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Mike@LG
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:19 pm    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
adkindo wrote:
Trae Young had a terrible night....4 of 16 from the field (0 of 9 from 3) and 6 Turnovers.

Quote:
Jeff Borzello
ESPN Staff Writer

Trae Young is now 7-for-41 from 3-point range in his last four games. 0-for-9 tonight, his first game all season without a made 3-pointer.


Like I said about Trae Young and all the other "next Steph Curry's"

Change of Direction is what separates Steph from the pack. It's not just his ability to shoot from anywhere it's his ability to handle and change directions.

These college kids like Trae Young whom are straight line drivers with an over-reliance on step backs because they don't have the kind of Change of Direction and handle Curry does are why they fall short of those expectations.

Trae Young has his height and his lack of change of direction working against him, and it would be a bigger problem at the next level if he doesn't work on his handle more and have more go to moves than his step back and the ability to shoot from way out.

I think his percentages are extremely low against ranked teams as well but I don't know the stats specifically.

But what I'm seeing from Trae are the things that stand out as problems with the other "next Steph's" that have come down the pike. Maybe that slows the hype down a little and some of his flaws will get analyzed more.

But all these basketball analysis on the mainstream news rarely if ever talk about change of direction as a weakness. So I doubt it.


Trae changes directions.

Hell, he's 3 years ahead of Curry by age.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:20 pm    Post subject:

TheBlackMamba wrote:
44TheLogo wrote:
trae young's change of direction is comparable to curry's as a freshman in college. his crossover is sufficient and he has good enough handle.

here's curry from when he was half a year older than trae is now: https://youtu.be/gMqywdhOI0I


Where would you (and Mike/adkindo/other college b-ball followers) rank him in the previous draft class? Do you think the hype has substance, or he has a lot more to prove at the NBA level before deserving the Steph comparisons?


#1 to #3, depending on how much the physical tools deter you.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:33 pm    Post subject:

trae young vs 2017 draft?

probably #1.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:34 pm    Post subject:

wow
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:42 pm    Post subject:

i have perhaps a unique draft perspective though, in that in the draft, i'm hunting aggressively for a guard/wing initiator on offense who can use possessions at a high efficiency (i.e., USG% >30%, TS% > 60%). trae fits that profile. from the 2018 class, that also means players like MPJ, bagley III, sexton, and my most recent favorite shamorie ponds. lonzo is an excellent player, but that's not who he is. lonzo is an amplifier - i've previously made the analogy that lonzo is more draymond green than steph curry. without the steph curry an "amplification effect" only goes so far.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:56 pm    Post subject:

PHILosophize wrote:
wow


I'm assuming this is a response to where Trae Young would rank, but the dude is the entire offense for that team. Compare freshman year numbers if you'd like. It's ridiculous.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:59 pm    Post subject:

44TheLogo wrote:
trae young vs 2017 draft?

probably #1.


Who went #1 in this last draft. Ah yeah Markelle Fultz.

In the previous draft? Markelle still probably goes first but if we did a redraft, Donavan Mitchell goes first

TBH given Fultz performance in college last year, I'd think he'd still go first. He'd just be seen as a bigger version of what Trae does, and Young's height would be talked about more (like it is now).

The debate however wouldn't have been "Ball or Fox" it would be "Ball vs Young" and the Lakers still probably draft Ball.

The REAL interesting thing is what Boston does, because they had Tatum picked this year... but you gotta wonder, with Thomas' injury.. if they'd draft Trae Young instead.... and then if they draft Trae Young what would happen if they went out and got Kyrie :O

THAT would be an interesting draft

But in the redraft based on current performances, Mitchell likely goes 1st to Philly.


Trae Young currently is the 'do everything' on Oklahoma. Ridiculous amount of responsibility.

However as teams and coaches have figured out his game his performances have dropped off tremendously.

His 3 point percentage is staying at 38% but his field goal percentage as a whole has dropped to 42%. Something to watch out for.

We'll see if he turns the corner, but the slump he's in right now has as much to do with coaches knowing how to scheme for him as the deficiencies currently in his game and at the NBA level he'd only face worse.

One can say he could be ahead of Steph as a freshman, but Steph stayed at Davidson for 3 seasons and developed and matured his game further. Trae may just jump to the league after Freshman year.. and that can be a factor to him imo.

I'd like Trae to stay in college another season, but that's how I feel about a lot of kids coming out as Freshmen.

But we'll see how Trae adjusts to how he's being defended now, which will say a lot.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:08 pm    Post subject:

^I disagree.

Trae doesn't have Fultz height/length, but he's a far more dynamic perimeter shot creator and engineers the entire offense for his team. If I felt that Fultz was 65% to 75% of Washington's offense, Trae is 90%+.

It's not about just watching field goal percentages either. He's already seeing defensive coverages from multiple players, traps, and makes even higher degree of difficulty shots. I'm not sure if he's a #1 option in the NBA, but at least with NBA speed and spacing, things would open up for him.

Also. The dude has over 50% assist rate. He's basically last year's Westbrook but with Curry-like shooting at the NCAA level. Just ridiculous USG, ridiculous playmaking, ridiculous shotmaking.

It's even easy to expect him to just be a shooter, but he attacks the paint, and has a FTr of 47%. Like, outside of turnovers and bad defense, it's REALLY difficult to dispute him.

Steph didn't really have PG responsibilities until his Jr year. Frankly, it's been a long while since the NBA has had a 30/10PG, and Trae is right there.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:09 pm    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
44TheLogo wrote:
trae young vs 2017 draft?

probably #1.


Who went #1 in this last draft. Ah yeah Markelle Fultz.

In the previous draft? Markelle still probably goes first but if we did a redraft, Donavan Mitchell goes first

TBH given Fultz performance in college last year, I'd think he'd still go first. He'd just be seen as a bigger version of what Trae does, and Young's height would be talked about more (like it is now).

The debate however wouldn't have been "Ball or Fox" it would be "Ball vs Young" and the Lakers still probably draft Ball.

The REAL interesting thing is what Boston does, because they had Tatum picked this year... but you gotta wonder, with Thomas' injury.. if they'd draft Trae Young instead.... and then if they draft Trae Young what would happen if they went out and got Kyrie :O

THAT would be an interesting draft

But in the redraft based on current performances, Mitchell likely goes 1st to Philly.


Trae Young currently is the 'do everything' on Oklahoma. Ridiculous amount of responsibility.

However as teams and coaches have figured out his game his performances have dropped off tremendously.

His 3 point percentage is staying at 38% but his field goal percentage as a whole has dropped to 42%. Something to watch out for.

We'll see if he turns the corner, but the slump he's in right now has as much to do with coaches knowing how to scheme for him as the deficiencies currently in his game and at the NBA level he'd only face worse.

One can say he could be ahead of Steph as a freshman, but Steph stayed at Davidson for 3 seasons and developed and matured his game further. Trae may just jump to the league after Freshman year.. and that can be a factor to him imo.

I'd like Trae to stay in college another season, but that's how I feel about a lot of kids coming out as Freshmen.


just gonna drop a self promotional plug and say that i'm the only one i know who had donovan mitchell in the top 5 last year.

as for trae vs fultz, fultz' numbers were worse and his team was worse, so i think it would have been a hotly debated topic. that said, the fact that trae isn't being talked about as a top 3 pick right now for the 2018 draft is just evidence that there's a difference between the debate among informed fanatics and the national debate.

trae is a generational shooter, and he pairs that with an impressive ftr, a solid percent of attempts at the rim, and ast %. while boasting the highest usage rate in the nation, as a freshman.

it's impressive to say the least.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:12 pm    Post subject:

44TheLogo wrote:
MJST wrote:
44TheLogo wrote:
trae young vs 2017 draft?

probably #1.


Who went #1 in this last draft. Ah yeah Markelle Fultz.

In the previous draft? Markelle still probably goes first but if we did a redraft, Donavan Mitchell goes first

TBH given Fultz performance in college last year, I'd think he'd still go first. He'd just be seen as a bigger version of what Trae does, and Young's height would be talked about more (like it is now).

The debate however wouldn't have been "Ball or Fox" it would be "Ball vs Young" and the Lakers still probably draft Ball.

The REAL interesting thing is what Boston does, because they had Tatum picked this year... but you gotta wonder, with Thomas' injury.. if they'd draft Trae Young instead.... and then if they draft Trae Young what would happen if they went out and got Kyrie :O

THAT would be an interesting draft

But in the redraft based on current performances, Mitchell likely goes 1st to Philly.


Trae Young currently is the 'do everything' on Oklahoma. Ridiculous amount of responsibility.

However as teams and coaches have figured out his game his performances have dropped off tremendously.

His 3 point percentage is staying at 38% but his field goal percentage as a whole has dropped to 42%. Something to watch out for.

We'll see if he turns the corner, but the slump he's in right now has as much to do with coaches knowing how to scheme for him as the deficiencies currently in his game and at the NBA level he'd only face worse.

One can say he could be ahead of Steph as a freshman, but Steph stayed at Davidson for 3 seasons and developed and matured his game further. Trae may just jump to the league after Freshman year.. and that can be a factor to him imo.

I'd like Trae to stay in college another season, but that's how I feel about a lot of kids coming out as Freshmen.


just gonna drop a self promotional plug and say that i'm the only one i know who had donovan mitchell in the top 5 last year.

as for trae vs fultz, fultz' numbers were worse and his team was worse, so i think it would have been a hotly debated topic. that said, the fact that trae isn't being talked about as a top 3 pick right now for the 2018 draft is just evidence that there's a difference between the debate among informed fanatics and the national debate.

trae is a generational shooter, and he pairs that with an impressive ftr, a solid percent of attempts at the rim, and ast %. while boasting the highest usage rate in the nation, as a freshman.

it's impressive to say the least.

Where did you have Jayson Tatum?
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:20 pm    Post subject:

As to the Trae Young convo, I agree with all the points Mike and 44 bring up, though I'm still hesitant to put him ahead of Lonzo and Fultz just yet. Doncic is #1 for me in the past two drafts and then pre-yips Fultz, Lonzo, and Young are all right there at #2.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:21 pm    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
As to the Trae Young convo, I agree with all the points Mike and 44 bring up, though I'm still hesitant to put him ahead of Lonzo and Fultz just yet. Doncic is #1 for me in the past two drafts and then pre-yips Fultz, Lonzo, and Young are all right there at #2.


I agree with putting Doncic ahead of Trae as well.

That's just how strong the top of the upcoming draft class is.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:39 pm    Post subject:

I'd have Doncic and Ayton ahead of Young right now.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:43 pm    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
I'd have Doncic and Ayton ahead of Young right now.


Same, though I am concerned about Ayton's steal/block rates.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:45 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
MJST wrote:
I'd have Doncic and Ayton ahead of Young right now.


Same, though I am concerned about Ayton's steal/block rates.


That worries me too tbh.

it's one of those "yes he has chinks in his armor.. but look at that armor!" situations.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:45 pm    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
44TheLogo wrote:
MJST wrote:
44TheLogo wrote:
trae young vs 2017 draft?

probably #1.


Who went #1 in this last draft. Ah yeah Markelle Fultz.

In the previous draft? Markelle still probably goes first but if we did a redraft, Donavan Mitchell goes first

TBH given Fultz performance in college last year, I'd think he'd still go first. He'd just be seen as a bigger version of what Trae does, and Young's height would be talked about more (like it is now).

The debate however wouldn't have been "Ball or Fox" it would be "Ball vs Young" and the Lakers still probably draft Ball.

The REAL interesting thing is what Boston does, because they had Tatum picked this year... but you gotta wonder, with Thomas' injury.. if they'd draft Trae Young instead.... and then if they draft Trae Young what would happen if they went out and got Kyrie :O

THAT would be an interesting draft

But in the redraft based on current performances, Mitchell likely goes 1st to Philly.


Trae Young currently is the 'do everything' on Oklahoma. Ridiculous amount of responsibility.

However as teams and coaches have figured out his game his performances have dropped off tremendously.

His 3 point percentage is staying at 38% but his field goal percentage as a whole has dropped to 42%. Something to watch out for.

We'll see if he turns the corner, but the slump he's in right now has as much to do with coaches knowing how to scheme for him as the deficiencies currently in his game and at the NBA level he'd only face worse.

One can say he could be ahead of Steph as a freshman, but Steph stayed at Davidson for 3 seasons and developed and matured his game further. Trae may just jump to the league after Freshman year.. and that can be a factor to him imo.

I'd like Trae to stay in college another season, but that's how I feel about a lot of kids coming out as Freshmen.


just gonna drop a self promotional plug and say that i'm the only one i know who had donovan mitchell in the top 5 last year.

as for trae vs fultz, fultz' numbers were worse and his team was worse, so i think it would have been a hotly debated topic. that said, the fact that trae isn't being talked about as a top 3 pick right now for the 2018 draft is just evidence that there's a difference between the debate among informed fanatics and the national debate.

trae is a generational shooter, and he pairs that with an impressive ftr, a solid percent of attempts at the rim, and ast %. while boasting the highest usage rate in the nation, as a freshman.

it's impressive to say the least.

Where did you have Jayson Tatum?


6. which may still end up being accurate
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:45 pm    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
I'd have Doncic and Ayton ahead of Young right now.


doncic tier 1

ayton/young tier 2
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:57 pm    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
adkindo wrote:
Trae Young had a terrible night....4 of 16 from the field (0 of 9 from 3) and 6 Turnovers.

Quote:
Jeff Borzello
ESPN Staff Writer

Trae Young is now 7-for-41 from 3-point range in his last four games. 0-for-9 tonight, his first game all season without a made 3-pointer.


Like I said about Trae Young and all the other "next Steph Curry's"

Change of Direction is what separates Steph from the pack. It's not just his ability to shoot from anywhere it's his ability to handle and change directions.

These college kids like Trae Young whom are straight line drivers with an over-reliance on step backs because they don't have the kind of Change of Direction and handle Curry does are why they fall short of those expectations.

Trae Young has his height and his lack of change of direction working against him, and it would be a bigger problem at the next level if he doesn't work on his handle more and have more go to moves than his step back and the ability to shoot from way out.

I think his percentages are extremely low against ranked teams as well but I don't know the stats specifically.

But what I'm seeing from Trae are the things that stand out as problems with the other "next Steph's" that have come down the pike. Maybe that slows the hype down a little and some of his flaws will get analyzed more.

But all these basketball analysis on the mainstream news rarely if ever talk about change of direction as a weakness. So I doubt it.


And like I told you, I'm REALLY REALLY not a fan of Trae. I've thought he was severely overrated since day 1, but you underestimate him. You think Steph Curry had that change of direction as a freshman? TBH, he didn't have that change of direction coming into the L. It really didn't get to this level until AFTER his multiple ankle issues.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:07 pm    Post subject:

Luminous8 wrote:
MJST wrote:
adkindo wrote:
Trae Young had a terrible night....4 of 16 from the field (0 of 9 from 3) and 6 Turnovers.

Quote:
Jeff Borzello
ESPN Staff Writer

Trae Young is now 7-for-41 from 3-point range in his last four games. 0-for-9 tonight, his first game all season without a made 3-pointer.


Like I said about Trae Young and all the other "next Steph Curry's"

Change of Direction is what separates Steph from the pack. It's not just his ability to shoot from anywhere it's his ability to handle and change directions.

These college kids like Trae Young whom are straight line drivers with an over-reliance on step backs because they don't have the kind of Change of Direction and handle Curry does are why they fall short of those expectations.

Trae Young has his height and his lack of change of direction working against him, and it would be a bigger problem at the next level if he doesn't work on his handle more and have more go to moves than his step back and the ability to shoot from way out.

I think his percentages are extremely low against ranked teams as well but I don't know the stats specifically.

But what I'm seeing from Trae are the things that stand out as problems with the other "next Steph's" that have come down the pike. Maybe that slows the hype down a little and some of his flaws will get analyzed more.

But all these basketball analysis on the mainstream news rarely if ever talk about change of direction as a weakness. So I doubt it.


And like I told you, I'm REALLY REALLY not a fan of Trae. I've thought he was severely overrated since day 1, but you underestimate him. You think Steph Curry had that change of direction as a freshman? TBH, he didn't have that change of direction coming into the L. It really didn't get to this level until AFTER his multiple ankle issues.


Considering I watched Steph and his brother practicing on the other side of the court when they'd come to the Y in Charlotte when we were all in our high school years Steph was always working on his change of direction back then, so it was something he was always headed in the direction he headed in.

By contrast Seth was usually working on his shot.

It's kind of funny you think about these things years and years later and you see why Seth struggled with his lack of CoD and Steph excels with his and you can trace it back to little things like that
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:13 pm    Post subject:

I guess the real question is what is our most glaring need. Just the bench in general? So BPA? Just trying to get a feel for what the scouting dept should be focusing on.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:16 pm    Post subject:

I'd say center is the most glaring need right now, center and backup 3.

But I think we shouldn't decide on a center until we see Zubac and Bryant in action.

So bench 3 is more glaring atm.

Starting 2, Bench 3.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:06 pm    Post subject:

PHILosophize wrote:
Hmm

Jevon Carter or Chandler Hutchinson?


I cannot be unbias with this question, and I will say I am not surprised if someone without bias chose Hutchinson. That being said, I expect Hutchinson to be off the board by our pick....long wings/SF's are just super valuable in the modern NBA....there is just a premium on the position.

If I was trying to convince someone to take Carter over Hutchinson, I would focus on a few areas.

First, the competition that Hutchinson is performing against is moderate or low end mid major....the Mountain West has some talent, but it may not even be in the Top 10 college basketball conferences....in contrast Carter has competed in the deepest conference in the country, and a conference known for excellent guards in recent years. He is matched up against a guy with NBA level talent almost every night.

Next, I do not have faith in Hutchinson's shot. Until this year, he has been an extremely low volume 3 point shooter. He has doubled his attempts this season to 4 per game, but his % has slipped to below 35%. On top of that, he is a poor free throw shooter...in contrast Carter has attempted over 5 three pointers per game last season and this season, shooting 39% & 38% in those seasons. Carter is also an 88% free throw shooter.

Finally, I think Jevon is simply more of a competitor. He competes every play at a high level and takes his defense as personal as any player I have watched in college.

Obviously, I would go with Jevon Carter.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:38 pm    Post subject:

Where would Mo Bamba be selected in the 2017 draft?
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:43 pm    Post subject:

shamorie ponds with 26/10/5 tonight

playing his way out of our pick range

bamba in 2017 draft probably goes 4th after fultz ball tatum
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:46 pm    Post subject:

44TheLogo wrote:
shamorie ponds with 26/10/5 tonight

playing his way out of our pick range

bamba in 2017 draft probably goes 4th after fultz ball tatum


Is that in a re-draft? Or a year ago? Because at the time of the draft last year, Lonzo really came to be questioned... Tatum was an average 3pt shooter and with possible 3-4 tweener attributes... I think Bamba would have went 3rd at the latest at the time.
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