Lakers should encourage Lonzo to change shot now ?
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Stumpy25
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:09 am    Post subject:

The problem is that Lonzo is actually making his shots in practice so what's broken? His shot or his head?
In that case there's others on the Lakers that are in that same situation. Look at BI, Randle and Nance, maybe they need to change their shot too.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:23 am    Post subject:

Stumpy25 wrote:
The problem is that Lonzo is actually making his shots in practice so what's broken? His shot or his head?
In that case there's others on the Lakers that are in that same situation. Look at BI, Randle and Nance, maybe they need to change their shot too.


Why are we so fearful of touching our golden rookie? The stats don't lie.

Lonzo is obviously a project-player with a glaring in-game weakness, but still has a huge upside. I hope we can all agree, EVENTUALLY (if and when he changes his shot), he will need to shoot this new form in-game. I just hope it happens this year.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:48 am    Post subject:

Change it now, I doubt he will shoot a worse percentage while under going shooting change. Right now he's historically atrocious
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:56 am    Post subject:

Stumpy25 wrote:
The problem is that Lonzo is actually making his shots in practice so what's broken? His shot or his head?
In that case there's others on the Lakers that are in that same situation. Look at BI, Randle and Nance, maybe they need to change their shot too.


You know, we hear that a lot, but what does that mean? Like 60%? 80%?

What about shooting drills? Is he making 95% of his shots?
Maybe on off days, he should stay on the court until he has at least 1500 makes for the day?

Seriously, once his offensive skills kick in, even with this exact team, we would sitting with at least 4 fewer losses than we have now.

Maybe it'll be OK this season, but it'll make it that much harder to make the playoffs.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:02 am    Post subject:

Lonzo has never really proven himself as a shooter. In college Lonzo took 13 or more shots in only 2 of the 36 games he played. (and he avg about 9-10 shots per game, with 5 of those being 3s) In his first 18 games in the NBA lonzo has already taken 13 or more shots in his first 8 games. Plus, he has come really close to that about 5 times more. So, you could argue that 13 out of first 18 games he has taken more shots in NBA games then he has ever taken in college...

So, we have to also look at Luke Walton and the Lakers philolosphy. Are they actually putting Lonzo Ball in the best position to be successful by telling him to just keep shooting, when he doesnt have a track record of taking 13+ shots in college.

He has a bad form that is being exposed to better competition and would benefit from some actual coaching...I was taught when you couldn't shoot well, take a dribble in or go to the basket. I'm sorry, it makes no sense for someone with no track record of being a volume shooter, to keep shooting low percentage shots that he has never shown a consistent history of hitting...

Lonzo made about 2.2 threes per night in college. If I was Luke Walton, he should be limited to 4 three's a night until his shooting improves.....Lonzo is at about 4.8 right now. That's where he should be. The problem is those games where he goes 1-5, 0-6, etc, etc. He needs to stop around 4 threes and call it a night. it's funny, lavar ball is kind of right...i cant get past the thinking that luke walton thinks lonzo ball is steph curry and that has never been the case....telling steph curry to keep shooting makes sense..but lonzo needs to be told, hey, dont take over 4 threes, and take it to the basket.

Lonzo needs to go on a shooting diet.

4 threes a game max.
7 shots should be drives to the basket or mid-range.

Lonzo is avg about 11 shots at the basket a game. He needs to understand that a part of the reason his shooting is bothering him so much, is that he's simply trying to do something that he has never done- while facing better competition and more pressure.


Last edited by fusuyballer on Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:13 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:11 am    Post subject:

Shooters don't need high volume to prove they can shoot.

Steve Kerr wasn't a high volume shooter. Neither is Kyle Korver. I could keep going.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:12 am    Post subject:

Stumpy25 wrote:
The problem is that Lonzo is actually making his shots in practice so what's broken? His shot or his head?
In that case there's others on the Lakers that are in that same situation. Look at BI, Randle and Nance, maybe they need to change their shot too.


It's his fingers on the release point. I know I see the "Live Long and Prosper" on the guide hand, but on the shooting hand? Since when does he shoot like a webbed player?
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:21 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Shooters don't need high volume to prove they can shoot.

Steve Kerr wasn't a high volume shooter. Neither is Kyle Korver. I could keep going.


The main/darn near only reason steve kerr and kyle krover are/were on nba rosters is because they can shoot the h3ll out of the ball. All it takes is one look at their form and the ball going through the net and everyone knows they can shoot. Just like most great shooters. It doesnt take long to figure out who can shoot and who is okay, avg, etc.

So, i agree with you that shooters dont need high volumes to prove they can shoot. However, my point is, that Lonzo Ball (being that his shooting form) has always been an issue since high school, his college shooting numbers are probably a litte mis-leading...simply because college defense isn't as good as the nba and he limited his shooting to about 10 attempts a game. (4 of them being in the paint, where finishing was a lot easier in college for him) If Lonzo Ball was taking 15-20 shots per game in college and shot 55 and 41% from 3, i would be first person to say, yeah, keep shooting..he's clearly someone who has a history of volume shooting, forget his funky mechanics, he's a great shooter, but that's not the case.

He's clearly not that guy at this point. He is not steph curry coming out of college..he's clearly a guy with a funky (slow release) in a more competitive and faster league, that needs his shots monitored to make sure he is playing to his strengths.

Shooting over 5 threes a night, which he has done in 10 of his first 18 games in the NBA (and has come really close to shooting over 5 in others) is clearly not playing to his strengths..and Luke walton should know this by now...simply by looking at his college numbers and his struggles thus far in games.

At this point, Lonzo is trying to prove that he can be a volume 3 point shooter, but since when has that ever been his game? The problem is, Lonzo has had a harder time finishing in the paint in the NBA, so he has settled for more 3 pointers in NBA games than he ever did in college in many games this year. However, a good coach should tell him to resist that temptation and take a dribble in (even when ur wide open) take the higher percentage shot or take it to the basket. His threes should be limited.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 12:53 pm    Post subject:

fusuyballer wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Shooters don't need high volume to prove they can shoot.

Steve Kerr wasn't a high volume shooter. Neither is Kyle Korver. I could keep going.


The main/darn near only reason steve kerr and kyle krover are/were on nba rosters is because they can shoot the h3ll out of the ball. All it takes is one look at their form and the ball going through the net and everyone knows they can shoot. Just like most great shooters. It doesnt take long to figure out who can shoot and who is okay, avg, etc.

So, i agree with you that shooters dont need high volumes to prove they can shoot. However, my point is, that Lonzo Ball (being that his shooting form) has always been an issue since high school, his college shooting numbers are probably a litte mis-leading...simply because college defense isn't as good as the nba and he limited his shooting to about 10 attempts a game. (4 of them being in the paint, where finishing was a lot easier in college for him) If Lonzo Ball was taking 15-20 shots per game in college and shot 55 and 41% from 3, i would be first person to say, yeah, keep shooting..he's clearly someone who has a history of volume shooting, forget his funky mechanics, he's a great shooter, but that's not the case.

He's clearly not that guy at this point. He is not steph curry coming out of college..he's clearly a guy with a funky (slow release) in a more competitive and faster league, that needs his shots monitored to make sure he is playing to his strengths.

Shooting over 5 threes a night, which he has done in 10 of his first 18 games in the NBA (and has come really close to shooting over 5 in others) is clearly not playing to his strengths..and Luke walton should know this by now...simply by looking at his college numbers and his struggles thus far in games.

At this point, Lonzo is trying to prove that he can be a volume 3 point shooter, but since when has that ever been his game? The problem is, Lonzo has had a harder time finishing in the paint in the NBA, so he has settled for more 3 pointers in NBA games than he ever did in college in many games this year. However, a good coach should tell him to resist that temptation and take a dribble in (even when ur wide open) take the higher percentage shot or take it to the basket. His threes should be limited.



Everything Ball is going through now was brought up in his pre-draft scouting reports. He had trouble getting to the rim in college. In college he took advantage of slower, less talented players and shot up quick 3s in transition; everyone questioned whether he'd be able to get away with this in the pros.

Whether he can become even an adequate pro shooter is anyone's guess. I am surprised by anyone who didn't think this could be an issue, or didn't think this might take years to correct if it is correctable. The guy has spent most of his life being coached by his father, who created situations that catered to Lonzo's strengths and did him no favors
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:21 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
The guy has spent most of his life being coached by his father, who created situations that catered to Lonzo's strengths and did him no favors

By all accounts I've heard it's the opposite; Lavar would put Lonzo on the weakest teams so he'd have to do more to win.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:28 pm    Post subject:

levon wrote:
activeverb wrote:
The guy has spent most of his life being coached by his father, who created situations that catered to Lonzo's strengths and did him no favors

By all accounts I've heard it's the opposite; Lavar would put Lonzo on the weakest teams so he'd have to do more to win.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:40 pm    Post subject:

no
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 2:06 pm    Post subject:

fusuyballer wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Shooters don't need high volume to prove they can shoot.

Steve Kerr wasn't a high volume shooter. Neither is Kyle Korver. I could keep going.


The main/darn near only reason steve kerr and kyle krover are/were on nba rosters is because they can shoot the h3ll out of the ball. All it takes is one look at their form and the ball going through the net and everyone knows they can shoot. Just like most great shooters. It doesnt take long to figure out who can shoot and who is okay, avg, etc.

So, i agree with you that shooters dont need high volumes to prove they can shoot. However, my point is, that Lonzo Ball (being that his shooting form) has always been an issue since high school, his college shooting numbers are probably a litte mis-leading...simply because college defense isn't as good as the nba and he limited his shooting to about 10 attempts a game. (4 of them being in the paint, where finishing was a lot easier in college for him) If Lonzo Ball was taking 15-20 shots per game in college and shot 55 and 41% from 3, i would be first person to say, yeah, keep shooting..he's clearly someone who has a history of volume shooting, forget his funky mechanics, he's a great shooter, but that's not the case.

He's clearly not that guy at this point. He is not steph curry coming out of college..he's clearly a guy with a funky (slow release) in a more competitive and faster league, that needs his shots monitored to make sure he is playing to his strengths.

Shooting over 5 threes a night, which he has done in 10 of his first 18 games in the NBA (and has come really close to shooting over 5 in others) is clearly not playing to his strengths..and Luke walton should know this by now...simply by looking at his college numbers and his struggles thus far in games.

At this point, Lonzo is trying to prove that he can be a volume 3 point shooter, but since when has that ever been his game? The problem is, Lonzo has had a harder time finishing in the paint in the NBA, so he has settled for more 3 pointers in NBA games than he ever did in college in many games this year. However, a good coach should tell him to resist that temptation and take a dribble in (even when ur wide open) take the higher percentage shot or take it to the basket. His threes should be limited.


5 attempts in roughly 36mpg is legit volume at the NCAA level.

Nevermind that he shot 34% from NBA distance during his UCLA tenure, higher than the rest of the lottery picks, with more volume.

The NBA doesn't respect him. So what? They don't respect DSJ, Fox, Ntilikina, and other PGs either. Other than Fox, Ntilikina and DSJ were solid to VERY legit from 3-point range.

The rest of the league should back off. Why? They're rookies. Even the deadliest NCAA shooter last year, Malik Monk, is just a few ticks above 30%.

NONE of these guys are perfectly adjusted to NBA speed, athleticism, and timing yet. When they are, that shot comes around.

NOT worried.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 2:09 pm    Post subject:

levon wrote:
activeverb wrote:
The guy has spent most of his life being coached by his father, who created situations that catered to Lonzo's strengths and did him no favors

By all accounts I've heard it's the opposite; Lavar would put Lonzo on the weakest teams so he'd have to do more to win.


I think it's to Zo's advantage that he didn't even run any plays. He HAD to know the tendencies/timing and work on instinct to push pace and execute. Otherwise, the offense would sink. Forced feel.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 2:22 pm    Post subject:

levon wrote:
activeverb wrote:
The guy has spent most of his life being coached by his father, who created situations that catered to Lonzo's strengths and did him no favors

By all accounts I've heard it's the opposite; Lavar would put Lonzo on the weakest teams so he'd have to do more to win.


I was talking about his self indulgence and how his coaching (like his personality) is all about the spotlight
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 5:27 am    Post subject:

Send him to the G league for Alex Caruso and Vander Blue. He needs a Puig vacation and wake up call. What elite NBA player hasn't shredded him? It's time the team develops him rather then burning him out. A solid PG averaging 25-30 points could win a great deal of games with Kuzma/Lopez/Ingram backbone.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 6:33 am    Post subject:

Jellojigglin wrote:
Send him to the G league for Alex Caruso and Vander Blue. He needs a Puig vacation and wake up call. What elite NBA player hasn't shredded him?


By my count:

Lonzo was evenly matched or outplayed opponent in 9 of the 19 games. Dominated his opponent in 2.
Lonzo was outplayed by opponent in 10 of the 19 games, badly outplayed in 3.

Opponents shot 33% or worse vs. Lonzo: 8 times (Beverly, Wall, Lowry, Russell, Irving, Bledsoe, Ulis, Murray)... Dunn was close at 5-14.
Opponents shot over 50% while scoring at least 10 points vs. Lonzo: 5 times (only once in the past 9 games)
Opponents scored 20-29 points vs. Lonzo: 4 times (Bledsoe, Rubio, Conley, Wall), none in the past 7 games
Opponents scored 30+ points vs. Lonzo: 1 time (Lillard), 11 games ago

In the past 7 games only 2 players have scored more than 13 points against Lonzo, Simmons had 18 and Ulis had 15. Only Ben Simmons (8-13) has shot 50% or better against Lonzo in the past 9 games.

Where is all this shredding happening? Noone has shot 50% against him in 9 games, and nobody has topped 18 points in 9 games. Meanwhile over 42% of his opponents have shot 33% or worse, with another just barely above it. That opinion isn't grounded in reality.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 8:03 am    Post subject:

fusuyballer wrote:
Rivershow wrote:
It is what is right now. There isn't much changing it at this point. Gotta wait till the next offseason and more to change his shot.


Actually, they don't have to wait. Lonzo is missing wide open shots constantly. Someone helping him shoot better isn't going to mess up his 30% shooting percentage.

Imagine next game Lonzo comes out with a clean up and down shot and starts to knock down shots. What's the worse that could happen? His new shooting form doesn't work and he goes back to his old?

If I was Lonzo, I would be open to anyone that could help me get better. Theres no reason Lonzo has to shoot that way other than developing a bad habit at a young age. It's holding his game back.

Change it.


You don’t play basketball do you?
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 8:37 am    Post subject:

J.C. Smith wrote:
Jellojigglin wrote:
Send him to the G league for Alex Caruso and Vander Blue. He needs a Puig vacation and wake up call. What elite NBA player hasn't shredded him?


By my count:

Lonzo was evenly matched or outplayed opponent in 9 of the 19 games. Dominated his opponent in 2.
Lonzo was outplayed by opponent in 10 of the 19 games, badly outplayed in 3.

Opponents shot 33% or worse vs. Lonzo: 8 times (Beverly, Wall, Lowry, Russell, Irving, Bledsoe, Ulis, Murray)... Dunn was close at 5-14.
Opponents shot over 50% while scoring at least 10 points vs. Lonzo: 5 times (only once in the past 9 games)
Opponents scored 20-29 points vs. Lonzo: 4 times (Bledsoe, Rubio, Conley, Wall), none in the past 7 games
Opponents scored 30+ points vs. Lonzo: 1 time (Lillard), 11 games ago

In the past 7 games only 2 players have scored more than 13 points against Lonzo, Simmons had 18 and Ulis had 15. Only Ben Simmons (8-13) has shot 50% or better against Lonzo in the past 9 games.

Where is all this shredding happening? Noone has shot 50% against him in 9 games, and nobody has topped 18 points in 9 games. Meanwhile over 42% of his opponents have shot 33% or worse, with another just barely above it. That opinion isn't grounded in reality.


Ball's defense has been solid. His woes have been on the offensive end.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 8:43 am    Post subject:

J.C. Smith wrote:
Jellojigglin wrote:
Send him to the G league for Alex Caruso and Vander Blue. He needs a Puig vacation and wake up call. What elite NBA player hasn't shredded him?


By my count:

Lonzo was evenly matched or outplayed opponent in 9 of the 19 games. Dominated his opponent in 2.
Lonzo was outplayed by opponent in 10 of the 19 games, badly outplayed in 3.

Opponents shot 33% or worse vs. Lonzo: 8 times (Beverly, Wall, Lowry, Russell, Irving, Bledsoe, Ulis, Murray)... Dunn was close at 5-14.
Opponents shot over 50% while scoring at least 10 points vs. Lonzo: 5 times (only once in the past 9 games)
Opponents scored 20-29 points vs. Lonzo: 4 times (Bledsoe, Rubio, Conley, Wall), none in the past 7 games
Opponents scored 30+ points vs. Lonzo: 1 time (Lillard), 11 games ago

In the past 7 games only 2 players have scored more than 13 points against Lonzo, Simmons had 18 and Ulis had 15. Only Ben Simmons (8-13) has shot 50% or better against Lonzo in the past 9 games.

Where is all this shredding happening? Noone has shot 50% against him in 9 games, and nobody has topped 18 points in 9 games. Meanwhile over 42% of his opponents have shot 33% or worse, with another just barely above it. That opinion isn't grounded in reality.


His defense at the toughest position in the league to defend has been sensational.

Really, really good....he is getting a lot of missed shots out of his defensive assignments and not getting "shredded" regularly at all in my view.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:23 am    Post subject:

When Magic says he would consider tinkering with Lonzo's shot at the end of the season, I think that means; they will...

This is not the time to make adjustments, IMO.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 11:06 am    Post subject:

deal wrote:
When Magic says he would consider tinkering with Lonzo's shot at the end of the season, I think that means; they will...

This is not the time to make adjustments, IMO.


So shooting 31% fg and 25% from 3pt is working for you? You rather he tinkers with his shot when he starts playing with (crosses fingers) Superstars next year? How frustrated do you think, i.e. Lebron would be when Zo airballs those wide open shots because they waited a year to tinker with it?
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 1:33 pm    Post subject:

deal wrote:
When Magic says he would consider tinkering with Lonzo's shot at the end of the season, I think that means; they will...

This is not the time to make adjustments, IMO.


I think his entire game needs adjustment. He has lots of bad habits that allow the better defenders in the NBA, with better scouting, to feast on him. He has flawed mechanics and predictable tendencies, with are a deadly combination.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 3:04 pm    Post subject:

LakerLand247 wrote:
deal wrote:
When Magic says he would consider tinkering with Lonzo's shot at the end of the season, I think that means; they will...

This is not the time to make adjustments, IMO.


So shooting 31% fg and 25% from 3pt is working for you? You rather he tinkers with his shot when he starts playing with (crosses fingers) Superstars next year? How frustrated do you think, i.e. Lebron would be when Zo airballs those wide open shots because they waited a year to tinker with it?



I've said this a bunch of times but here goes again. Lonzo is just another rookie for me; he's to passive, terrible shot, he's dfinately not a Lebron type, etc. etc.

Eventually he could be a good player but right now he's really just so-so but the starting PG, like it or not. Tinkering now, as Magic himself said, will not happen. So, fight it if you wish but IMO it will be when Magic sad it'll be.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 3:06 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
deal wrote:
When Magic says he would consider tinkering with Lonzo's shot at the end of the season, I think that means; they will...

This is not the time to make adjustments, IMO.


I think his entire game needs adjustment. He has lots of bad habits that allow the better defenders in the NBA, with better scouting, to feast on him. He has flawed mechanics and predictable tendencies, with are a deadly combination.



Lots of folk here would challenge your opinion. I myself, am still n the fence with this kid. Time, as they say, will be the judge.
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