40 Best Careers in NBA History
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:34 pm    Post subject:

Liger24Zero wrote:
With how the guy is doing these rankings, where do you think Kobe is going to eventually be ranked as it pertains to this list?


My guess is that he will have Kobe in the top 10. My sense is that this guy values some of the attributes that favor Kobe.

But as AV says, it wouldn't surprise me if he ranked Kobe way down the list.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:06 pm    Post subject:

vanexelent wrote:


All told, I consider Magicís peak just short of the all-time greats, not only due to his defense, but because his ball-dominance introduces redundancies on good teams. On the flip side, because his offenses were so good, and his style somewhat unique, I can see an outside argument for him reaching Wilt and the next block of players. Either way, whatís clear is that with two more years comparable to his í91 campaign, he would move up multiple spots, and with three similar seasons would be pushing the top five. Instead, he narrowly edges rival Larry Bird for the 10th-most valuable career in NBA history.


Using that simplistic, un-nuanced defense card on Magic is a quick clue that the writer is full of it. They always bring up Magic's defense while never mentioning the lack of D played by Nash types. Magic gets this ding for some reason while others slide. No one ever mentions Bird's D. Was he a great man defender? Magic wasn't Dennis Rodman on D, but he wasn't so bad that you can use it as a convenient narrative about how Jordan/Bron, etc are better players. This is a top careers list and the idiot is dropping a guy with 5 titles, 3 MVPs, and 3 FMVPs, once the leader of all time assists, yadda yadda. Defense is the convenient little trick. I've seen this so many times that's it's stale. This guy probably thinks it's a refreshing and new argument. I've even seen Kobe zealots on LG use that against Earv in arguments about Kobe/Mag, never mind that Kob would get burned by guys like Steve Black because he wouldn't bother chasing them around. There was nothing in it for Kobe to lock down an inferior player / no-name. He saved his demonstrative defensive efforts for the superstars and the nationally televised games. Bron does the same thing. They do the intense crouch and grab the edges of their shorts and slap the floor, etc.
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tox
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:14 pm    Post subject:

Liger24Zero wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
Liger24Zero wrote:
With how the guy is doing these rankings, where do you think Kobe is going to eventually be ranked as it pertains to this list?


September 15th?


I meant like where in the top 40 do you think he's going to rank Kobe in, before the answer officially comes out.

Maybe it was a cryptic way of suggesting he'll be ranked somewhere in 9-15.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:28 pm    Post subject:

non-player zealot wrote:
vanexelent wrote:


All told, I consider Magicís peak just short of the all-time greats, not only due to his defense, but because his ball-dominance introduces redundancies on good teams. On the flip side, because his offenses were so good, and his style somewhat unique, I can see an outside argument for him reaching Wilt and the next block of players. Either way, whatís clear is that with two more years comparable to his í91 campaign, he would move up multiple spots, and with three similar seasons would be pushing the top five. Instead, he narrowly edges rival Larry Bird for the 10th-most valuable career in NBA history.


Using that simplistic, un-nuanced defense card on Magic is a quick clue that the writer is full of it. They always bring up Magic's defense while never mentioning the lack of D played by Nash types. Magic gets this ding for some reason while others slide. No one ever mentions Bird's D. Was he a great man defender? Magic wasn't Dennis Rodman on D, but he wasn't so bad that you can use it as a convenient narrative about how Jordan/Bron, etc are better players. This is a top careers list and the idiot is dropping a guy with 5 titles, 3 MVPs, and 3 FMVPs, once the leader of all time assists, yadda yadda. Defense is the convenient little trick. I've seen this so many times that's it's stale. This guy probably thinks it's a refreshing and new argument. I've even seen Kobe zealots on LG use that against Earv in arguments about Kobe/Mag, never mind that Kob would get burned by guys like Steve Black because he wouldn't bother chasing them around. There was nothing in it for Kobe to lock down an inferior player / no-name. He saved his demonstrative defensive efforts for the superstars and the nationally televised games. Bron does the same thing. They do the intense crouch and grab the edges of their shorts and slap the floor, etc.


Kobe zealots? Cool.

What does any of that have anything to do with how great someone is on defense and how does it compare to Magic having zero defense.

I like both players equally and can admit theirs faults, but you seem to be extremely biased when it comes to Magic Johnson and how he's perceived from a basketball standpoint.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:30 pm    Post subject:

tox wrote:
Liger24Zero wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
Liger24Zero wrote:
With how the guy is doing these rankings, where do you think Kobe is going to eventually be ranked as it pertains to this list?


September 15th?


I meant like where in the top 40 do you think he's going to rank Kobe in, before the answer officially comes out.

Maybe it was a cryptic way of suggesting he'll be ranked somewhere in 9-15.


Could be.

Maybe.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:40 pm    Post subject:

tox wrote:
Liger24Zero wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
Liger24Zero wrote:
With how the guy is doing these rankings, where do you think Kobe is going to eventually be ranked as it pertains to this list?


September 15th?


I meant like where in the top 40 do you think he's going to rank Kobe in, before the answer officially comes out.

Maybe it was a cryptic way of suggesting he'll be ranked somewhere in 9-15.


Nah, it was an obvious dig at his weird, drawn out schedule.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:31 am    Post subject:

Liger24Zero wrote:


I like both players equally and can admit theirs faults, but you seem to be extremely biased when it comes to Magic Johnson and how he's perceived from a basketball standpoint.


Yeah, ok. Your 28 post track record shows no evidence of that lest you are a repeat poster that I might be familiar with. If you are, let me know and maybe I can verify. Abesnt of that, it's gonna be awhile before you can make a tear roll down my cheek. Until then, all I know is that ligers are bred for their skills in magic just like Earvin was.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:58 am    Post subject:

non-player zealot wrote:
Liger24Zero wrote:


I like both players equally and can admit theirs faults, but you seem to be extremely biased when it comes to Magic Johnson and how he's perceived from a basketball standpoint.


Yeah, ok. Your 28 post track record shows no evidence of that lest you are a repeat poster that I might be familiar with. If you are, let me know and maybe I can verify. Abesnt of that, it's gonna be awhile before you can make a tear roll down my cheek. Until then, all I know is that ligers are bred for their skills in magic just like Earvin was.


The no-defense debate is always fun for us Magicologists, but I'm still shook by that guy I told you about who was going off on Magic because, he said, Byron Scott brought the ball up most of the time for Lakers so Earvin wasn't true point guard like Stockton.
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:02 pm    Post subject:

non-player zealot wrote:
Using that simplistic, un-nuanced defense card on Magic is a quick clue that the writer is full of it. They always bring up Magic's defense while never mentioning the lack of D played by Nash types. Magic gets this ding for some reason while others slide. No one ever mentions Bird's D. Was he a great man defender?


He hasn't rated Nash yet, so you're premature on that score. As for Bird, he discusses the decline in his defense at some length. Bird was actually second team all-defense three times early in his career.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:58 am    Post subject:

Reggie Miller at #29

The discussion of Reggie's impact on the game is interesting. In a lot of ways, Reggie really was the father of the modern game. I liked that he gets credit as a pioneer of flopping.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:17 am    Post subject:

Patrick Ewing at #27

Ewing tends to be underrated because those Knicks teams were so defensive, and because they never could get over the top. Having said that, I can't really disagree with any of the analysis here.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:22 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Patrick Ewing at #27

Ewing tends to be underrated because those Knicks teams were so defensive, and because they never could get over the top. Having said that, I can't really disagree with any of the analysis here.


I think if the guy was just able to get a ring on one of those Knicks teams, his place in history would be much larger. Ewing @ Georgetown and his prime years in NY was a dominant player.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:35 pm    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Patrick Ewing at #27

Ewing tends to be underrated because those Knicks teams were so defensive, and because they never could get over the top. Having said that, I can't really disagree with any of the analysis here.


I think if the guy was just able to get a ring on one of those Knicks teams, his place in history would be much larger. Ewing @ Georgetown and his prime years in NY was a dominant player.



It would be larger, of course. That said, he never won an MVP award; and even with a ring he would still be the third center of his era, after Robinson and Hakeem. A ring might close the gap between him and Robinson but I don't think it would sent his rep to the strosphere.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:52 pm    Post subject:

I think you're right on the facts, AV, but a ring in NYC is a great story and when we're discussing a player's place in history, it's so narrative driven that I can't help but think Ewing would leap frog over Robinson. (With that said, no one really talks about Willis Reed anymore, and he's arguably more impressive [and more credentialed] than Ewing.)
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 6:20 pm    Post subject:

John Stockton at #25

The analysis is pretty good. Maybe we do tend to overrate Stockton because of his assist and steal numbers and because of his durability. I can't disagree with any of the limitations discussed in the article. He was not much of a scoring threat and his lack of size was something that could be exploited.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:35 am    Post subject:

Scottie Pippen at #23

The analysis is sound, but not as illuminating as some of the others. This is because Pippen played much of his career in the spotlight, so we have often discussed his abilities.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:44 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Scottie Pippen at #23

The analysis is sound, but not as illuminating as some of the others. This is because Pippen played much of his career in the spotlight, so we have often discussed his abilities.


That makes sense. The more contemporary the player, the less likely he'll be able to say things we haven't already heard or considered.

I'd be shocked, for example, if he were able to say anything about Jordan, Kobe or Lebron that was truly new to us, but if he does I will be impressed.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:21 pm    Post subject:

non-player zealot wrote:
vanexelent wrote:


All told, I consider Magicís peak just short of the all-time greats, not only due to his defense, but because his ball-dominance introduces redundancies on good teams. On the flip side, because his offenses were so good, and his style somewhat unique, I can see an outside argument for him reaching Wilt and the next block of players. Either way, whatís clear is that with two more years comparable to his í91 campaign, he would move up multiple spots, and with three similar seasons would be pushing the top five. Instead, he narrowly edges rival Larry Bird for the 10th-most valuable career in NBA history.


Using that simplistic, un-nuanced defense card on Magic is a quick clue that the writer is full of it. They always bring up Magic's defense while never mentioning the lack of D played by Nash types. Magic gets this ding for some reason while others slide. No one ever mentions Bird's D. Was he a great man defender? Magic wasn't Dennis Rodman on D, but he wasn't so bad that you can use it as a convenient narrative about how Jordan/Bron, etc are better players. This is a top careers list and the idiot is dropping a guy with 5 titles, 3 MVPs, and 3 FMVPs, once the leader of all time assists, yadda yadda. Defense is the convenient little trick. I've seen this so many times that's it's stale. This guy probably thinks it's a refreshing and new argument. I've even seen Kobe zealots on LG use that against Earv in arguments about Kobe/Mag, never mind that Kob would get burned by guys like Steve Black because he wouldn't bother chasing them around. There was nothing in it for Kobe to lock down an inferior player / no-name. He saved his demonstrative defensive efforts for the superstars and the nationally televised games. Bron does the same thing. They do the intense crouch and grab the edges of their shorts and slap the floor, etc.

the whole defense thing is always a red flag for me for someone trying to divert the conversation away from a gifted offensive player. it all centers around this idea that defense is unselfish and offense is selfish. there's a reason why one of the greatest defensive/rebounders (rodman) was also one of the worst nba level offensive players ever. it's a trade off. it's easy to focus on defense and hustling and positioning yourself for rebounds when you don't have to worry AT ALL about putting the ball in the hoop. so easy. also why rodman is not getting any mvp votes. lebron magically became a great defender all of a sudden when he joined the heat. i even called it, i said watch, all of a sudden the heat are going to be a defensive powerhouse. lebron was criticized heavily for defense early in his career. so many examples of the tradeoff, it's universal. pau had a reputation for bad defense, but was considered a gifted offensive player. kwame was praised for defense, blasted to hell for offense. same with dwight. guys like kobe, jordan enjoy both ends, but as npz says, the actual truth is grey about the way they play defense. scoring is not selfish. scoring is the best thing. if you're the best scorer, then most likely you are not going to be the best defender. what about mj you say? well, that's just reputation. mj didn't actually game to game play the best defense on the team. pippen/rodman did. rodman more specifically.
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:00 pm    Post subject:

Hey, SB. I was wondering what happened to you.

Anyway, Iíll withhold judgment on the defense issue until we see how the author rates some of the other guys. I donít really care much about the authorís numerical ratings anyway. The discussion is the interesting part.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:36 pm    Post subject:

Charles Barkley at #20

This is a good read. Like Yogi Berra a generation ago, Barkleyís clownish image makes a lot of people forget what he was really like as a player. Heís also a hard player to rate because, at least in the modern game, he was one of a kind. I cannot think of any modern player who truly compares to him. I agree with the authorís assessment of his defense. I can remember times when he just checked out on defense. Even when he tried, he just wasnít that good. But he was a formidable scorer and did a lot of other things well.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:15 pm    Post subject:

David Robinson at #15

Appropriately enough, I found the write up be sort of boring.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:52 am    Post subject:

Karl Malone at #13

Good writeup. It makes an interesting point about Malone's low release point and how this affected him in the playoffs.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:48 pm    Post subject:

Still mad this guy did Wilt like he did. Shameful.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:12 am    Post subject:

non-player zealot wrote:
Liger24Zero wrote:


I like both players equally and can admit theirs faults, but you seem to be extremely biased when it comes to Magic Johnson and how he's perceived from a basketball standpoint.


Yeah, ok. Your 28 post track record shows no evidence of that lest you are a repeat poster that I might be familiar with. If you are, let me know and maybe I can verify. Abesnt of that, it's gonna be awhile before you can make a tear roll down my cheek. Until then, all I know is that ligers are bred for their skills in magic just like Earvin was.


I find it funny that you couldn't counter my point but instead you went after the cliche "Oh, you gotta be a rejoined poster" just because I didn't have any posts as backup for evidence when it comes to Magic Johnson and how I perceive him as a Lakers fan.

The reason I said that you were biased about Magic Johnson, is because I've been a lurker on this site since 2009, maybe 2010 and I've seen how biased your views on Magic Johnson can be. Your first post after Johnson was revealed to be 10th on the list and your reaction on what was written about him as it pertains to his lack of defense, is all the information I needed to know that you're extremely biased when it comes to Magic Johnson.

If you think that I'm a rejoiner, why don't you go and ask the great mods of this forum if it's true or not.

Just so you know first hand before anyone else, this is my first account on this forum and I hope the mods have a way to prove this statement to be true, because I ain't taking this accusation laying down.

Have a good day.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:34 pm    Post subject:

[quote="SuperboyReformed"]
non-player zealot wrote:

the whole defense thing is always a red flag for me for someone trying to divert the conversation away from a gifted offensive player. it all centers around this idea that defense is unselfish and offense is selfish. there's a reason why one of the greatest defensive/rebounders (rodman) was also one of the worst nba level offensive players ever. it's a trade off.


No, it centers on the fact that the game is played on two sides of the floor. There can be a trade-off, sure. Rodman was a great defender when he wasn't cherry picking for rebounds, and he was a non-existent threat on offense. IT is a great scorer, but a total liability on the other side of the floor as we have now all witnessed first hand.

I'm not sure what the problem is here really? Some players are great on both ends of the floor and they're naturally going to be ranked higher than guys that are not by most people.
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