Brewer instead of KCP.
https://twitter.com/LakerFilmRoom/status/935579921262329856 |
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Strange Lopez is in only one of those lineups yet he still starts. Kuz in most yet he doesn't |
Politics man smh |
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epak
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Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 34147
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| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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| 22 wrote: | | socalsp3 wrote: | | 22 wrote: | From GT's Twitter:
| Quote: | Here are the Top 7 lineups for the Lakers that have played at least 10 minutes. See if you can spot the common thread. The only other lineup that's better than +1.7 Net Rtg is the starting lineup in that weird PHX game the 2nd game of the season, w/Brewer instead of KCP.
https://twitter.com/LakerFilmRoom/status/935579921262329856 |
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Strange Lopez is in only one of those lineups yet he still starts. Kuz in most yet he doesn't |
Politics man smh |
Can you explain to me why Lopez starting and Kuzma not being politics? |
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