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defense Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jan 2010 Posts: 39544
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Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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The Juggernaut wrote: | defense wrote: | Randle RPM .41____BPM -1.0__PER 17.2
Kuzma RPM -2.64__BPM -1.5__PER 15.7
Nance. RPM .48____BPM 2.4__PER 18.0
The worst PF on the team leads in everything, even the stats that favor stat stuffers/scorers. These stats must be useless...
Also, Monta Ellis and Davis Lee who played for the warriors used to put up big numbers and lose a whole lot, think about it. I'm not saying Larry is better than Randle or Kuzma, but I am saying you guys really need to stop using him as cop out. He has more than earned his 24 minutes a game. Direct your irrational comments somewhere else. I hear Luke has room.
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Our best lineup according to the advanced stats is with Randle and Kuz in the front court with BI, Ball, and KCP. |
Then your complaint should probably be directed towards the coaching staff. I'll repeat myself. Nance is more than holding his own in the starting line up. Match ups, minutes and substitution patterns are a coaching issue. People come in here acting like Nance is somehow holding the team back. He is not the problem. |
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defense Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jan 2010 Posts: 39544
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Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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Nash Vegas wrote: | The Juggernaut wrote: | defense wrote: | Randle RPM .41____BPM -1.0__PER 17.2
Kuzma RPM -2.64__BPM -1.5__PER 15.7
Nance. RPM .48____BPM 2.4__PER 18.0
The worst PF on the team leads in everything, even the stats that favor stat stuffers/scorers. These stats must be useless...
Also, Monta Ellis and Davis Lee who played for the warriors used to put up big numbers and lose a whole lot, think about it. I'm not saying Larry is better than Randle or Kuzma, but I am saying you guys really need to stop using him as cop out. He has more than earned his 24 minutes a game. Direct your irrational comments somewhere else. I hear Luke has room.
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Our best lineup according to the advanced stats is with Randle and Kuz in the front court with BI, Ball, and KCP. |
Yup.
Only stat fans care about:
Lakes record with Kuzma starting: 5-6
Lakes record with Nance starting: 3-9
All these BPM, RPM, DRP, PMS, whatever, all these numbers mean NOTHING if Lakers are just LOSING.
Apparently something is still wrong on the other side of these stats. Nance may have higher blah-blah-A stat over Randle/Kuzma, but he has other blah-blah-B stat that is much lower than theirs which is why it hasn't translated to winning. |
So disregarding SoS/match ups/home vs road, you think Kuzma/Randle starting vs not starting is the reason for that record difference? |
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Clark Kent Star Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2007 Posts: 2001
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Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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Larry Nance starting over Kyle Kuzma is reminiscent of the 2009 Lakers where Luke Walton originally started over Trevor Ariza.
Eventually, Luke realized that Ariza was a better fit with the starters and openly gave his spot up. _________________ The butter is getting hard. |
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RI Laker Star Player
Joined: 27 Jun 2005 Posts: 7158
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Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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Its a nice problem to have finding minutes. Some rag on LNJ, but he was our best player for the first half of last game. |
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epak Retired Number
Joined: 30 Aug 2005 Posts: 34147
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Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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Clark Kent wrote: | Larry Nance starting over Kyle Kuzma is reminiscent of the 2009 Lakers where Luke Walton originally started over Trevor Ariza.
Eventually, Luke realized that Ariza was a better fit with the starters and openly gave his spot up. |
Except that was a championship team with vets.
This team is not that. It's more about learning imo.
But I definitely like this comparison over the crazy Brady/Bledsoe comparison. |
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The Juggernaut Star Player
Joined: 24 Aug 2017 Posts: 4572
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Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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defense wrote: | The Juggernaut wrote: | defense wrote: | Randle RPM .41____BPM -1.0__PER 17.2
Kuzma RPM -2.64__BPM -1.5__PER 15.7
Nance. RPM .48____BPM 2.4__PER 18.0
The worst PF on the team leads in everything, even the stats that favor stat stuffers/scorers. These stats must be useless...
Also, Monta Ellis and Davis Lee who played for the warriors used to put up big numbers and lose a whole lot, think about it. I'm not saying Larry is better than Randle or Kuzma, but I am saying you guys really need to stop using him as cop out. He has more than earned his 24 minutes a game. Direct your irrational comments somewhere else. I hear Luke has room.
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Our best lineup according to the advanced stats is with Randle and Kuz in the front court with BI, Ball, and KCP. |
Then your complaint should probably be directed towards the coaching staff. I'll repeat myself. Nance is more than holding his own in the starting line up. Match ups, minutes and substitution patterns are a coaching issue. People come in here acting like Nance is somehow holding the team back. He is not the problem. |
My complaint IS with the coaching staff not Larry. I like Larry. He's a damn good role player but shouldnt be the starter and he shouldn't be played with lineups that lack spacing/scoring threats. |
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greenfrog Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jan 2011 Posts: 36081 Location: 502 Bad Gateway
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Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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The Juggernaut wrote: | My complaint IS with the coaching staff not Larry. I like Larry. He's a damn good role player but shouldnt be the starter and he shouldn't be played with lineups that lack spacing/scoring threats. |
You just described the entire rotation by modern standards.
I like that we finally seem to be running some lob plays for him.
I think another aspect of him starting is that he's almost like another coach on the floor directing players where they need to go. Lonzo's just not vocal enough, and Ingram just wants to iso. |
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J.C. Smith Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 12676
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Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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The Lakers certainly had an easier schedule when Nance was out, only playing a couple of good teams during that stretch. To somewhat counter that though the Lakers were at home for most of Nance's games, but more importantly I don't think anyone would argue that Larry isn't a solid role player on the team and not having him as opposed to having him also has to be considered as it meant we saw lineups with Brewer and Ingram at power forward or Bogut at center. There's no easy way to weigh all of that.
I don't think the Lakers recent struggles can all be attributed to Nance coming back. But I also don't think he should be getting more minutes than Kuzma or Randle.
I would warn about advanced stats that they often have weird results. That doesn't mean that they shouldn't be taken into account. They all paint a certain picture based on how the calculation is done and so long as you take that into account they are useful. But to give an example, here's some of those advanced stats for the Lakers three power forwards and notice how vastly different they all are:
Basketball Reference
VORP (Value over Replacement Player):
Nance: 0.3
Kuzma: 0.1
Randle: 0.1
BPM: (Box Score Plus Minus)
Nance: +2.4
Randle: -1
Kuzma: -1.5
Defensive BPM:
Nance: +3
Randle: +1
Kuzma: -1.7
Offensive BPM:
Kuzma: +0.3
Nance: -0.6
Randle: -2
Win Shares:
Kuzma: +1.5
Nance: +1.3
Randle: +1
Win Shares/48:
Nance: 0.17
Randle: 0.12
Kuzma: 0.107
Offensive Win Shares:
Kuzma: 0.9
Nance: 0.5
Randle: 0.5
Defensive Win Shares:
Randle: 0.8
Kuzma: 0.6
Nance: 0.6
That is very slanted towards Nance and very much at odds with the stats on other sites.
82Games.com
Production:
Randle: +3.3
Kuzma: +0.5
Nance: -1.1
On Court:
Randle: +1
Kuzma: +0.5
Nance: -9.7
Net Rating:
Randle: +8.3
Kuzma: -2.8
Nance: -8.3
Simple Rating:
Randle: +5
Kuzma: -0.6
Nance: -3.5
Per Differential/48:
Randle (C): +4.6
Kuzma (PF): +2
Nance (PF): +0.4
Randle (PF): +0.3
Nance (C): -5
On/Off Net/100 Possessions:
Randle: +9
Kuzma: -0.8
Nance: -8
Win Percentage:
Randle (C): 60%
Randle (PF): 55%
Kuzma (PF): 52%
Nance (PF): 41%
Nance (C): 12%
That very much favors Randle, with Larry being the worst of the bunch.
NBA.Com:
PIE:
Randle: 12.8
Nance: 11.7
Kuzma: 11.5
Offensive Rating (points/100 poss):
Randle: 102.2
Kuzma: 101.7
Nance: 94.6
Defensive Rating (Lower is better, points allowed/100 poss):
Randle: 101.4
Nance:103.5
Kuzma: 105.8
Net Rating (points gained/100 poss):
Randle: +0.8
Kuzma: -4
Nance: -8.9
+/-:
Randle: +0.5
Kuzma: -2.9
Nance: -4.8
That also very much favors Randle, with Larry being the worst of the bunch.
ESPN:
PER:
Nance: 18.01
Randle: 17.21
Kuzma: 15.67
Value Added:
Randle: 43
Kuzma: 42.3
Nance: 28.3
Estimated Wins Added:
Kuzma: 1.4
Randle: 1.4
Nance: 0.9
RPM:
Nance: 0.48
Randle: 0.41
Kuzma: -2.64
Offensive RPM:
Kuzma: -0.04
Randle: -0.75
Nance: -1.18
Defensive RPM:
Nance: 1.66
Randle: 1.16
Kuzma: -2.6
That is the most mixed bag with each guy excelling in certain areas.
My point here is that each of those stats is calculated in different ways that may favor one player or the other. You need to take the calculation into account and then figure out why the stats favor one player over another. But it's a typical issue with advanced stats. |
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socalsp3 Star Player
Joined: 07 Jul 2016 Posts: 3502
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Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:36 pm Post subject: |
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So the argument for not starting Kuzma is that you can lose even worse? |
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Nash Vegas Star Player
Joined: 01 Sep 2012 Posts: 7239
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Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:48 am Post subject: |
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GoldenThroat wrote: | Overall
Lonzo + Clarkson + Blue + Kuzma + Randle................+40.2 (10 minutes)
Lonzo + KCP + Ingram + Randle + Lopez....................+32.7 (12 minutes)
Lonzo + Clarkson + Brewer + Kuzma + Randle............+31.6 (13 minutes)
Lonzo + KCP + Ingram + Kuzma + Randle..................+28.6 (52 minutes)
Lonzo + Brewer + Ingram + Nance + Lopez................+22.3 (24 minutes)
Lonzo + KCP + Clarkson + Ingram + Randle................+18.0 (24 minutes)
Lonzo + KCP + Hart + Kuzma + Randle........................+0.2 (18 minutes)
Lonzo + KCP + Ingram + Kuzma + Lopez......................-2.8 (217 minutes)
Lonzo + Brewer + Ingram + Kuzma + Lopez..................-8.9 (10 minutes)
Lonzo + KCP + Ingram + Nance + Lopez.......................-9.7 (155 minutes)
Lonzo + KCP + Ingram + Nance + Bogut.....................-11.5 (11 minutes)
Lonzo + KCP + Ingram + Nance + Randle....................-19.8 (10 minutes)
Lonzo + Deng + Ingram + Nance + Lopez....................-26.8 (13 minutes)
Lonzo + KCP + Clarkson + Kuzma + Randle..................-28.6 (16 minutes)
Lonzo + KCP + Ingram + Kuzma + Nance.....................-93.8 (12 minutes) |
God, look at the discrepancy between Luke's dream line-up in red, and what common LG fans are saying in the blue or even purple.
Luke loves seeing red negatives for sure for playing Ingram/Nance/Lopez all those minutes at a net loss of -9.7 smh.
RIP _________________ |
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The Juggernaut Star Player
Joined: 24 Aug 2017 Posts: 4572
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Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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Nash Vegas wrote: | GoldenThroat wrote: | Overall
Lonzo + Clarkson + Blue + Kuzma + Randle................+40.2 (10 minutes)
Lonzo + KCP + Ingram + Randle + Lopez....................+32.7 (12 minutes)
Lonzo + Clarkson + Brewer + Kuzma + Randle............+31.6 (13 minutes)
Lonzo + KCP + Ingram + Kuzma + Randle..................+28.6 (52 minutes)
Lonzo + Brewer + Ingram + Nance + Lopez................+22.3 (24 minutes)
Lonzo + KCP + Clarkson + Ingram + Randle................+18.0 (24 minutes)
Lonzo + KCP + Hart + Kuzma + Randle........................+0.2 (18 minutes)
Lonzo + KCP + Ingram + Kuzma + Lopez......................-2.8 (217 minutes)
Lonzo + Brewer + Ingram + Kuzma + Lopez..................-8.9 (10 minutes)
Lonzo + KCP + Ingram + Nance + Lopez.......................-9.7 (155 minutes)
Lonzo + KCP + Ingram + Nance + Bogut.....................-11.5 (11 minutes)
Lonzo + KCP + Ingram + Nance + Randle....................-19.8 (10 minutes)
Lonzo + Deng + Ingram + Nance + Lopez....................-26.8 (13 minutes)
Lonzo + KCP + Clarkson + Kuzma + Randle..................-28.6 (16 minutes)
Lonzo + KCP + Ingram + Kuzma + Nance.....................-93.8 (12 minutes) |
God, look at the discrepancy between Luke's dream line-up in red, and what common LG fans are saying in the blue or even purple.
Luke loves seeing red negatives for sure for playing Ingram/Nance/Lopez all those minutes at a net loss of -9.7 smh.
RIP |
This one is also one that Luke SHOULD be running more just to see if it's as legit as it has seemed so far:
Lonzo + KCP + Ingram + Randle + Lopez....................+32.7 (12 minutes)
Only 12 (bleep) minutes for this lineup. Unbelievable |
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GoldenThroat Moderator
Joined: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 37474
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Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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Here's the Net Rating for Nance's 2-Man Lineups
Nance + Caruso...+150.0 (1 minute)
Nance + Ennis......+74.3 (7 minutes)
Nance.+ Clarkson..+11.8 (49 minutes)
Nance + Bogut.......+9.6 (23 minutes)
Nance + Hart.........+5.1 (17 minutes)
Nance + Brewer......+2.2 (33 minutes)
Nance + Lopez........-5.2 (220 minutes)
Nance + Ingram......-9.6 (269 minutes)
Nance + Ball..........-11.1 (264 minutes)
Nance + KCP..........-14.1 (220 minutes)
Nance + Deng........-26.8 (13 minutes)
Nance + Randle......-30.7 (17 minutes)
Nance + Kuzma......-40.5 (31 minutes)
Last edited by GoldenThroat on Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:13 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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defense Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jan 2010 Posts: 39544
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Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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GoldenThroat wrote: | Here's the Net Rating for Nance's 2-Man Lineups
Nance + Caruso...+150.0 (1 minute)
Nance + Ennis......+74.3 (7 minutes)
Nance.+ Nance.....+11.1 (49 minutes)
Nance + Bogut.......+9.6 (23 minutes)
Nance + Hart.........+5.1 (17 minutes)
Nance + Brewer......+2.2 (33 minutes)
Nance + Lopez........-5.2 (220 minutes)
Nance + Ingram......-9.6 (269 minutes)
Nance + Ball..........-11.1 (264 minutes)
Nance + KCP..........-14.1 (220 minutes)
Nance + Deng........-26.8 (13 minutes)
Nance + Randle......-30.7 (17 minutes)
Nance + Kuzma......-40.5 (31 minutes) |
dat Nance/Nance duo is legit! |
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PHILosophize Franchise Player
Joined: 05 Nov 2012 Posts: 10758
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Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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lol _________________ one dog goes that way the other dog goes the other way |
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anpherknee Franchise Player
Joined: 14 Mar 2014 Posts: 16933
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Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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defense wrote: | GoldenThroat wrote: | Here's the Net Rating for Nance's 2-Man Lineups
Nance + Caruso...+150.0 (1 minute)
Nance + Ennis......+74.3 (7 minutes)
Nance.+ Nance.....+11.1 (49 minutes)
Nance + Bogut.......+9.6 (23 minutes)
Nance + Hart.........+5.1 (17 minutes)
Nance + Brewer......+2.2 (33 minutes)
Nance + Lopez........-5.2 (220 minutes)
Nance + Ingram......-9.6 (269 minutes)
Nance + Ball..........-11.1 (264 minutes)
Nance + KCP..........-14.1 (220 minutes)
Nance + Deng........-26.8 (13 minutes)
Nance + Randle......-30.7 (17 minutes)
Nance + Kuzma......-40.5 (31 minutes) |
dat Nance/Nance duo is legit! |
obvs sposed to be the nance/lance lineup
GT get it together fam smh |
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GoldenThroat Moderator
Joined: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 37474
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Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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Wasn't even the right number either. That was +11.8 for Nance + Clarkson.
I can't be trusted. |
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J.C. Smith Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 12676
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Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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I thought Nance was great tonight. Non-stop hustle on the offensive boards. |
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epak Retired Number
Joined: 30 Aug 2005 Posts: 34147
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Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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J.C. Smith wrote: | I thought Nance was great tonight. Non-stop hustle on the offensive boards. |
Love the activity.
One thing though, please don't post up. |
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tox Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Nov 2015 Posts: 17880
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Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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GoldenThroat wrote: | Here's the Net Rating for Nance's 2-Man Lineups
Nance + Caruso...+150.0 (1 minute)
Nance + Ennis......+74.3 (7 minutes)
Nance.+ Clarkson..+11.8 (49 minutes)
Nance + Bogut.......+9.6 (23 minutes)
Nance + Hart.........+5.1 (17 minutes)
Nance + Brewer......+2.2 (33 minutes)
Nance + Lopez........-5.2 (220 minutes)
Nance + Ingram......-9.6 (269 minutes)
Nance + Ball..........-11.1 (264 minutes)
Nance + KCP..........-14.1 (220 minutes)
Nance + Deng........-26.8 (13 minutes)
Nance + Randle......-30.7 (17 minutes)
Nance + Kuzma......-40.5 (31 minutes) |
Nance/Kuz lol
Also, another year, another instance of the Nance/Randle pairing being a disaster |
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greenfrog Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jan 2011 Posts: 36081 Location: 502 Bad Gateway
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Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:14 am Post subject: |
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epak wrote: | J.C. Smith wrote: | I thought Nance was great tonight. Non-stop hustle on the offensive boards. |
Love the activity.
One thing though, please don't post up. |
They're posting him up to pass (a'la Draymond). He's been doing well with it. Lack of shooters, though. |
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Joe Pesci Star Player
Joined: 15 Oct 2017 Posts: 3885
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Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:25 am Post subject: |
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Why is Nance bad at Center? |
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Omar Little Moderator
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90307 Location: Formerly Known As 24
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Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:37 am Post subject: |
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Joe Pesci wrote: | Why is Nance bad at Center? |
He doesn't match up well physically (and just doesn't seem to have the altitude) but he doesn't have the range or ability to offset that. So he cant guard you, but he doesnt make you pay by guarding him. _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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anpherknee Franchise Player
Joined: 14 Mar 2014 Posts: 16933
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Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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We gotta start a gofundme to bail larry outta jail guise |
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Super Mega Team Star Player
Joined: 25 Jul 2008 Posts: 3877
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Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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How about that poster though?
Lol twitter
twitter : They're actually cancelling Kobe's jersey retirement ceremony and having a funeral for Kevin Durant. |
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GOODRICH25 Star Player
Joined: 17 Jun 2017 Posts: 3366
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Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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(bleep), he put KD on a poster so big, it dwarfs Lebrons "Witnesses" one |
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