Cleveland Indians removing Chief Wahoo logo from jerseys, caps in 2019
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DaMuleRules
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:02 pm    Post subject:

Conker wrote:
Change the Minnesota Vikings logo as well. I find it offensive.


While it may be historically true that Vikings didn't wear horn-clad helmets, it's hardly the same thing as a depicting them as an embarrassing caricature.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:18 pm    Post subject:

Conker wrote:
Change the Minnesota Vikings logo as well. I find it offensive.


Fighting Irish too please.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:25 pm    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
Conker wrote:
Change the Minnesota Vikings logo as well. I find it offensive.


Fighting Irish too please.


That one's much closer to the problem than a simple graphic of a horn.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:28 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
Conker wrote:
Change the Minnesota Vikings logo as well. I find it offensive.


Fighting Irish too please.


That one's much closer to the problem than a simple graphic of a horn.


Ok but intersectionality does not allow for Fighting Irish to be changed.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 5:37 am    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
My suggestion would be, keep Chief Wahoo, lose the grin, give him a warrior look.


Illinois Univ had a stoic depiction, but that got dustpanned too about 10 years ago. Now their logo is a big "I". Couldn't get more boring. NCAA is a different beast, though. Marquette changed Golden Warriors to Golden Eagles. There were more blatant names like Savages that got changed, but even Warriors is iffy in the NCAA.

http://publish.illinois.edu/digitalillinois/files/2014/12/Illinois_Fighting_Illini2.jpg
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:21 pm    Post subject:

non-player zealot wrote:
jodeke wrote:
My suggestion would be, keep Chief Wahoo, lose the grin, give him a warrior look.


Illinois Univ had a stoic depiction, but that got dustpanned too about 10 years ago. Now their logo is a big "I". Couldn't get more boring. NCAA is a different beast, though. Marquette changed Golden Warriors to Golden Eagles. There were more blatant names like Savages that got changed, but even Warriors is iffy in the NCAA.

http://publish.illinois.edu/digitalillinois/files/2014/12/Illinois_Fighting_Illini2.jpg


I amend the "warrior look" to; Replace the face with one of dignity, showing the real pride of Native Americans.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:59 pm    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
[quote=

I amend the "warrior look" to; Replace the face with one of dignity, showing the real pride of Native Americans.



meh... I dunno. At the end of the day it's still an archaic "Indian" caricature for a team name that never should have been made in the first place, no matter what the patronizing expression look is.

The only real solution is to completely get rid of the "Indians" team name and do a clean reboot. I mean, they're not even real 'Indians' from India or anything. Thanks Columbus.
Leave that logo and history in the past where it belongs, get a new name, win some games and move forward. Many other franchises have done it yet for some reason Cleveland still wants to hold on. Get over it and start anew. my 2 cents.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 3:59 pm    Post subject:

ChickenBeckerman wrote:
jodeke wrote:
[quote=

I amend the "warrior look" to; Replace the face with one of dignity, showing the real pride of Native Americans.



meh... I dunno. At the end of the day it's still an archaic "Indian" caricature for a team name that never should never have been made in the first place, no matter what the patronizing expression look is.

The only real solution is to completely get rid of the "Indians" team name and do a clean reboot. I mean, they're not even real 'Indians' from India or anything. Thanks Columbus.
Leave that logo and history in the past where it belongs and move forward. my 2 cents.


The protest was centered on the degrading optics of the logo not the use of a Native American.

I believe NA would be proud to have their image as a logo for a sports team. NA are America in the beginning. They're a part of American History.

I suggest if the team uses NA as the logo show a dignified image. e.g. Sitting Bull

I disagree with the bold. If critiquing the past enhances the future, why not?

How would Caucasian Americans feel if THIS was a team logo?
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 4:02 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
Conker wrote:
Change the Minnesota Vikings logo as well. I find it offensive.


Fighting Irish too please.


That one's much closer to the problem than a simple graphic of a horn.



Okay I'm curious what is offensive about "Fighting Irish?"

I heard Max Kellerman talk about how ND should change their mascot etc but I never knew what would be considered offensive about it.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 4:08 pm    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
ChickenBeckerman wrote:
jodeke wrote:
[quote=

I amend the "warrior look" to; Replace the face with one of dignity, showing the real pride of Native Americans.



meh... I dunno. At the end of the day it's still an archaic "Indian" caricature for a team name that never should never have been made in the first place, no matter what the patronizing expression look is.

The only real solution is to completely get rid of the "Indians" team name and do a clean reboot. I mean, they're not even real 'Indians' from India or anything. Thanks Columbus.
Leave that logo and history in the past where it belongs and move forward. my 2 cents.


The protest was centered on the degrading optics of the logo not the use of a Native American.

I believe NA would be proud to have their image as a logo for a sports team. NA are America in the beginning. They're a part of American History.

I suggest if the team uses NA as the logo show a dignified image. e.g. Sitting Bull

I disagree with the bold. If critiquing the past enhances the future, why not?

How would Caucasian Americans feel if THIS was a team logo?


Whatever the protest started out as, yall are missing the point. Why do you still associate Native American's with the word INDIANS??? Dignified image while calling them Indians are you serious??? As if they're supposed to feel good about being patronized? smh

End that ishhh already geez.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 4:38 pm    Post subject:

ChickenBeckerman wrote:
jodeke wrote:
ChickenBeckerman wrote:
jodeke wrote:
[quote=

I amend the "warrior look" to; Replace the face with one of dignity, showing the real pride of Native Americans.



meh... I dunno. At the end of the day it's still an archaic "Indian" caricature for a team name that never should never have been made in the first place, no matter what the patronizing expression look is.

The only real solution is to completely get rid of the "Indians" team name and do a clean reboot. I mean, they're not even real 'Indians' from India or anything. Thanks Columbus.
Leave that logo and history in the past where it belongs and move forward. my 2 cents.


The protest was centered on the degrading optics of the logo not the use of a Native American.

I believe NA would be proud to have their image as a logo for a sports team. NA are America in the beginning. They're a part of American History.

I suggest if the team uses NA as the logo show a dignified image. e.g. Sitting Bull

I disagree with the bold. If critiquing the past enhances the future, why not?

How would Caucasian Americans feel if THIS was a team logo?


Whatever the protest started out as, yall are missing the point. Why do you still associate Native American's with the word INDIANS??? Dignified image while calling them Indians are you serious??? As if they're supposed to feel good about being patronized? smh

End that ishhh already geez.


Point of reference not defining. Using Indian is universal, something others can identify with.

If you noticed I use the term Native American to define the group. If you're looking for a definite I'd say I'd call a Navajo a Navajo American, Sioux a Sioux American, identify by tribe.

Patronize or dignify? Indian is not a derogatory term like, redskin, squaw, as examples.

It's about the degrading optic depiction not the use of Indian. You're moving the goal posts.
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Last edited by jodeke on Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:36 pm    Post subject:

Basketball Fan wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
Conker wrote:
Change the Minnesota Vikings logo as well. I find it offensive.


Fighting Irish too please.


That one's much closer to the problem than a simple graphic of a horn.



Okay I'm curious what is offensive about "Fighting Irish?"

I heard Max Kellerman talk about how ND should change their mascot etc but I never knew what would be considered offensive about it.


I don't find it offensive myself - just a bit silly and outdated.

My point was at least that one depicts a stereotype in human form. The Vikings logo is simply a graphic of an object.

As to why some might find it offensive, I guess they feel it depicts a less than flattering stereotype of Irish people as little leprechauns who love to fight.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 7:01 pm    Post subject:

ChickenBeckerman wrote:
jodeke wrote:
[quote=

I amend the "warrior look" to; Replace the face with one of dignity, showing the real pride of Native Americans.



meh... I dunno. At the end of the day it's still an archaic "Indian" caricature for a team name that never should have been made in the first place, no matter what the patronizing expression look is.

The only real solution is to completely get rid of the "Indians" team name and do a clean reboot. I mean, they're not even real 'Indians' from India or anything. Thanks Columbus.
Leave that logo and history in the past where it belongs, get a new name, win some games and move forward. Many other franchises have done it yet for some reason Cleveland still wants to hold on. Get over it and start anew. my 2 cents.


How bout the depiction on the old buffalo nickel? Design of the face was a composite of 3 actual Native chiefs who sat for the designer. US currently has a gold bullion coin in the design of the buffalo nickel. Is that offensive considering that there's a stoic look to the face and the visage was created from (willing) living subjects? Isn't this different from a Chief Wahoo caricature?

https://www.apmex.com/product/152637/2018-1-oz-gold-buffalo-bu
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:12 am    Post subject:

[quote="jodeke"]
ChickenBeckerman wrote:
jodeke wrote:
ChickenBeckerman wrote:
jodeke wrote:
[quote=

I amend the "warrior look" to; Replace the face with one of dignity, showing the real pride of Native Americans.



meh... I dunno. At the end of the day it's still an archaic "Indian" caricature for a team name that never should never have been made in the first place, no matter what the patronizing expression look is.

The only real solution is to completely get rid of the "Indians" team name and do a clean reboot. I mean, they're not even real 'Indians' from India or anything. Thanks Columbus.
Leave that logo and history in the past where it belongs and move forward. my 2 cents.


The protest was centered on the degrading optics of the logo not the use of a Native American.

I believe NA would be proud to have their image as a logo for a sports team. NA are America in the beginning. They're a part of American History.

I suggest if the team uses NA as the logo show a dignified image. e.g. Sitting Bull

I disagree with the bold. If critiquing the past enhances the future, why not?

How would Caucasian Americans feel if THIS was a team logo?


Whatever the protest started out as, yall are missing the point. Why do you still associate Native American's with the word INDIANS??? Dignified image while calling them Indians are you serious??? As if they're supposed to feel good about being patronized? smh

End that ishhh already geez.


Quote:
Point of reference not defining. Using Indian is universal, something others can identify with.


Others, meaning the people not being depicted? Why don't you ask the actual Natives what they think of the name being used for a non-native sports team.

Quote:

If you noticed I use the term Native American to define the group. If you're looking for a definite I'd say I'd call a Navajo a Navajo American, Sioux a Sioux American, identify by tribe.


It's pretty simple. Are you Okay or Not for a sports team to use the word INDIAN to describe Native Americans considering that the actual Native Americans are against it. Are you for it, Yes or No?

Quote:
Patronize or dignify? Indian is not a derogatory term like, redskin, squaw, as examples.


If you were really sincere about dignifying them, you would actually pay attention to what they were asking for which is to end the use of the name and picture entirely.

I got native friends and neighbors and trust me, they'd roll their eyes at your idea and have seen it all that placating bs before over and over and have heard it all. Then it's a matter of how nice they'll ask you to gtfo. No one asked you to dignify them for them, what they have actually asked for is the removal of the name and logo plain & simple, not some half assed appeal to their dignity, give me a break.

Quote:

It's about the degrading optic depiction not the use of Indian. You're moving the goal posts.


about 115 Native American activists groups have published resolution policies and organized petitions to remove the name "Indians" and other Native American names and/or symbols by non-native sports teams. This has been going on since the 70's. Are they moving the goal posts?


Last edited by ChickenBeckerman on Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:36 am; edited 3 times in total
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:17 am    Post subject:

non-player zealot wrote:
ChickenBeckerman wrote:
jodeke wrote:
[quote=

I amend the "warrior look" to; Replace the face with one of dignity, showing the real pride of Native Americans.



meh... I dunno. At the end of the day it's still an archaic "Indian" caricature for a team name that never should have been made in the first place, no matter what the patronizing expression look is.

The only real solution is to completely get rid of the "Indians" team name and do a clean reboot. I mean, they're not even real 'Indians' from India or anything. Thanks Columbus.
Leave that logo and history in the past where it belongs, get a new name, win some games and move forward. Many other franchises have done it yet for some reason Cleveland still wants to hold on. Get over it and start anew. my 2 cents.


How bout the depiction on the old buffalo nickel? Design of the face was a composite of 3 actual Native chiefs who sat for the designer. US currently has a gold bullion coin in the design of the buffalo nickel. Is that offensive considering that there's a stoic look to the face and the visage was created from (willing) living subjects? Isn't this different from a Chief Wahoo caricature?

https://www.apmex.com/product/152637/2018-1-oz-gold-buffalo-bu



Looks cool to me.

but if things were different, and the coin was made without the blessing of the chiefs and native groups were asking for it's removal or something I'd respect their wishes.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 2:17 pm    Post subject:

@ChickenBeckerman

Quote:
Others, meaning the people not being depicted? Why don't you ask the actual Natives what they think of the name being used for a non-native sports team
.

Yes

This thread is concerning a clownish caricature of a Indian Chief not the name of non-native sports. The only name I know of that's offense and being protested against is the Washington Redskins.

Quote:

It's pretty simple. Are you Okay or Not for a sports team to use the word INDIAN to describe Native Americans considering that the actual Native Americans are against it. Are you for it, Yes or No?


I'm not againt the use of the word Indian. I didn't know Indian was considered offensive to NA. If you have proof it is please share it with me.

Quote:
If you were really sincere about dignifying them, you would actually pay attention to what they were asking for which is to end the use of the name and picture entirely.

I got native friends and neighbors and trust me, they'd roll their eyes at your idea and have seen it all that placating bs before over and over and have heard it all. Then it's a matter of how nice they'll ask you to gtfo. No one asked you to dignify them for them, what they have actually asked for is the removal of the name and logo plain & simple, not some half assed appeal to their dignity, give me a break.



I am sincere about dignifying them. I didn't know they were asking to end the use of Indian, I knew about the logo. Please verify their displeasure with Indian. I'd like to read their reasons.

Quote:
about 115 Native American activists groups have published resolution policies and organized petitions to remove the name "Indians" and other Native American names and/or symbols by non-native sports teams. This has been going on since the 70's. Are they moving the goal posts?


This is news to me. I'd like to read some of what the 115 NA groups have published. Please share.

EDIT: NVM I found it in wiki. It's news to me. It caused me to rethink my position. Thanks for the heads up.

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