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LakerBaker
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:02 pm    Post subject:

I look at it like a class, there are all the grades leading up to the final, but the final is worth at least 50% of your grade... so far I give management an A, but this summer is the final exam...
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:10 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
trablos wrote:
No need to trash Mitch to build up Magilinka (leaving Jim out because he unanimously sucks). Mitch was here for 5 championships and made some horrible moves to end his tenure, but he did a lot of good when he was here and was always the consummate professional. Rob and Magic can still be great without needing to make Mitch look bad.


It's something that comes with fans though, strong emotions. Part of the whole reasons people root for sports in the first place.


I don't even fault Mitch to be honest. He was the engineer of our last championship run. Unfortunately he was tethered to the Buss family member who lost the battle for the team. Love what Mitch did for us but I'm ok with moving on too. Pelinka has shown some chops.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:12 pm    Post subject:

D. Sharp wrote:
DLaker wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Daphanabe wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Daphanabe wrote:
kwase wrote:
This FO is running circles around the previous one. Anybody who doesn't see that is just bias. In Magic we trust!


Exactly! Dealt an awful hand, yet in just a year:
- now have flexibility for the future (2 max)
- much better team (results speak for themselves)
- finally focusing on analytics
- doubling down on fitness
- caring about culture
- player development galore (see BI, Ingram, etc)
- nailing drafting
- winning trades
- becoming a place people want to play in (see PG)
- playing the game (finally skirting the rules on tampering)
- etc.


Yup. However, we need them to close this out. Having cap space is a means, not an end.

I do trust that even if they whiff on max FAs, they won't do a Moz/Deng franchise crippling desperation move. They've earned must trust on that end.


Definitely agree. You nailed it on the head - they’ve earned our trust. Now let’s sit back and see what happens.


I'm not panicking (though I'd be disappointed if we didn't get 2 or even 1 max). I think they'd thoughtfully pick out some good players to build around our young core. But i will not be happy if they merely punt 2 max to 2019. That would be a mistake IMO.


I would not be disappointed if the Lakers could not get the FA this summer as long as I see that they are making smart decision as a FO. I like how the FO has positioned ourselves to improve in more than just one way (ie FA, Trade, Draft and Cap flex). Unlike the old regime which was just positioned to hit the homerun IMO. But like yinoma said, I hope we can get that superstars this summer already we waited long enough


I don't understand how not getting an top FA wouldn't be a disappointment. Every move this FO has made so far has been predicated around the 2Max plan. Regardless of how they're doing it, the endgame is the same as the previously FO, to be positioned to hit the home run. Unlike the previous FO however, if they come up empty handed they not only would've struck out with FAs, but also would've lost multiple quality players in the process.

As others have stated, my grade is TBD until the offseason:

If at least 1 max comes, it was a success.
If no max comes, it was a huge disappointment.

I hope they succeed.


This FO made our team Flexible. Fastest way there is to sign a Max FA talent, but if KG, Lebron, PG or Paul don't want to sign 2018 (with cousin out shame he got seriously injured), we positioned ourselves to improved from within (great young core) and wait for next year 2019 or see if a trade is possible like (Greek Freak, Clay, AD or Kawhi if they become available). There is no guarantee a FA will sign, but this FO made a great stride to be flexible on improving in a positive way slowly or with a homerun. Did not see that from our last FO, sorry, narrow minded vision. (give away draft picks, lose our cap space, arrogant in thinking we will get a max FA because of the Laker's name).
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:13 pm    Post subject:

So far the front office has jettisoned some big contracts, acquired late first rounders, and created cap space flexibility. So basically they've given the Laker team a nice little reset in order to give them options for improving the team. They've also hit on some potential late first round gems and seen them develop into solid NBA caliber players. So that's basically 2 big tasks that they're checking off.

The big test will be what they do with the cap space. Even if they don't hit on the maximum salary players, as long as they don't waste it on marginal players, it'll tell us a bit about the front office. The last one panicked and wasted years of planning to grab 2 guys that don't move the needle in terms of actual basketball impact. The last thing this organization can afford is to collect all of this cap space and just once again waste it on non-impact players and be back to where they were before their arrival.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:46 pm    Post subject:

LakerBaker wrote:
I look at it like a class, there are all the grades leading up to the final, but the final is worth at least 50% of your grade... so far I give management an A, but this summer is the final exam...


That's a reasonable way of looking at it. The problem with the analogy is that we have sacrificed assets. If we fail to land two major free agents this summer, then we got a poor return for those assets, and we don't get a do-over.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:07 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
AFireInside619 wrote:
And look at how Riley did Wade. Asked him to take pay cuts his whole career, Wade gets screwed by Lebron by opting out, and then Riley relays Wade by telling him take 10m or hit the road.

So yeah, there are some similarities with the two FO. But based on their competitive nature I don't think Magic & Rob would have given Kobe anything close to 48.5m and they definitely would not do MozDeng.


I never understand the Kobe contract. However, it could have been amusing to see the apocalypse here if the Lakers had told Kobe "thanks but your services are no longer needed."


Yeah, people would have freaked. I also heard sponsors and tv partners all wanted Kobe back, so there were other things involved. I didn't want the Lakers or Kobe to do that deal, but let me play devil's advocate to my comment. Look at what Miami has done with the Wade capspace money. They are a good team but signed mediocre players to enormous contracts. That could have been us I guess. So maybe in a way it worked out? Who knows. Or we could have signed Lebron and made Kobe a wingman.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:28 pm    Post subject:

LakerBaker wrote:
I look at it like a class, there are all the grades leading up to the final, but the final is worth at least 50% of your grade... so far I give management an A, but this summer is the final exam...


This Summer should only be the mid term.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:26 pm    Post subject:

trablos wrote:
No need to trash Mitch to build up Magilinka (leaving Jim out because he unanimously sucks). Mitch was here for 5 championships and made some horrible moves to end his tenure, but he did a lot of good when he was here and was always the consummate professional. Rob and Magic can still be great without needing to make Mitch look bad.


There is some truth to that and I am certainly guilty of it as I have been hard on Mitch.

One thing I will say about Mitch is he always conducted and comported himself with great class and certainly never did anything to embarrass the organization or act the fool.

I for one appreciate that type of professionalism. But I don't think it is over the line to question his performance the last several years, by any objective measure it was poor.
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tox
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:26 pm    Post subject:

They've been good. I've disagreed with some of their moves, but their goal has been clearing space for two max players. In the service of that, they've done a good job. Round that out by drafting well and betting big on BI which is looking really smart right now and there's not much to complain about.

If this summer they don't get any free agents then they'll get some criticism. Even then, by trading Russell and Mozgov and Clarkson and Nance, they've cleared a ton of space in 2019, so their grade is pretty much incomplete.

We'll see. Ultimately they're on the same path as Jim & Mitch pre-2016, but with a lot more ethos and talented players to attract free agents. I'm optimistic about PG in 2018, but of course PG in 2018 was possible without making any trades so we'll see.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:36 pm    Post subject:

tox wrote:
They've been good. I've disagreed with some of their moves, but their goal has been clearing space for two max players. In the service of that, they've done a good job. Round that out by drafting well and betting big on BI which is looking really smart right now and there's not much to complain about.

If this summer they don't get any free agents then they'll get some criticism. Even then, by trading Russell and Mozgov and Clarkson and Nance, they've cleared a ton of space in 2019, so their grade is pretty much incomplete.

We'll see. Ultimately they're on the same path as Jim & Mitch pre-2016, but with a lot more ethos and talented players to attract free agents. I'm optimistic about PG in 2018, but of course PG in 2018 was possible without making any trades so we'll see.

I'm not sure how this is the case. Our situation in 14-16 was completely different than where we are now, back then we were desperate for anyone. I mean guys like Chris Kaman and Jordan Hill were getting serious minutes. Every FA knew Kobe has a few years left with no hope in sight after that.

Right now we are primed to make a run by adding great talent to lead our youngins into their 3rd and 4th years when they start coming into their own. Comparing the strategies of Magilinka and Mitch and Jim are fruitless without examining the circumstances that prompted those actions. So just because this FO is targeting all star FA's doesn't mean its the same thing as the previous regime.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:05 pm    Post subject:

70sdude wrote:
lakers4life78 wrote:
trablos wrote:
70sdude wrote:
Falling - not failing - marks for the most recent transaction.

Folks have fallen in love with a get rich quick scheme, the "add two max" or "add one max" player. I feel the the prospect of actually acquiring Paul George - let alone a second worthy max player - sucks in the near term. It's the strategy I have a problem with, because what I see likely in 2008-2009 is carrying two overpaid one year guys again who don't improve the club much. Painful stagnancy.

I had bought into the patience theme with each of the past two seasons because I felt that last week's young core was moving along an achievable path to success (i.e., development of high chemistry).

Now, that's gone.

It's funny when I hear this narrative, because it makes it sound like teams can go out and pick up All-Star players like picking up groceries. It takes careful planning and timing to put your team in that position in the first place, which is no easy task. This is not trading 2 first for a broken Steve Nash (which was the right move at the time since we were in contention) or trading 4 firsts for an again KG and Pierce (worst robbery in history).

We are getting the best of both worlds in keeping the best of our core (BI/Jules/Zo/Kuz/Hart) while getting short term replacement in production for JC and Nance (IT and Frye), while still having the best cap situation in the league, getting a pick back in a deep draft, and people think we are blowing up our core? It's really more an emotional plea of losing some role players who we got to see grow, but to get to the next level tough decisions have to be made, and every single one of these so far were the right ones.


Yes, it's funny when people call these guys "young core" like they're embiid or giannis or something. When the lakers lost 9 in a row, everyone wanted the guys dealt. Lakers have cheaper and better players in Hart and Kuzma filling in for Nance and Clarkson, give them and Randle more minutes. DLo is nothing special either and that deal was a good one for LA.

At the end of the day the Lakers are 23-32 and the 11th seed int he west. the core was going nowhere except the bottom rung of the playoff ladder next year.

It's like people forgot what this organization is about. Yes, you need to acquire some young cheap talent and go through the painful seasons to put yourself in the right position to potentially land free agents. They have and retained their highest ceiling, most productive young talent and traded back into the first round this year. Anyone complaining must be happy with mediocrity.


Actually, I haven't forgotten what this organization was all about, but the current owners and managers may have lost their own way in finding the path back into the playoffs, into playoff relevance, into championship contention. The club is and has been stuck on reaching even palatable .500 ball and that my friend, is what this organization has been all about for five years or more.

That's just this fan's perception. There is no longer the Laker franchise that had Jerry West, Jerry Buss or a powerful version of Kobe Bryant. What we have here is just another NBA club, one which thinks it knows its way back to prominence. Until they prove they do, they don't.


And what were the Lakers in the 90's that had Jerry West, Jerry Buss, and Kobe Bryant and didn't sniff a championship for 12 years?
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tox
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:12 pm    Post subject:

trablos wrote:
tox wrote:
They've been good. I've disagreed with some of their moves, but their goal has been clearing space for two max players. In the service of that, they've done a good job. Round that out by drafting well and betting big on BI which is looking really smart right now and there's not much to complain about.

If this summer they don't get any free agents then they'll get some criticism. Even then, by trading Russell and Mozgov and Clarkson and Nance, they've cleared a ton of space in 2019, so their grade is pretty much incomplete.

We'll see. Ultimately they're on the same path as Jim & Mitch pre-2016, but with a lot more ethos and talented players to attract free agents. I'm optimistic about PG in 2018, but of course PG in 2018 was possible without making any trades so we'll see.

I'm not sure how this is the case. Our situation in 14-16 was completely different than where we are now, back then we were desperate for anyone. I mean guys like Chris Kaman and Jordan Hill were getting serious minutes. Every FA knew Kobe has a few years left with no hope in sight after that.

Right now we are primed to make a run by adding great talent to lead our youngins into their 3rd and 4th years when they start coming into their own. Comparing the strategies of Magilinka and Mitch and Jim are fruitless without examining the circumstances that prompted those actions. So just because this FO is targeting all star FA's doesn't mean its the same thing as the previous regime.

I agree, but you can look at 2015 and see the same exact path. Have cheap young talent, build around max free agents. What's different about Magic and Rob is they don't have to deal with Kobe and "competing." they inherited a better situation (despite the MozDeng contracts), but fundamentally get young talent & attract maxes is the exact same path.

So yes, the Lakers are in different positions now versus then, but that's because Magic and Rob were more fortunate when they took over (again, granting the MozDeng contracts). Fundamentally, build around young people and sign maxes is the same plan though. Hopefully it works better for Magic and Rob -- I have optimism it will.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:47 pm    Post subject:

Let's say we don't get any max free agents. The end result will be that the new regime effectively traded (the way I see it) Jordan Clarkson, Larry Nance, and D'Angelo Russell for Josh Hart. Since we have the same scouting department and guys behind our draft picks as we did when Mitch was in charge, I have to assume we would still have drafted Kuzma and Ball.

Point is, they have to get some max guys to sign or they aren't really any better than the last regime (and maybe even worse since it would mean we lost three young players/prospects for nothing).
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:20 pm    Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:
Let's say we don't get any max free agents. The end result will be that the new regime effectively traded (the way I see it) Jordan Clarkson, Larry Nance, and D'Angelo Russell for Josh Hart. Since we have the same scouting department and guys behind our draft picks as we did when Mitch was in charge, I have to assume we would still have drafted Kuzma and Ball.

Point is, they have to get some max guys to sign or they aren't really any better than the last regime (and maybe even worse since it would mean we lost three young players/prospects for nothing).


You're missing Bryant and the Cavs pick.
JC, Larry, dlo, Moz for Hart, Bryant, Cavs pick, maybe Brook (if he resigns).

I'm on the fence about kuz. They liked him. And he was high on their board. But did magic and Rob have anything to do with it? Listening to magic he seemed like he and Rob watching kuz at the combine was what did it. But we don't know for sure. Would jim and Mitch have gone with kuz? Perhaps.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:08 am    Post subject:

Also missing is the trade of Lou. We not only got a future 1st, but it gave us the ability to draft Lonzo because of the absence of Lou. With an additional win or two (which is realistic if Lou had stayed as he was our MVP) we would have not only been unable to draft Zo, but could have lost that pick all together.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:24 am    Post subject:

There are a couple more personnel moves I forgot to mention.

5/24/17
Lakers hire Gunnar Peterson as Director of Strength and Endurance Training

10/6/17
Lakers Hire Jason Rosenfeld as Director of Basketball Analytics
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:30 am    Post subject:

Judah wrote:

I still think that if the old regime was still here, they would've fought their hardest for a Melo trade once Phil put him on the block, just so they could say, 'Hey, we brought an All-Star to the team just in time for the ASG.' And the whole thing would've been an epic disaster.


How quickly we forget. Jim and Mitch not wanting to give up Ingram to trade for Demarcus Cousins was the last straw that led to Jeanie firing them. It's highly doubtful they would've traded anything for Melo.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:31 am    Post subject:

The one reason I totally understood for the regime change was the mounting desperation that Jim faced as he got closer to his self imposed deadline (which IMO was foolish to start with).
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:33 am    Post subject:

I think hiring Jason Rosenfeld is going to pay dividends. I feel more comfortable that he is on board.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:41 am    Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:
Let's say we don't get any max free agents. The end result will be that the new regime effectively traded (the way I see it) Jordan Clarkson, Larry Nance, and D'Angelo Russell for Josh Hart. Since we have the same scouting department and guys behind our draft picks as we did when Mitch was in charge, I have to assume we would still have drafted Kuzma and Ball.

Point is, they have to get some max guys to sign or they aren't really any better than the last regime (and maybe even worse since it would mean we lost three young players/prospects for nothing).


This is pretty much it. If we don't get the 2 max guys this summer, then why did we give up Clarkson, Nance, and Russell? Clarkson and Nance aren't world beaters, but they help form the core of a really strong bench as Cleveland is finding out now. If we don't sign anyone, we look stupid for not packaging those guys for a Jimmy Butler or a Paul George, instead.


Last edited by Threatt_Level on Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:43 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:42 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
The one reason I totally understood for the regime change was the mounting desperation that Jim faced as he got closer to his self imposed deadline (which IMO was foolish to start with).


Jeanie was foolish to pressure him into living up to that deadline. Let's not forget her role in making Jim panic into signing MozDeng.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:48 am    Post subject:

Threatt_Level wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
The one reason I totally understood for the regime change was the mounting desperation that Jim faced as he got closer to his self imposed deadline (which IMO was foolish to start with).


Jeanie was foolish to pressure him into living up to that deadline. Let's not forget her role in making Jim panic into signing MozDeng.


Yes, it was foolish on both ends. But the deadline was set and imposed and by the trade deadline post Moz/Deng, the desperation was apparent.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:07 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Threatt_Level wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
The one reason I totally understood for the regime change was the mounting desperation that Jim faced as he got closer to his self imposed deadline (which IMO was foolish to start with).


Jeanie was foolish to pressure him into living up to that deadline. Let's not forget her role in making Jim panic into signing MozDeng.


Yes, it was foolish on both ends. But the deadline was set and imposed and by the trade deadline post Moz/Deng, the desperation was apparent.


I wonder too if Jeanie held him to the date as a chicken (bleep) way of getting rid of her brother. With a self imposed deadline, the need for change was driven by that and not Jeanie’s decision.
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