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calistrtballr Star Player
Joined: 24 Jun 2005 Posts: 6352 Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:53 am Post subject: |
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Preference is get p george no matter what, but if 2 max fails...Just resign randle, dump clarkson, bring back matt thomas |
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Four Decade Bandwagon Star Player
Joined: 18 Jul 2014 Posts: 8156
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Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:54 am Post subject: |
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governator wrote: | If you gonna lose young talents (Russell, Randle, JC)... it's 2 max of busts |
Kind of the crux of the entire discussion. Maybe the 2 max plan is not the "best" option for this team at this time.
I tend to believe there was more to the DLO trade then simply clearing cap space. So I do not lump him in as simply step one.
IMO there was more to it that concerned behind the scenes attitude and personality issues that we do not give enough credence to. New regime lacked faith in him long term. That makes more sense to me as to why he was the one chosen to be moved almost immediately. |
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AFireInside619 Franchise Player
Joined: 11 Dec 2015 Posts: 11447
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Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:55 am Post subject: |
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Randle, Clarkson, and now Nance is on the move too? Magic must be sure he has at least one guy coming, although I disagree and feel like it's going to be a big fat zero. Nance is the real head scratcher here though, so maybe we are waiting on a January 15th trade with the Bulls. |
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governator Retired Number
Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 25092
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Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:57 am Post subject: |
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Four Decade Bandwagon wrote: | governator wrote: | If you gonna lose young talents (Russell, Randle, JC)... it's 2 max of busts |
Kind of the crux of the entire discussion. Maybe the 2 max plan is not the "best" option for this team at this time.
I tend to believe there was more to the DLO trade then simply clearing cap space. So I do not lump him in as simply step one.
IMO there was more to it that concerned behind the scenes attitude and personality issues that we do not give enough credence to. New regime lacked faith in him long term. That makes more sense to me as to why he was the one chosen to be moved almost immediately. |
It has to be one massive negative personality to trade a young 'all-star trajectory' 21 year old for a cap space that we might not even use for a max (we've tolerated plenty of head scratcher in the past, all the way to Dennis Rodman)... so I hope you are correct |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:04 am Post subject: |
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Four Decade Bandwagon wrote: | governator wrote: | If you gonna lose young talents (Russell, Randle, JC)... it's 2 max of busts |
Kind of the crux of the entire discussion. Maybe the 2 max plan is not the "best" option for this team at this time.
I tend to believe there was more to the DLO trade then simply clearing cap space. So I do not lump him in as simply step one.
IMO there was more to it that concerned behind the scenes attitude and personality issues that we do not give enough credence to. New regime lacked faith in him long term. That makes more sense to me as to why he was the one chosen to be moved almost immediately. |
The assumption for purposes of this thread is that we get 0 max players. What then is the ultimate question that I'm trying to get opinions on. I feel strongly it's 2 max or 0 max. So why not discuss the 0 max roadmap in the event it may happen?
Lakers would still somewhat corner the market with a lot of cap space, so we could get some quality vet FAs if we missed out on max FAs. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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Four Decade Bandwagon Star Player
Joined: 18 Jul 2014 Posts: 8156
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Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:07 am Post subject: |
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yinoma2001 wrote: | Quote: |
Edit- Just saw the speculated Capela/Barton/ Jack additions |
I don't think Houston will let Capela go. He is instrumental to their success.
I'm opposed to a 4 year deal for Barton. The key IMO is flexibility. Rather overpay on 1+1 or 2+1 deals than go a full 4 years. |
See your point. Maybe not a full four years but I would like to see at leat a couple years to FAs instead of yearly turnover. Create some stability for the very young core expected to be the main players moving forward.
One year rentals like KCP just creates too chaos.
At this point, you may be overly specific with the Barton signing. I'would look at that as an example of what is possible. For example. Would you give 4 years to any of Noel, Bradley, I. Thomas, Hezonja, Len, Favors, Hood, A. Gordan, Smart, McCaw?
Maybe some, others not? Depends on the role and fit IMO. Too early to lock into one player, one plan. Including the 2 max. I agree with your flexibility comment.
Part of why I am frustrated with the FO boast and intentions for the 2 max plan. They put all your cards on the table for a all-in move before seeing all the cards. |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:10 am Post subject: |
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McCaw is an interesting target. I would look at high luxury tax paying teams who cannot keep RFA players.
I had a list somewhere of non-max FAs that I would consider on 1+1/2+1 deals, but flexibility is the key.
Maybe trade for Mirotic who is on a cost controlled deal. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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governator Retired Number
Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 25092
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Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:13 am Post subject: |
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yinoma2001 wrote: | Four Decade Bandwagon wrote: | governator wrote: | If you gonna lose young talents (Russell, Randle, JC)... it's 2 max of busts |
Kind of the crux of the entire discussion. Maybe the 2 max plan is not the "best" option for this team at this time.
I tend to believe there was more to the DLO trade then simply clearing cap space. So I do not lump him in as simply step one.
IMO there was more to it that concerned behind the scenes attitude and personality issues that we do not give enough credence to. New regime lacked faith in him long term. That makes more sense to me as to why he was the one chosen to be moved almost immediately. |
The assumption for purposes of this thread is that we get 0 max players. What then is the ultimate question that I'm trying to get opinions on. I feel strongly it's 2 max or 0 max. So why not discuss the 0 max roadmap in the event it may happen?
Lakers would still somewhat corner the market with a lot of cap space, so we could get some quality vet FAs if we missed out on max FAs. |
0 max... i don't see the FO punting so I'd go with Randle, Noel and Avery Bradley, let KCP/Brook go. Keep Deng as an expiring for another move in 2019 |
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AFireInside619 Franchise Player
Joined: 11 Dec 2015 Posts: 11447
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Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:15 am Post subject: |
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governator wrote: | Four Decade Bandwagon wrote: | governator wrote: | If you gonna lose young talents (Russell, Randle, JC)... it's 2 max of busts |
Kind of the crux of the entire discussion. Maybe the 2 max plan is not the "best" option for this team at this time.
I tend to believe there was more to the DLO trade then simply clearing cap space. So I do not lump him in as simply step one.
IMO there was more to it that concerned behind the scenes attitude and personality issues that we do not give enough credence to. New regime lacked faith in him long term. That makes more sense to me as to why he was the one chosen to be moved almost immediately. |
It has to be one massive negative personality to trade a young 'all-star trajectory' 21 year old for a cap space that we might not even use for a max (we've tolerated plenty of head scratcher in the past, all the way to Dennis Rodman)... so I hope you are correct |
Not sure if DLO would have stayed with us passed his rookie contract to tell you the truth. We have Ingram, Ball, and Kuzma. Two of those guys will get Max Rookie extensions and one will be disappointed. If we kept DLO, that would have been another player who feels they didn't get what they deserve. And the fact that he hasn't played since the first few games doesn't concern you? Also name a team that has kept all their high draft picks, strolled into the NBA Finals and won it all? I can't speak on DLO's personality though. Not sure how he is with coaches and teammates, even with all the negative reports, I'll have to give him a pass on that one. |
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governator Retired Number
Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 25092
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Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:20 am Post subject: |
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AFireInside619 wrote: | governator wrote: | Four Decade Bandwagon wrote: | governator wrote: | If you gonna lose young talents (Russell, Randle, JC)... it's 2 max of busts |
Kind of the crux of the entire discussion. Maybe the 2 max plan is not the "best" option for this team at this time.
I tend to believe there was more to the DLO trade then simply clearing cap space. So I do not lump him in as simply step one.
IMO there was more to it that concerned behind the scenes attitude and personality issues that we do not give enough credence to. New regime lacked faith in him long term. That makes more sense to me as to why he was the one chosen to be moved almost immediately. |
It has to be one massive negative personality to trade a young 'all-star trajectory' 21 year old for a cap space that we might not even use for a max (we've tolerated plenty of head scratcher in the past, all the way to Dennis Rodman)... so I hope you are correct |
Not sure if DLO would have stayed with us passed his rookie contract to tell you the truth. We have Ingram, Ball, and Kuzma. Two of those guys will get Max Rookie extensions and one will be disappointed. If we kept DLO, that would have been another player who feels they didn't get what they deserve. And the fact that he hasn't played since the first few games doesn't concern you? Also name a team that has kept all their high draft picks, strolled into the NBA Finals and won it all? I can't speak on DLO's personality though. Not sure how he is with coaches and teammates, even with all the negative reports, I'll have to give him a pass on that one. |
I didn't forsee DLo's injury, you're right about that but I don't think you should trade away a young talent because he might command a max in the future (3 yrs away)... a max commanding player is a good player to have, FO job is to get a fair market deal. So back to Yinoma's 0 max scenario... keep our youngs and add more youngs (Bradley and Noel) then shed Deng next summer |
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venturalakersfan Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144464 Location: The Gold Coast
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Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:22 am Post subject: |
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AFireInside619 wrote: | governator wrote: | Four Decade Bandwagon wrote: | governator wrote: | If you gonna lose young talents (Russell, Randle, JC)... it's 2 max of busts |
Kind of the crux of the entire discussion. Maybe the 2 max plan is not the "best" option for this team at this time.
I tend to believe there was more to the DLO trade then simply clearing cap space. So I do not lump him in as simply step one.
IMO there was more to it that concerned behind the scenes attitude and personality issues that we do not give enough credence to. New regime lacked faith in him long term. That makes more sense to me as to why he was the one chosen to be moved almost immediately. |
It has to be one massive negative personality to trade a young 'all-star trajectory' 21 year old for a cap space that we might not even use for a max (we've tolerated plenty of head scratcher in the past, all the way to Dennis Rodman)... so I hope you are correct |
Also name a team that has kept all their high draft picks, strolled into the NBA Finals and won it all? |
Today’s gold standard, Golden State Warriors. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:35 am Post subject: |
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AFireInside619 wrote: | governator wrote: | Four Decade Bandwagon wrote: | governator wrote: | If you gonna lose young talents (Russell, Randle, JC)... it's 2 max of busts |
Kind of the crux of the entire discussion. Maybe the 2 max plan is not the "best" option for this team at this time.
I tend to believe there was more to the DLO trade then simply clearing cap space. So I do not lump him in as simply step one.
IMO there was more to it that concerned behind the scenes attitude and personality issues that we do not give enough credence to. New regime lacked faith in him long term. That makes more sense to me as to why he was the one chosen to be moved almost immediately. |
It has to be one massive negative personality to trade a young 'all-star trajectory' 21 year old for a cap space that we might not even use for a max (we've tolerated plenty of head scratcher in the past, all the way to Dennis Rodman)... so I hope you are correct |
Not sure if DLO would have stayed with us passed his rookie contract to tell you the truth. We have Ingram, Ball, and Kuzma. Two of those guys will get Max Rookie extensions and one will be disappointed. If we kept DLO, that would have been another player who feels they didn't get what they deserve. And the fact that he hasn't played since the first few games doesn't concern you? Also name a team that has kept all their high draft picks, strolled into the NBA Finals and won it all? I can't speak on DLO's personality though. Not sure how he is with coaches and teammates, even with all the negative reports, I'll have to give him a pass on that one. |
He's fine. He's set to return soon and he will excel on the Nets who have a better coaching staff/system. We got major salary cap relief and Brook so it's not like we were left empty handed like the 76ers did with Okafor. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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Four Decade Bandwagon Star Player
Joined: 18 Jul 2014 Posts: 8156
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Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:36 am Post subject: |
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To the spirit of the thread. IMO there are multiple options that are non-2 max.
I prefer the Lakers explore them instead of going all-in with the 2 max.
As a fan for purely entertainment, I like the current players. I want to see more of them as they continue to develop. I watch games with a bit of patience because I see potential and what could be. Even when they make mistakes, play poorly or lose.
Using the cap space to add a few more puzzle pieces "potentially" could do wonders to this roster. Not likely going to compete instantly like a 2 max reorganization but IMO a longer run. Either is a risk. |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:37 am Post subject: |
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KCP is a def "no thanks" for me. He's ok on defense, but don't like his offense at all.
Brook, maybe for the room exception and not more.
Jules will be the first major test (if he's even around for the summer). _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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Robster8989 Star Player
Joined: 30 Dec 2014 Posts: 1025 Location: San Diego
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Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:38 am Post subject: |
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Great idea for a new and fresh thread.
It seems that the FO may know something we don't (hopefully, right?).
They seem to feel that Clarkson and Randle are not proper fits, and with the 25 mil minimum in space they'll consume, they want to move on.
Assuming that as a starting point:
1.Randle for Noel and the Mav's early 2nd rounder
2. Clarkson, Zub and Mav's 2nd to Min for Aldrich, Baz and the OKC first.
Go into the draft with a full slate of pics (OKC 1st and Den 2nd), and reevaluate the FA market. By draft day, we'll have a better idea on if the LBJ/PG dream is possible.
If it looks good, trade Deng with the OKC first and our 2019 1st (which can be moved as soon as our 2018 conveys on draft day) and we'd have over 80 mil in cap. Enough for LBJ, PG, resign Noel and add role players (and we still have the core of Zo, BI, KK, Hart, Nance etc).
If the LBJ/PG dream looks dead, keep Deng and the picks and add value priced assets. and draft pics. Of course, if there is a good trade to be made, we know have assets.
I personally would evaluate Noel and see if he is reasonable on contract demands and if he is a good fit for our young core, (remember, the Rich Paul angle is dead if LBJ stays in Cleveland or goes elsewhere) or possible go after a part time rim protector like Dedmon in the 8-10 range.
Bradley would be another asset I'd look at, if his price was right (12-15).
Signing a rim protector (Dedmon or Noel) and Bradley at the right price would still allow for a max in 2019 (Butler, Klay and possibly LBJ again), as Deng would be easy to move at that point.
I also certainly be open to absorbing contracts for draft pics, and we'd likely still have cap to do that. _________________ "Rangers lead the way!"
West Point '88
UCLA '92
75th Ranger Regiment '88-'04
Last edited by Robster8989 on Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:39 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Bard207 Star Player
Joined: 08 Jan 2013 Posts: 7713
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Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:38 am Post subject: |
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If the goal is to try for at least one Max in 2019, then they have to watch how they spend in summer 2018.
They have KCP as a short term rental/placeholder and some on LG feel that he tends to look out for his own stats rather than buying into the team concept. It is understandable because being on a rental contract means that the organization/team hasn't bought into him as being part of their future.
If they do decide to control spending in summer 2018 so they can go for at least one Max in 2019, then whatever cachet/prestige Magic & Pelinka had left as difference makers in the FO will be diminished even more.
* They don't have the backgrounds to be Morey and Hinkie technocrat types
* They aren't trying to follow the culture & player development model that Marks and Atkinson have implemented in Brooklyn
* They never interned underneath a wheeler dealer such as Ainge. So they could struggle following that path and expectations suggest the clock won't allow them enough time to complete the journey even if they could figure out how to do it.
Getting back to the topic...
The FO will probably chose short term rentals/placeholders which continues to cause problems with lack of continuity and the difficulty of getting those players to buyin to a team first mindset.
If the FO does change course from the stated path of signing Max players to one of the others described above, then the hirings of Magic & Pelinka could be considered close to a failure. I don't think Jeanie & Magic are close to admitting that they have chosen a strategy that has failed. |
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2019 Franchise Player
Joined: 03 Dec 2014 Posts: 10809
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Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:40 am Post subject: |
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governator wrote: | If you gonna lose young talents (Russell, Randle, JC)... it's 2 max of busts |
Yeah.. after trading Russell, it has to be 2 max guys. If not, what a colossal failure.
But assuming shh hits the fan, I'd punt cap space with quality one year signings. I realize the risk in that (chemistry/effort wise) but I think you have to. |
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activeverb Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006 Posts: 37470
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Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:49 am Post subject: |
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venturalakersfan wrote: | AFireInside619 wrote: | governator wrote: | Four Decade Bandwagon wrote: | governator wrote: | If you gonna lose young talents (Russell, Randle, JC)... it's 2 max of busts |
Kind of the crux of the entire discussion. Maybe the 2 max plan is not the "best" option for this team at this time.
I tend to believe there was more to the DLO trade then simply clearing cap space. So I do not lump him in as simply step one.
IMO there was more to it that concerned behind the scenes attitude and personality issues that we do not give enough credence to. New regime lacked faith in him long term. That makes more sense to me as to why he was the one chosen to be moved almost immediately. |
It has to be one massive negative personality to trade a young 'all-star trajectory' 21 year old for a cap space that we might not even use for a max (we've tolerated plenty of head scratcher in the past, all the way to Dennis Rodman)... so I hope you are correct |
Also name a team that has kept all their high draft picks, strolled into the NBA Finals and won it all? |
Today’s gold standard, Golden State Warriors. |
They did let Harrison Barnes go in order to sign Durant.
Ekpe Udoh, who believe it or not was a #6 pick, was allowed to stroll.
And they traded Biedrins, an #11th pick, to get Iguodala.
They have kept Curry and Thompson. Green is around but he wasn't a high draft pick.
But there have been other teams that also made the finals where the main guys were drafted -- the Spurs come to mind. But plenty of ring teams have traded away high draft picks (the Cavs) and lots of teams get into the finals with no recent top draft picks at all.
There isn't a one-size fits all strategy. I am a little wary when people invoke the Warriors because they had an unusual advantage -- the huge one-time jump in cap space that allowed them to get Durant. Without that, it's anyone's guess where they would be now.
Last edited by activeverb on Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:51 am; edited 1 time in total |
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RI Laker Star Player
Joined: 27 Jun 2005 Posts: 7156
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Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:49 am Post subject: |
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As much as I would like to keep him, I think the FO has to move JR. I would hope that they have talked and came to an agreement and that things are not as bad as they look from the outside. I think this is wishful thinking. I do not think the FO wants to be a position where they either are forced to match a ridiculous contract or lose him for nothing. Everything else can be done in the offseason, but JR is the elephant in the room. |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:52 am Post subject: |
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If we miss out on max FAs this summer, I would dismiss any 2 max in 2019 plans. It would at best, be a 1 max in 2019 deal. I would use cap space to sign a few players on reasonable, longer term (but not 4 year deals unless it's a steal) deals so that we present to a 2019 FA:
1. nice young developing core, cost-controlled (Lonzo/BI/Kuz/Hart/Nance/Bryant).
2. some veterans who are on reasonable deals, and boost the win totals of the team and add stability.
Right now, we have an unproven young core and a bunch of rental vets. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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Four Decade Bandwagon Star Player
Joined: 18 Jul 2014 Posts: 8156
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Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:53 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | If the FO does change course from the stated path of signing Max players to one of the others described above, then the hirings of Magic & Pelinka could be considered close to a failure. I don't think Jeanie & Magic are close to admitting that they have chosen a strategy that has failed. |
This has been my biggest concern since the day Magic was hired....ego.
Being so committed to a specific plan that they are unable to deviate from it. They have painted themselves so far into a corner can they make reasonable decisions if it looks to be falling apart? Can they walk away from the table if a agent or GM demands too much? Can he face the media with a different plan?
Magic is an accomplished businessman. Respect him for all that he has done. But when it comes to the Lakers and his legacy as a GM will it be his weak spot? We have no idea how he will react when the brass ring is just out of his grasp. More like the Knick's I. Thomas or like the Rocket's Morey? We are about to find out. |
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cal1piggy Star Player
Joined: 19 Jul 2017 Posts: 2584
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Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:53 am Post subject: |
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Interesting thread.
If we cannot get 2 Max or 1 Max, I would go young but follow the Nets model with 2 year contracts like Deng - e.g. Knicks/Noah, Suns/Knight, Brazmore/Hawks.
This would mean trading Randle but keeping Clarkson (2 years remaining).
This would allow Ball/BI/Kuz/Hart to grow.
Taking on the bad contracts with draft picks would allow Ball/BI/Kuz/Hart to grow and see what happens to the young centers.
Hopefully, we continue to hit on the draft with our own picks and the picks from the trades.
By end of 2019 season, all the bad contracts are done though we would have BI's RFA season to deal with? |
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waterman40 Star Player
Joined: 17 Jun 2003 Posts: 6287 Location: Central Coast
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Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:55 am Post subject: |
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I think the 2-max plan is pie in the sky, the most likely scenario is just PG13 coming here and us building around him.
We let KCP and Lopez go. Center rotation is either Randle or Noel and then Zubac and Bryant as the backups.
Re-sign Randle to be our small ball center at 4 years $15 million per. Either that or trade Randle to Mavs. for Noel this year, and see if he will work out to re-sign to a similar deal we would have offered Randle.
Trade Clarkson for a 2019 first round pick.
McCaw might be another interesting free agent idea. _________________ LAKERS 2019-2020: NBA World Champions! |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:55 am Post subject: |
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I just hope if we miss out on 2 max FAs, the Lakers FINALLY abandon this 2 max plan futility. Pursue 1 max, stock the team with capable players who fill out the team.
Of course, I'm also cautiously optimistic that we can nail the 2 max FA, but that's neither here nor there. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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FreakofNature Star Player
Joined: 28 Sep 2007 Posts: 9187 Location: Maui ...
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Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:56 am Post subject: |
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yinoma2001 wrote: | McCaw is an interesting target. I would look at high luxury tax paying teams who cannot keep RFA players.
I had a list somewhere of non-max FAs that I would consider on 1+1/2+1 deals, but flexibility is the key.
Maybe trade for Mirotic who is on a cost controlled deal. |
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