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GoldenThroat
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:43 am    Post subject:

silkwilkes wrote:
I personally feel that you take the shots you feel comfortable taking... because those give you the best chance of making them. So if he's only comfortable taking 2-3 three pointers a game right now, he shouldn't force more.

I obviously understand shot efficiency etc.

But making shots (whatever they are) = more confidence = other facets of your game getting a boos like activity, defense and passing.

To me, BI is doing everything he needs to do really well right now other than getting his FT percentage up. You wish he'd be more physical around the rim... but he needs to bulk for that.

Everything is going in the right direction though.


He doesn't make the other shots, silk. He shoots 35.2% on pull-up jumpers. He makes the shots at the rim (66.0%) AND 3's (39.3%) more often than those pull-ups, and that's before you account for the extra point on the 3's.

If his play over the last few games isn't a glowing neon sign that this is how he should have been used all along and how he should be used going forward, I don't know what is.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:50 am    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
CRoost wrote:
Lol the average players don’t have his length. If he can develop physically like Lebron or Giannis then he can keep going at the rim. I ain’t worried if the stats says it’s not an efficient shot, I’m more concern if Untouchable can actually pick teams apart with his midrange.


Then have fun watching him run into the same brick wall over and over again. As though his length has anything to do with him making mid range pull-ups.

He's more than doubled his catch & shoot attempts while cutting his pull-up attempts in half in the last 4 games, which has not-so-concidentally been when he's been absolutely killing it. So stubborn.


Hey, as long as he and the team realize what's working well for him (which they appear to be), I could care less about what anybody else says. And BI is only gonna be pushed more off ball with IT onboard and Lonzo returning soon, which should force him more into his natural role and be good for him overall.

The only thing I'll miss is that we'll see less of point forward BI, and even though he's not ready to be our closer full time, I do think it's still worth it to initiate offense with him from time to time in tight games since he's occasionally the better option. I worry that if he gets pushed off ball too much, he's just gonna go back to being passive or even frozen out a bit like last night when IT tried taking over. Luke is going to have to adjust yet again and find the right balance with him.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:50 am    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
CRoost wrote:
Lol the average players don’t have his length. If he can develop physically like Lebron or Giannis then he can keep going at the rim. I ain’t worried if the stats says it’s not an efficient shot, I’m more concern if Untouchable can actually pick teams apart with his midrange.


Then have fun watching him run into the same brick wall over and over again. As though his length has anything to do with him making mid range pull-ups.

He's more than doubled his catch & shoot attempts while cutting his pull-up attempts in half in the last 4 games, which has not-so-concidentally been when he's been absolutely killing it. So stubborn.


Lol you are deeply invested into numbers and it’s encouraging sign that his percentage is up and all that but I’m thinking more of long term. I need him to have a confidence on his midrange which is essentially a shot that is always gonna be available for him. Comes playoff time, this is what I call a game changer. Look at KD, his midrange is strong that’s why he is unstoppable when it matters. I can’t argue about his catch and shoot, he’s already doing damage with that but in order for to be that player, he need put his pull up and his midrange together. Let me put it this way, he needs to be a threat everywhere. You can argue that he needs to do what’s working well for him , yes for a championship team you have to make him that.
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Scoffs
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:56 am    Post subject:

Great job BI. Keep up the hard work. Next season, start posting up a lot more.
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GoldenThroat
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:59 am    Post subject:

TheBlackMamba wrote:
Hey, as long as he and the team realize what's working well for him (which they appear to be), I could care less about what anybody else says. And BI is only gonna be pushed more off ball with IT onboard and Lonzo returning soon, which should force him more into his natural role and be good for him overall.

The only thing I'll miss is that we'll see less of point forward BI, and even though he's not ready to be our closer full time, I do think it's still worth it to initiate offense with him from time to time in tight games since he's occasionally the better option. I worry that if he gets pushed off ball too much, he's just gonna go back to being passive or even frozen out a bit like last night when IT tried taking over. Luke is going to have to adjust yet again and find the right balance with him.


Last night we saw both the good and bad of the impact that IT will have on Ingram. BI got more clean catch & shoot looks than normal, which was in part because he was pushed into that more natural role for him, as you mentioned. But then at the end of the game, he got frozen out due to IT having the ball as much as he did.

That said, there have been plenty of other games where Ingram has had quiet finishes after strong starts, so I wouldn't entirely attribute that to IT.
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LakerLogic
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:30 am    Post subject:

BI's jumper looks way more fluid on the release. Less (bleep)-back I think.
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LakerSD
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:35 am    Post subject:

BI with 3 point shooting is what CJ McCollum said...a problem!
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LakerLogic
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:37 am    Post subject:

If he is going to shoot 3s like this, you basically have your Kawhi Leonard. Just add PG and Capela and be done with it.
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GoldenThroat
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:57 am    Post subject:

LakerLogic wrote:
BI's jumper looks way more fluid on the release. Less (bleep)-back I think.


at the swear filter.
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LakerLogic
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:59 am    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
LakerLogic wrote:
BI's jumper looks way more fluid on the release. Less (bleep)-back I think.


at the swear filter.




Yeah just saw that.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:40 pm    Post subject:

His jumper is looking wet. Finally, it's coming along I love what i'm seeing from him lately.
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dao
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:47 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
CRoost wrote:
Lol the average players don’t have his length. If he can develop physically like Lebron or Giannis then he can keep going at the rim. I ain’t worried if the stats says it’s not an efficient shot, I’m more concern if Untouchable can actually pick teams apart with his midrange.


Then have fun watching him run into the same brick wall over and over again. As though his length has anything to do with him making mid range pull-ups.

He's more than doubled his catch & shoot attempts while cutting his pull-up attempts in half in the last 4 games, which has not-so-concidentally been when he's been absolutely killing it. So stubborn.
he took a couple heat check mid range jumpers last night, after having success with the higher efficiency shots. I'm like damn man, if you want to heat check, give us a reckless drive to the rim or a pull up three. I love Kobe but this is the age of analytics lol. That mid range sheet is an eye sore. Luckily he's growing out of it.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:17 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
TheBlackMamba wrote:
Hey, as long as he and the team realize what's working well for him (which they appear to be), I could care less about what anybody else says. And BI is only gonna be pushed more off ball with IT onboard and Lonzo returning soon, which should force him more into his natural role and be good for him overall.

The only thing I'll miss is that we'll see less of point forward BI, and even though he's not ready to be our closer full time, I do think it's still worth it to initiate offense with him from time to time in tight games since he's occasionally the better option. I worry that if he gets pushed off ball too much, he's just gonna go back to being passive or even frozen out a bit like last night when IT tried taking over. Luke is going to have to adjust yet again and find the right balance with him.


Last night we saw both the good and bad of the impact that IT will have on Ingram. BI got more clean catch & shoot looks than normal, which was in part because he was pushed into that more natural role for him, as you mentioned. But then at the end of the game, he got frozen out due to IT having the ball as much as he did.

That said, there have been plenty of other games where Ingram has had quiet finishes after strong starts, so I wouldn't entirely attribute that to IT.

I hope the coaching staff can make some adjustments there and make IT play the right way.

But I still hope we don't have to finish close games with IT on the floor too many times. His defensive abilities are just too easy too abuse for the opposing team.
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GoldenThroat
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:21 pm    Post subject:

dao wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
CRoost wrote:
Lol the average players don’t have his length. If he can develop physically like Lebron or Giannis then he can keep going at the rim. I ain’t worried if the stats says it’s not an efficient shot, I’m more concern if Untouchable can actually pick teams apart with his midrange.


Then have fun watching him run into the same brick wall over and over again. As though his length has anything to do with him making mid range pull-ups.

He's more than doubled his catch & shoot attempts while cutting his pull-up attempts in half in the last 4 games, which has not-so-concidentally been when he's been absolutely killing it. So stubborn.
he took a couple heat check mid range jumpers last night, after having success with the higher efficiency shots. I'm like damn man, if you want to heat check, give us a reckless drive to the rim or a pull up three. I love Kobe but this is the age of analytics lol. That mid range sheet is an eye sore. Luckily he's growing out of it.


From your lips to God's ears. I'd rather see him pull up from 30 than from 20.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:22 pm    Post subject:

I believe not involving Ingram on offense down the stretch cost us the game
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GoldenThroat
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:23 pm    Post subject:

His possessions used in the last 4 games vs. the other 47.



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TheBlackMamba
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:26 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
His possessions used in the last 4 games vs. the other 47.

https://files.slack.com/files-pri/T73SEJSAF-F98DTJAEB/screen_shot_2018-02-11_at_3.25.47_pm.png

https://files.slack.com/files-pri/T73SEJSAF-F97FQ9HFF/screen_shot_2018-02-11_at_3.26.43_pm.png


Graphics aren't showing for me...
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trablos
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:28 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
CRoost wrote:
Lol the average players don’t have his length. If he can develop physically like Lebron or Giannis then he can keep going at the rim. I ain’t worried if the stats says it’s not an efficient shot, I’m more concern if Untouchable can actually pick teams apart with his midrange.


Then have fun watching him run into the same brick wall over and over again. As though his length has anything to do with him making mid range pull-ups.

He's more than doubled his catch & shoot attempts while cutting his pull-up attempts in half in the last 4 games, which has not-so-concidentally been when he's been absolutely killing it. So stubborn.

I get your point GT and want to see more catch and shoot from him, but a naive observation is that guys like Kobe, MJ, Droz, and many other wings made careers out of perfecting their mid-range game, so it's not like that shot is dead. I understand why its less efficient than any other shot but its important to have a counter to them cutting off the drive which he struggled with badly to open the year.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:34 pm    Post subject:

OT, but Tatum doesn't look nearly as impressive anymore as he was hyped by the east coast-biased media to be. I prefer BI in the short and long term.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:37 pm    Post subject:

trablos wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
CRoost wrote:
Lol the average players don’t have his length. If he can develop physically like Lebron or Giannis then he can keep going at the rim. I ain’t worried if the stats says it’s not an efficient shot, I’m more concern if Untouchable can actually pick teams apart with his midrange.


Then have fun watching him run into the same brick wall over and over again. As though his length has anything to do with him making mid range pull-ups.

He's more than doubled his catch & shoot attempts while cutting his pull-up attempts in half in the last 4 games, which has not-so-concidentally been when he's been absolutely killing it. So stubborn.

I get your point GT and want to see more catch and shoot from him, but a naive observation is that guys like Kobe, MJ, Droz, and many other wings made careers out of perfecting their mid-range game, so it's not like that shot is dead. I understand why its less efficient than any other shot but its important to have a counter to them cutting off the drive which he struggled with badly to open the year.

Ingram isn't hitting it like those guys can/could though.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:46 pm    Post subject:

Practice wrote:
trablos wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
CRoost wrote:
Lol the average players don’t have his length. If he can develop physically like Lebron or Giannis then he can keep going at the rim. I ain’t worried if the stats says it’s not an efficient shot, I’m more concern if Untouchable can actually pick teams apart with his midrange.


Then have fun watching him run into the same brick wall over and over again. As though his length has anything to do with him making mid range pull-ups.

He's more than doubled his catch & shoot attempts while cutting his pull-up attempts in half in the last 4 games, which has not-so-concidentally been when he's been absolutely killing it. So stubborn.

I get your point GT and want to see more catch and shoot from him, but a naive observation is that guys like Kobe, MJ, Droz, and many other wings made careers out of perfecting their mid-range game, so it's not like that shot is dead. I understand why its less efficient than any other shot but its important to have a counter to them cutting off the drive which he struggled with badly to open the year.

Ingram isn't hitting it like those guys can/could though.

I know but I just wanted to make a point about the usefulness of the mid range game. Its obvious he likes that shot and he has a lot of potential there and would be a nightmare for defenses having to guard a guy who can kill you from anywhere on the floor.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:51 pm    Post subject:

I don't think you guys are entirely disagreeing with one another..

Is the catch and shoot 3 a better shot for him at this stage of his career, and from a statistical stand point? Sure.. numbers don't lie..

I think what others are trying to say is that him developing a solid mid range game will only serve to make him a more well rounded offensive weapon. Not that he should live in that part of the floor exclusively. So if he's open from mid range, he should take it..

I personally don't like the mid range J's over shorter players on the block, but I guess he's not strong enough to back those guys in just yet.. So I can live with it.
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trablos
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:53 pm    Post subject:

SocalDevin wrote:
I don't think you guys are entirely disagreeing with one another..

Is the catch and shoot 3 a better shot for him at this stage of his career, and from a statistical stand point? Sure.. numbers don't lie..

I think what others are trying to say is that him developing a solid mid range game will only serve to make him a more well rounded offensive weapon. Not that he should live in that part of the floor exclusively. So if he's open from mid range, he should take it..

I personally don't like the mid range J's over shorter players on the block, but I guess he's not strong enough to back those guys in just yet.. So I can live with it.

Yeah this is fair. The best scorers in the league still have it in their arsenal, but it shouldn't be your "goto" shot IMO. Of course the most important thing is making the right decisions/reads every possession so maybe if someone else has an open three the ball should start swinging.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:54 pm    Post subject:

trablos wrote:
Practice wrote:
trablos wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
CRoost wrote:
Lol the average players don’t have his length. If he can develop physically like Lebron or Giannis then he can keep going at the rim. I ain’t worried if the stats says it’s not an efficient shot, I’m more concern if Untouchable can actually pick teams apart with his midrange.


Then have fun watching him run into the same brick wall over and over again. As though his length has anything to do with him making mid range pull-ups.

He's more than doubled his catch & shoot attempts while cutting his pull-up attempts in half in the last 4 games, which has not-so-concidentally been when he's been absolutely killing it. So stubborn.

I get your point GT and want to see more catch and shoot from him, but a naive observation is that guys like Kobe, MJ, Droz, and many other wings made careers out of perfecting their mid-range game, so it's not like that shot is dead. I understand why its less efficient than any other shot but its important to have a counter to them cutting off the drive which he struggled with badly to open the year.

Ingram isn't hitting it like those guys can/could though.

I know but I just wanted to make a point about the usefulness of the mid range game. Its obvious he likes that shot and he has a lot of potential there and would be a nightmare for defenses having to guard a guy who can kill you from anywhere on the floor.


Yeah no one disregards the misrange game.

But at the same time the entire point is that Ingram should be maximizing what he does best right now, and working on the mid range in a secondary sense to come along as his shot continues to improve.

Instead of going 20% spot ups, 30% mid range 50% drive to the basket.

He should be doing 40% spot ups 50% driving to the basket and maybe 10% mid range.

That doesn't mean his mid range won't improve, but it means that he'll be maximizing what he does best, while his mid range slowly but surely improves, but at the same time he'll be doing what he's been doing.

No one's saying he shouldn't develop his mid range. What's being said is that he should be utilizing his spot ups and his drives at a much higher percentage as priority over the mid range game.


Look at Steph Curry, he shoots about 55-60% from mid range, but look at how often he either gets to the basket or shoots a three in comparison.

It means that Steph has a go to mid range shot when the defense gives him in which again increases his efficiency, but that doesn't mean he seeks it, he just has it 'just in case' the defense gives that opening. But the majority of the time he's going to the basket or he's shooting threes.

So yes, Ingram having an efficient mid range shot will open up more things and opportunities for him, however he shouldn't prioritize it in games over his drives or spot ups which have been much more efficient.

If he gets to the point where his mid range is efficient, GREAT that means it will be there when the defense gives that opening, but he should still prioritize his drives an spot ups, even in that scenario as well.
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Last edited by MJST on Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:58 pm    Post subject:

trablos wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
I don't think you guys are entirely disagreeing with one another..

Is the catch and shoot 3 a better shot for him at this stage of his career, and from a statistical stand point? Sure.. numbers don't lie..

I think what others are trying to say is that him developing a solid mid range game will only serve to make him a more well rounded offensive weapon. Not that he should live in that part of the floor exclusively. So if he's open from mid range, he should take it..

I personally don't like the mid range J's over shorter players on the block, but I guess he's not strong enough to back those guys in just yet.. So I can live with it.

Yeah this is fair. The best scorers in the league still have it in their arsenal, but it shouldn't be your "goto" shot IMO. Of course the most important thing is making the right decisions/reads every possession so maybe if someone else has an open three the ball should start swinging.


Yea making the right reads is key, and making them almost instantly.. which he's starting to do with more frequency.
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