Joel Embiid marveled at Wilt Chamberlain's athleticism during the ASG - I put together a vid of what he was on about
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1since71
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:58 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
P.K. wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
^^^^

Okay, but this is the problem. The other poster did say 55" (or at least it was in an article he quoted), and you're talking about whether he could touch the top of the backboard. We've had other threads that discussed whether he could really pick quarters off the top of the backboard, whether he dunked free throws, and whether he killed a bobcat with his bare hands. If you believe all of that stuff, that's fine. But this makes it impossible to have a rational discussion about him as a player, especially when he gets compared to modern players.

55" is ridiculous, and I wouldn't believe it unless I saw it on a certified vertical jump machine
Willie "The Goat" Manigault claimed he could take a quarter off the top of the backboard too. He was 6' tall, and that would have required a vertical leap of something like 62"
that was ridiculous too
BTW: for years, Shaq had the highest vertical reach at 12'5" - until Dwight Howard broke it at 12'6"
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/923942-watch-dwight-howard-break-shaqs-vertical-reach-record-for-sports-science
that means both Shaq and Howard were within 6-7" of touching the top of the 13' tall backboard. Which is pretty freaking "near" too
The idea that Wilt would be able to get closer doesn't require a stretch of imagination at all


Again, this is the point. You are trying to prove to me that Wilt could touch the top of the backboard. We've even had discussions about Manigault in these threads before. Discussions about Wilt always go off on these tangents.

O

I agree let’s forget the stories and go off the available film.Whats your opinion? Could he play with today’s players in his prime? Would he embarrass today’s centers as Jerry West says? He does have a near impossible shot to stop with the fade away.He would be the biggest guy out there.He did have unique measurables.whats your opinion?
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dantheman9758
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:20 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
dantheman9758 wrote:
You know, there is a root to every Wilt story out there. Just because a few fans might not understand his vertical leap or have enough data to speak on one particular facet to his athleticism doesn't make it all impossible to talk about.

What do you wish to see some source articles from? Let's start small, pick one facet of his athleticism and I can provide root information. Not stories repeated 2nd and 3rd hand 25+ years after he played - I mean I can provide you the first hand accounts. I've done the research for a few years now I've got it organized. Anything you think is hogwash that you'd wish to be cleared up a bit more?


We've been through this before. You have marinated yourself in the BS for so long that it has become obsessive. I'm surprised you haven't made a highlight video for the bobcat that Wilt killed with his bare hands.

I've acquired a reputation for collecting film and documentation in the form of not just Wilt but his entire era, and other players who played either slightly before or after Wilt's era which before I started I considered the dark ages of the NBA due to nobody, including the NBA itself, digging deep into it so that younger generations can sort fact from fiction, decide if they think the players are cool or not, enjoy it and potentially expand on the players they already can enjoy. I pride myself in my collection of basketball history over the past few years both articles and video. Call it an obsession, I call it a fun hobby. I offered to share with you more direct bodies of testimony to things you might wonder about as I pay for news archive sites and have a lot of footage and interviews. If you want to write me off that's fine but I was just trying to help add clarity to something you were treating as impossible for you or any of us to know about due to what you point out as being too much differing or impossible sounding accounts being said by too many people.

I say, there's a source for most of these and usually the direct sources aren't so wild. Such as the free throw dunks for example, you're right for years nobody had that story exactly straight. But through news archives and an interview with Tex Winter we get a clear idea of how it all started. Heck before I started collecting footage younger generations of people with a very cynical attitude used to think Wilt was so massively overrated that he was not athletic or special at all in talent compared to modern players. That he was at his very best, just another Ewing or whatever other 7 footers had become run of the mill from the 90's onwards, minus the skill they'd say. Some even thought he was less than that due to seeing him look so skinny as a high school kid. I think it's great that we have news archives and more access to video. My offer still stands if there's any story nagging you that you'd prefer to know the source of.
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:02 am    Post subject:

1since71 wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
P.K. wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
^^^^

Okay, but this is the problem. The other poster did say 55" (or at least it was in an article he quoted), and you're talking about whether he could touch the top of the backboard. We've had other threads that discussed whether he could really pick quarters off the top of the backboard, whether he dunked free throws, and whether he killed a bobcat with his bare hands. If you believe all of that stuff, that's fine. But this makes it impossible to have a rational discussion about him as a player, especially when he gets compared to modern players.

55" is ridiculous, and I wouldn't believe it unless I saw it on a certified vertical jump machine
Willie "The Goat" Manigault claimed he could take a quarter off the top of the backboard too. He was 6' tall, and that would have required a vertical leap of something like 62"
that was ridiculous too
BTW: for years, Shaq had the highest vertical reach at 12'5" - until Dwight Howard broke it at 12'6"
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/923942-watch-dwight-howard-break-shaqs-vertical-reach-record-for-sports-science
that means both Shaq and Howard were within 6-7" of touching the top of the 13' tall backboard. Which is pretty freaking "near" too
The idea that Wilt would be able to get closer doesn't require a stretch of imagination at all


Again, this is the point. You are trying to prove to me that Wilt could touch the top of the backboard. We've even had discussions about Manigault in these threads before. Discussions about Wilt always go off on these tangents.

O

I agree let’s forget the stories and go off the available film.Whats your opinion? Could he play with today’s players in his prime? Would he embarrass today’s centers as Jerry West says? He does have a near impossible shot to stop with the fade away.He would be the biggest guy out there.He did have unique measurables.whats your opinion?


I'm sure he'd be a pretty good center today. I discount comments from the old timers like West and Kareem because old timers will always tell you how much better everything was in the old days. The same is true of the Wilt mob: some of these people will actually tell you that players were bigger and more talented in the sixties. (This is when they take a break from trying to convince themselves that Wilt could snatch quarters from the top of the backboard.)

For an objective assessment of Wilt's game, you can look at the analysis from the Thinking Basketball guy, which I linked earlier in this thread. He concludes that Wilt is an overrated offensive player, but an underrated defensive player. I expect that this is also an appropriate starting point to assessing how Wilt would function in the modern game. Modern defenses would handle Wilt simply by denying him the ball. You'd live with Wilt as a mid-range jump shooter, but you'd deny him the ball in the low post and then box him out. If he managed to get the ball down low, you'd try to exploit his penchant for turnovers. On the defensive end, Wilt would be hard to deal with, because the modern game puts a premium on rim protection. Wilt would block a lot of shots.

It's hard to say what kind of stats he would post. If you adjust for game pace and minutes played, his gaudy numbers from the early sixties become a lot less otherworldly. Kobe actually scored at a faster rate in '06 than Wilt ever did, even in his 50 point season. It would be hard for a center to score at that sort of rate in the modern game for the reasons I just stated. And of course, it is purely speculative how Wilt would adjust to the size and athleticism of modern players, as opposed to the opponents he faced in the sixties. All things considered, I could imagine a peak season in the ballpark of 30/15.
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:04 am    Post subject:

dantheman9758 wrote:
If you want to write me off that's fine


Good, because I do.
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1since71
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:22 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
1since71 wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
P.K. wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
^^^^

Okay, but this is the problem. The other poster did say 55" (or at least it was in an article he quoted), and you're talking about whether he could touch the top of the backboard. We've had other threads that discussed whether he could really pick quarters off the top of the backboard, whether he dunked free throws, and whether he killed a bobcat with his bare hands. If you believe all of that stuff, that's fine. But this makes it impossible to have a rational discussion about him as a player, especially when he gets compared to modern players.

55" is ridiculous, and I wouldn't believe it unless I saw it on a certified vertical jump machine
Willie "The Goat" Manigault claimed he could take a quarter off the top of the backboard too. He was 6' tall, and that would have required a vertical leap of something like 62"
that was ridiculous too
BTW: for years, Shaq had the highest vertical reach at 12'5" - until Dwight Howard broke it at 12'6"
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/923942-watch-dwight-howard-break-shaqs-vertical-reach-record-for-sports-science
that means both Shaq and Howard were within 6-7" of touching the top of the 13' tall backboard. Which is pretty freaking "near" too
The idea that Wilt would be able to get closer doesn't require a stretch of imagination at all


Again, this is the point. You are trying to prove to me that Wilt could touch the top of the backboard. We've even had discussions about Manigault in these threads before. Discussions about Wilt always go off on these tangents.

O

I agree let’s forget the stories and go off the available film.Whats your opinion? Could he play with today’s players in his prime? Would he embarrass today’s centers as Jerry West says? He does have a near impossible shot to stop with the fade away.He would be the biggest guy out there.He did have unique measurables.whats your opinion?


I'm sure he'd be a pretty good center today. I discount comments from the old timers like West and Kareem because old timers will always tell you how much better everything was in the old days. The same is true of the Wilt mob: some of these people will actually tell you that players were bigger and more talented in the sixties. (This is when they take a break from trying to convince themselves that Wilt could snatch quarters from the top of the backboard.)

For an objective assessment of Wilt's game, you can look at the analysis from the Thinking Basketball guy, which I linked earlier in this thread. He concludes that Wilt is an overrated offensive player, but an underrated defensive player. I expect that this is also an appropriate starting point to assessing how Wilt would function in the modern game. Modern defenses would handle Wilt simply by denying him the ball. You'd live with Wilt as a mid-range jump shooter, but you'd deny him the ball in the low post and then box him out. If he managed to get the ball down low, you'd try to exploit his penchant for turnovers. On the defensive end, Wilt would be hard to deal with, because the modern game puts a premium on rim protection. Wilt would block a lot of shots.

It's hard to say what kind of stats he would post. If you adjust for game pace and minutes played, his gaudy numbers from the early sixties become a lot less otherworldly. Kobe actually scored at a faster rate in '06 than Wilt ever did, even in his 50 point season. It would be hard for a center to score at that sort of rate in the modern game for the reasons I just stated. And of course, it is purely speculative how Wilt would adjust to the size and athleticism of modern players, as opposed to the opponents he faced in the sixties. All things considered, I could imagine a peak season in the ballpark of 30/15.

Thanks for your response.i can’t find it to disregard Jerry because he is very good at assessment of talent and doesn’t strike me as a man of hyperbole.You may be right about his defense being more impactful in today’s game.Im not so sure Wilt would get to 30ppg in today’s game although he may average more rebounds imo
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:32 pm    Post subject:

It is certainly possible, even likely, that Wilt could average more than 15 rebounds. However, if you take his peak average of 27, then adjust to modern game pace (130 to 100) and adjust to minutes played in the modern game (48 to 40), that number drops to 17. Could he do that in the modern game? Sure, I can buy that. I’m not so sure that he could hit that sort of number while scoring 30.
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MJST
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:26 pm    Post subject:

dantheman9758 wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
dantheman9758 wrote:
You know, there is a root to every Wilt story out there. Just because a few fans might not understand his vertical leap or have enough data to speak on one particular facet to his athleticism doesn't make it all impossible to talk about.

What do you wish to see some source articles from? Let's start small, pick one facet of his athleticism and I can provide root information. Not stories repeated 2nd and 3rd hand 25+ years after he played - I mean I can provide you the first hand accounts. I've done the research for a few years now I've got it organized. Anything you think is hogwash that you'd wish to be cleared up a bit more?


We've been through this before. You have marinated yourself in the BS for so long that it has become obsessive. I'm surprised you haven't made a highlight video for the bobcat that Wilt killed with his bare hands.

I've acquired a reputation for collecting film and documentation in the form of not just Wilt but his entire era, and other players who played either slightly before or after Wilt's era which before I started I considered the dark ages of the NBA due to nobody, including the NBA itself, digging deep into it so that younger generations can sort fact from fiction, decide if they think the players are cool or not, enjoy it and potentially expand on the players they already can enjoy. I pride myself in my collection of basketball history over the past few years both articles and video. Call it an obsession, I call it a fun hobby. I offered to share with you more direct bodies of testimony to things you might wonder about as I pay for news archive sites and have a lot of footage and interviews. If you want to write me off that's fine but I was just trying to help add clarity to something you were treating as impossible for you or any of us to know about due to what you point out as being too much differing or impossible sounding accounts being said by too many people.

I say, there's a source for most of these and usually the direct sources aren't so wild. Such as the free throw dunks for example, you're right for years nobody had that story exactly straight. But through news archives and an interview with Tex Winter we get a clear idea of how it all started. Heck before I started collecting footage younger generations of people with a very cynical attitude used to think Wilt was so massively overrated that he was not athletic or special at all in talent compared to modern players. That he was at his very best, just another Ewing or whatever other 7 footers had become run of the mill from the 90's onwards, minus the skill they'd say. Some even thought he was less than that due to seeing him look so skinny as a high school kid. I think it's great that we have news archives and more access to video. My offer still stands if there's any story nagging you that you'd prefer to know the source of.


Doubt he takes it.

You've put more into it than he has or ever will to come from a position of patronizing you.

Keep doing what you do. Some people just get mad when people put more research into something in order to form their opinion than where they're bringing theirs from. So they try to make that person feel bad for putting such time and effort into it in order to get the answers while they wouldn't/don't for theirs. They will talk the most [expletive] but when you offer to give them actual cited information and offer it to them, they deny because then they can't complain about it anymore.

The research you do is very appreciated. Keep doing you.
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1since71
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 2:20 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
It is certainly possible, even likely, that Wilt could average more than 15 rebounds. However, if you take his peak average of 27, then adjust to modern game pace (130 to 100) and adjust to minutes played in the modern game (48 to 40), that number drops to 17. Could he do that in the modern game? Sure, I can buy that. I’m not so sure that he could hit that sort of number while scoring 30.


Probably would depend on what his team needed.With today’s rules favoring the offense and with Wilt being allowed to dislodge his defenders he may reach the 30pt mark.A lot of moving parts on determining what would be best for his team that would really affect his numbers
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