If we have a perfect offseason, are we contenders? A detailed analysis of why our offense and defensive sets could dethrone the Warriors
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If we have a perfect offseason are we contenders?
Yes
73%
 73%  [ 30 ]
No
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Not next year but maybe in 2+ years
26%
 26%  [ 11 ]
Total Votes : 41

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bfc1125roy
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:58 pm    Post subject: If we have a perfect offseason, are we contenders? A detailed analysis of why our offense and defensive sets could dethrone the Warriors

This topic came up from the free agency thread, but I think it's worthy of it's own detailed discussion. If we have a perfect offseason and manage to sign LeBron and George, while keeping Randle, are we contenders with the following roster?

PG: Ball/Not Ennis

SG: George/Hart

SF: Ingram/?

PF: LBJ/Kuzma

C: ?/Randle

I think this team could beat the Warriors. There's a lot of versatility there and we could switch pretty much any screen. If Ingram focuses more on defense, we have our 2 elite defenders. Plus a scoring punch off the bench with Kuzma and Randle. That bench could run and gun hard. Luke wouldn't be an appropriate coach for a team of that caliber though. I'd want Fizdale. Here's my reasoning...

You take the 2011 Mavs, or the 2004 Pistons. Neither of those teams were better on paper than the teams they faced in the finals. But they played a smart defensive system.

No team will likely ever again be able to have the offensive firepower the Warriors have. But the way to stop them is to slow down the pace, and play tough, physical defense. Limiting the # of possessions and controlling the glass. Every championship team in the last 20 years has had 2 elite defenders (Iggy/Green, Duncan/Leonard, Kobe/Artest, MJ/Pippen) etc. It's an absolute requirement. George can be one, and hopefully Ingram develops into a second given he won't have to carry the offensive load.


1. You have to understand how the Warriors run their offense. It's very screen and cutting heavy, especially with the split actions. In order to combat that, you need to be able to switch everything. We've actually been able to keep up the Warriors this year because of our switch heavy defense. LBJ and PG can both guard 1-5. Lonzo and Ingram are both long and can also switch a lot without giving up mismatches. That is key.

2. On offense, we need something better than Walton's chest series. But you have two amazing facilitators in LBJ and Lonzo (critical to beat a zone). You have a top off ball player in PG. Three guys who can score in ISO (George, Ingram, LBJ). That's enough versatility there to run all sorts of actions. I particularly like our ability to create a triangle in the low post, enter the ball into James and have Lonzo and George run a split cut. Gives us the option to have James post up or an easy pass into a layup. Or to have George come up to the pinch post. We can also run great plays such as the loop and elevator plays to free up George/Ingram for catch and shoots. Not to mention PnR when we need it.

3. Our Bench with Randle and Kuzma would be great. That's a high octane offense with a good scoring punch. Both of them are fairly versatile as well, and could give GSW's older bench players like Iggy some hell.

4. The only thing that could hold us back is 3 point shooting. For that Lonzo and Ingram will have to step up their game (or at least 1 of them). If they do, we'll be fine.

I understand LeBron won't want to play with young talent, but if Ingram and Ball develop fast in the offseason, we could see some great results.

I'm not worried about LeBron's age. By the way LeBron is playing right now, if we surround him with the right role players, he can remain an effective facilitator and post threat into his later 30s. His genetics seem to rival Shaqs, but unlike him he takes better care of his body.

It is a pipedream though...
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PHILosophize
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:06 pm    Post subject:

a perfect offseason would be to land PG, Kawhi AND LeBron

at that point, yep we are contenders
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:09 pm    Post subject:

PHILosophize wrote:
a perfect offseason would be to land PG, Kawhi AND LeBron

at that point, yep we are contenders


Leonard is not a FA. And there's no way the Spurs will trade him.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:11 pm    Post subject:

well you said perfect offseason
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:12 pm    Post subject:

PHILosophize wrote:
well you said perfect offseason



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:25 pm    Post subject:

Contenders or Champions?

I am not as optimistic that all the dominoes fall into place as many think. If they do then sure they can compete in June.

Much will depend on how the roster actually looks when the season starts. Not sure he will be as patient to mentor as described. Also depends on how they fill those question marks on the depth chart.

Also not as optimistic Father Time is as generous to James as described. How much he declines physically and coasts mentally into retirement is still to be determined. Its coming just a matter of when.

Credit to the FO for creating the possibilities. Perhaps all the pieces fall into place as flawlessly as you describe. Iím skeptical and need to see it
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:25 pm    Post subject:

Perfect offseason doesnít include lebron
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:27 pm    Post subject:

Four Decade Bandwagon wrote:
Contenders or Champions?

I am not as optimistic that all the dominoes fall into place as many think. If they do then sure they can compete in June.

Much will depend on how the roster actually looks when the season starts. Not sure he will be as patient to mentor as described. Also depends on how they fill those question marks on the depth chart.

Also not as optimistic Father Time is as generous to James as described. How much he declines physically and coasts mentally into retirement is still to be determined. Its coming just a matter of when.

Credit to the FO for creating the possibilities. Perhaps all the pieces fall into place as flawlessly as you describe. Iím skeptical and need to see it


I say we can move LBJ to the post ala MJ in the second 3 peat. He has the size to remain effective there. See the split cut play I posted.

Also we can sign a defensive center easily. Then it just depends on our backup PG and SF, which we can handle without a problem.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:27 pm    Post subject:

DangeRuss wrote:
Perfect offseason doesnít include lebron


Then what does it include?
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:28 pm    Post subject:

It is how you define perfect off season.
I would think the goal right now is to make the playoffs period.

And if the Lakers sign PG or one max, keep Lopez, Randle, and maybe IT or KCP, the way the Lakers are playing now they should be good for the playoffs.
And that is a BIG jump from being the second worse team in the league. This year is a big jump from last year.

The team doesn't have to do it all in one year. It may take many years with players learning to play with each other and the young core developing.
But next year the playoffs is possible. A BIG step from last year
and must be done.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:29 pm    Post subject:

bfc1125roy wrote:
DangeRuss wrote:
Perfect offseason doesnít include lebron


Then what does it include?


George and keeping options open for next year in hopes of getting Leonard or klay
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:29 pm    Post subject:

laker50 wrote:
It is how you define perfect off season.
I would think the goal right now is to make the playoffs period.

And if the Lakers sign PG or one max, keep Lopez, Randle, and maybe IT or KCP, the way the Lakers are playing now they should be good for the playoffs.
And that is a BIG jump from being the second worse team in the league. This year is a big jump from last year.

The team doesn't have to do it all in one year. It may take many years with players learning to play with each other and the young core developing.
But next year the playoffs is possible. A BIG step from last year
and must be done.


Perfect offseason = Sign PG + LBJ and keep Randle by stretching and extending Deng.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:30 pm    Post subject:

DangeRuss wrote:
bfc1125roy wrote:
DangeRuss wrote:
Perfect offseason doesnít include lebron


Then what does it include?


George and keeping options open for next year in hopes of getting Leonard or klay


Why not just sign George + LBJ. There's no uncertainty of "maybe" getting Leonard or Thompson.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:32 pm    Post subject:

motion to change the title of this thread to 'if we have a less-than-perfect-but-still-decent offseason'

do I have a second?
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:34 pm    Post subject:

bfc1125roy wrote:
DangeRuss wrote:
bfc1125roy wrote:
DangeRuss wrote:
Perfect offseason doesnít include lebron


Then what does it include?


George and keeping options open for next year in hopes of getting Leonard or klay


Why not just sign George + LBJ. There's no uncertainty of "maybe" getting Leonard or Thompson.


2 reasons 1. LBJ is getting older, and 2. most people hate him, and screw LeBron's choice in coaches. so bye Fizdale


Last edited by fontana3d on Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:34 pm    Post subject:

PHILosophize wrote:
motion to change the title of this thread to 'if we have a less-than-perfect-but-still-decent offseason'

do I have a second?


I wouldn't call signing George + LBJ and keeping Randle "Decent"
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:35 pm    Post subject:

fontana3d wrote:
bfc1125roy wrote:
DangeRuss wrote:
bfc1125roy wrote:
DangeRuss wrote:
Perfect offseason doesnít include lebron


Then what does it include?


George and keeping options open for next year in hopes of getting Leonard or klay


Why not just sign George + LBJ. There's no uncertainty of "maybe" getting Leonard or Thompson.


2 reasons 1. LBJ is getting older, and 2. most people hate him.


2nd reason isn't valid. I addressed the first by citing how we could move him to the low post and run triangle split cuts from the original version. Allows him to score closer to the basket + facilitate out of the post, which he is excellent at.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:36 pm    Post subject:

motion to append the motion from changing the thread title to 'if we have a less-than-perfect-but-still-decent offseason' to instead changing the thread title to 'if we have a less-than-perfect-but-still-very-decent offseason'

do I have a second?
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:37 pm    Post subject:

Motion to ban PHILosophize for being annoying.

Do I have a second?
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:39 pm    Post subject:

bfc1125roy wrote:
fontana3d wrote:
bfc1125roy wrote:
DangeRuss wrote:
bfc1125roy wrote:
DangeRuss wrote:
Perfect offseason doesnít include lebron


Then what does it include?


George and keeping options open for next year in hopes of getting Leonard or klay


Why not just sign George + LBJ. There's no uncertainty of "maybe" getting Leonard or Thompson.


2 reasons 1. LBJ is getting older, and 2. most people hate him.


2nd reason isn't valid. I addressed the first by citing how we could move him to the low post and run triangle split cuts from the original version. Allows him to score closer to the basket + facilitate out of the post, which he is excellent at.


So I still don't have to like LeBron, and also screw Fizdale too because LeBron doesn't run the team.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:40 pm    Post subject:

fontana3d wrote:
bfc1125roy wrote:
fontana3d wrote:
bfc1125roy wrote:
DangeRuss wrote:
bfc1125roy wrote:
DangeRuss wrote:
Perfect offseason doesnít include lebron


Then what does it include?


George and keeping options open for next year in hopes of getting Leonard or klay


Why not just sign George + LBJ. There's no uncertainty of "maybe" getting Leonard or Thompson.


2 reasons 1. LBJ is getting older, and 2. most people hate him.


2nd reason isn't valid. I addressed the first by citing how we could move him to the low post and run triangle split cuts from the original version. Allows him to score closer to the basket + facilitate out of the post, which he is excellent at.


So I still don't have to like LeBron, and also screw Fizdale too because LeBron doesn't run the team.


Well who would you suggest? We can't hire Blatt for obvious reasons. Maybe steal Messina away from the Spurs?

If Walton would just copy the Warriors plays we'd be so much better. The main thing he's taken is an outdated dribble weave play which sucks.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:44 pm    Post subject:

bfc1125roy wrote:
fontana3d wrote:
bfc1125roy wrote:
fontana3d wrote:
bfc1125roy wrote:
DangeRuss wrote:
bfc1125roy wrote:
DangeRuss wrote:
Perfect offseason doesnít include lebron


Then what does it include?


George and keeping options open for next year in hopes of getting Leonard or klay


Why not just sign George + LBJ. There's no uncertainty of "maybe" getting Leonard or Thompson.


2 reasons 1. LBJ is getting older, and 2. most people hate him.


2nd reason isn't valid. I addressed the first by citing how we could move him to the low post and run triangle split cuts from the original version. Allows him to score closer to the basket + facilitate out of the post, which he is excellent at.


So I still don't have to like LeBron, and also screw Fizdale too because LeBron doesn't run the team.


Well who would you suggest? We can't hire Blatt for obvious reasons. Maybe steal Messina away from the Spurs?

If Walton would just copy the Warriors plays we'd be so much better. The main thing he's taken is an outdated dribble weave play which sucks.


It's because Luke doesn't have the players to play the Warriors style.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:49 pm    Post subject:

fontana3d wrote:
bfc1125roy wrote:
fontana3d wrote:
bfc1125roy wrote:
fontana3d wrote:
bfc1125roy wrote:
DangeRuss wrote:
bfc1125roy wrote:
DangeRuss wrote:
Perfect offseason doesnít include lebron


Then what does it include?


George and keeping options open for next year in hopes of getting Leonard or klay


Why not just sign George + LBJ. There's no uncertainty of "maybe" getting Leonard or Thompson.


2 reasons 1. LBJ is getting older, and 2. most people hate him.


2nd reason isn't valid. I addressed the first by citing how we could move him to the low post and run triangle split cuts from the original version. Allows him to score closer to the basket + facilitate out of the post, which he is excellent at.


So I still don't have to like LeBron, and also screw Fizdale too because LeBron doesn't run the team.


Well who would you suggest? We can't hire Blatt for obvious reasons. Maybe steal Messina away from the Spurs?

If Walton would just copy the Warriors plays we'd be so much better. The main thing he's taken is an outdated dribble weave play which sucks.


It's because Luke doesn't have the players to play the Warriors style.


His offense is horrible. Warriors run the least PnR in the league and it works because they have everyone touch the ball on offense, so they exert more effort and their energy isn't zapped. It's something he learned from Phil. We only run PnRs or ISOs. I say we fire him, but that's a different discussion.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:54 pm    Post subject:

bfc1125roy wrote:
Four Decade Bandwagon wrote:
Contenders or Champions?

I am not as optimistic that all the dominoes fall into place as many think. If they do then sure they can compete in June.

Much will depend on how the roster actually looks when the season starts. Not sure he will be as patient to mentor as described. Also depends on how they fill those question marks on the depth chart.

Also not as optimistic Father Time is as generous to James as described. How much he declines physically and coasts mentally into retirement is still to be determined. Its coming just a matter of when.

Credit to the FO for creating the possibilities. Perhaps all the pieces fall into place as flawlessly as you describe. Iím skeptical and need to see it


I say we can move LBJ to the post ala MJ in the second 3 peat. He has the size to remain effective there. See the split cut play I posted.

Also we can sign a defensive center easily. Then it just depends on our backup PG and SF, which we can handle without a problem.


You have done an xlnt job of describing what is possible.

Just think James is starting to decline. Especially on defense. Already starting to take plays off, not closeing out on shooters and floating in general. Not horrible but it is starting. Still an incredible player.

May not be my favorite option but I see the possibilities too. I am simply not as enamored with the flaws and downsides that are being ignored.

But your assessment of the possibilities if everything goes perfectly is is awesome daydream about. Just curious when everything went so perfectly for any team?
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:59 pm    Post subject:

Four Decade Bandwagon wrote:
bfc1125roy wrote:
Four Decade Bandwagon wrote:
Contenders or Champions?

I am not as optimistic that all the dominoes fall into place as many think. If they do then sure they can compete in June.

Much will depend on how the roster actually looks when the season starts. Not sure he will be as patient to mentor as described. Also depends on how they fill those question marks on the depth chart.

Also not as optimistic Father Time is as generous to James as described. How much he declines physically and coasts mentally into retirement is still to be determined. Its coming just a matter of when.

Credit to the FO for creating the possibilities. Perhaps all the pieces fall into place as flawlessly as you describe. Iím skeptical and need to see it


I say we can move LBJ to the post ala MJ in the second 3 peat. He has the size to remain effective there. See the split cut play I posted.

Also we can sign a defensive center easily. Then it just depends on our backup PG and SF, which we can handle without a problem.


You have done an xlnt job of describing what is possible.

Just think James is starting to decline. Especially on defense. Already starting to take plays off, not closeing out on shooters and floating in general. Not horrible but it is starting. Still an incredible player.

May not be my favorite option but I see the possibilities too. I am simply not as enamored with the flaws and downsides that are being ignored.

But your assessment of the possibilities if everything goes perfectly is is awesome daydream about. Just curious when everything went so perfectly for any team?


Fair enough. I don't expect James to play good defense as he gets up there in age, much like Kobe. But then again, I think Ingram can play the role of our second "elite" defender, if we let James/George focus on the offensive end.
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