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BynumForThree Star Player
Joined: 27 Feb 2016 Posts: 1254
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Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:52 am Post subject: |
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"Closer" is such a taking head trope. Keep moving the ball and look for the open shot instead of going into 90s-ISO mode ending on a contested jumpshot off the dribble. You don't hear about Leonard being a closer because Pop is going to run a play to set up an open shot or layup late-game. LeBron is more guilty of going one-on-one but at least he'll pass the ball to an open man instead if trying to be "the man." _________________ If Brandon Knight were to come out, I would take him number 1 in the draft. - Magic Johnson Mar 27, 2011
For all of you out there questioning Jimmer Fredette of BYU, he is the real deal. - Magic Johnson Mar 20, 2011 |
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ElginBaylor Franchise Player
Joined: 05 Nov 2005 Posts: 10775 Location: Hoosier Nation
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Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:56 am Post subject: |
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BynumForThree wrote: | "Closer" is such a taking head trope. Keep moving the ball and look for the open shot instead of going into 90s-ISO mode ending on a contested jumpshot off the dribble. You don't hear about Leonard being a closer because Pop is going to run a play to set up an open shot or layup late-game. LeBron is more guilty of going one-on-one but at least he'll pass the ball to an open man instead if trying to be "the man." |
Exactly. You don't need a "closer" per se, although the more options you have the better. _________________ Not a legend |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:58 am Post subject: |
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BynumForThree wrote: | "Closer" is such a taking head trope. Keep moving the ball and look for the open shot instead of going into 90s-ISO mode ending on a contested jumpshot off the dribble. You don't hear about Leonard being a closer because Pop is going to run a play to set up an open shot or layup late-game. LeBron is more guilty of going one-on-one but at least he'll pass the ball to an open man instead if trying to be "the man." |
We had 20 years of Kobe, so folks are sort of used to that. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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nutella Starting Rotation
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 597
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Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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yinoma2001 wrote: | BynumForThree wrote: | "Closer" is such a taking head trope. Keep moving the ball and look for the open shot instead of going into 90s-ISO mode ending on a contested jumpshot off the dribble. You don't hear about Leonard being a closer because Pop is going to run a play to set up an open shot or layup late-game. LeBron is more guilty of going one-on-one but at least he'll pass the ball to an open man instead if trying to be "the man." |
We had 20 years of Kobe, so folks are sort of used to that. |
That, and Lillard just a few days ago, and Aaron Gordon ... etc.
I do feel we need a "closer," not necessarily to ISO & take the last shot, but just that killer instinct, be ruthless in finding a way to score when the game's on the line. |
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noahp45 Star Player
Joined: 23 Apr 2006 Posts: 6572 Location: Oceanside Ca
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Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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Bi and JR will and Be that
PG and Klay are that |
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kikanga Retired Number
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 29333 Location: La La Land
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Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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No coincidence this thread was made once Ingram went down.
When I think of a closer, I think of halfcourt offense against a set defense. And Ingram is a closer in that sense.
He can get get to the line, get a decent shot, or play-make down the stretch. He's just a mediocre closer at the moment. He needs time.
And with certain matchups, the same goes for Randle. _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better” |
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The Juggernaut Star Player
Joined: 24 Aug 2017 Posts: 4572
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Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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We miss Ingram. He's such a steady rock for our offense especially late in games. It sucks he got hurt when him and the team were both playing at their best. |
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greenfrog Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jan 2011 Posts: 36081 Location: 502 Bad Gateway
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Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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So the SA game has been completely forgotten? |
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BynumForThree Star Player
Joined: 27 Feb 2016 Posts: 1254
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Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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yinoma2001 wrote: | BynumForThree wrote: | "Closer" is such a taking head trope. Keep moving the ball and look for the open shot instead of going into 90s-ISO mode ending on a contested jumpshot off the dribble. You don't hear about Leonard being a closer because Pop is going to run a play to set up an open shot or layup late-game. LeBron is more guilty of going one-on-one but at least he'll pass the ball to an open man instead if trying to be "the man." |
We had 20 years of Kobe, so folks are sort of used to that. |
And for the majority of Kobe's prime he was inefficient at that regardless of ESPN tries to pass off. He just took so many of them that people only remember the ones he did make. _________________ If Brandon Knight were to come out, I would take him number 1 in the draft. - Magic Johnson Mar 27, 2011
For all of you out there questioning Jimmer Fredette of BYU, he is the real deal. - Magic Johnson Mar 20, 2011 |
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greenfrog Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jan 2011 Posts: 36081 Location: 502 Bad Gateway
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Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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BynumForThree wrote: | yinoma2001 wrote: | BynumForThree wrote: | "Closer" is such a taking head trope. Keep moving the ball and look for the open shot instead of going into 90s-ISO mode ending on a contested jumpshot off the dribble. You don't hear about Leonard being a closer because Pop is going to run a play to set up an open shot or layup late-game. LeBron is more guilty of going one-on-one but at least he'll pass the ball to an open man instead if trying to be "the man." |
We had 20 years of Kobe, so folks are sort of used to that. |
And for the majority of Kobe's prime he was inefficient at that regardless of ESPN tries to pass off. He just took so many of them that people only remember the ones he did make. |
People love raw machismo. |
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Jellojigglin Star Player
Joined: 18 May 2001 Posts: 1548 Location: Venice, California
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Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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Isaiah is clearly the best final option with his free throw shooting. If he gets fouled it's a wrap. _________________ "Bobbin' and weavin' and let the good get even" |
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greenfrog Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jan 2011 Posts: 36081 Location: 502 Bad Gateway
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Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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Jellojigglin wrote: | Isaiah is clearly the best final option with his free throw shooting. If he gets fouled it's a wrap. |
LOL You missed a game, right? |
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Jellojigglin Star Player
Joined: 18 May 2001 Posts: 1548 Location: Venice, California
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Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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greenfrog wrote: | Jellojigglin wrote: | Isaiah is clearly the best final option with his free throw shooting. If he gets fouled it's a wrap. |
LOL You missed a game, right? | He does have the best FT shooting pct. Doesn’t really matter anymore because the Playiff ship sailed tonight. Go Lakers! |
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misterioso Starting Rotation
Joined: 14 Jan 2008 Posts: 616
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Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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BynumForThree wrote: | yinoma2001 wrote: | BynumForThree wrote: | "Closer" is such a taking head trope. Keep moving the ball and look for the open shot instead of going into 90s-ISO mode ending on a contested jumpshot off the dribble. You don't hear about Leonard being a closer because Pop is going to run a play to set up an open shot or layup late-game. LeBron is more guilty of going one-on-one but at least he'll pass the ball to an open man instead if trying to be "the man." |
We had 20 years of Kobe, so folks are sort of used to that. |
And for the majority of Kobe's prime he was inefficient at that regardless of ESPN tries to pass off. He just took so many of them that people only remember the ones he did make. |
IMO, closers could refer to 2 different types of performances. A closer is the guy who is the 4th quarter assassin, erasing deficits, and forging and extending leads. Or it could represent the guy who gets the rock in the last possesion of a 1 possession game.
Sticking with the 1st type of closer, I pulled some numbers from Basketball Reference which keeps shot information dating back to the 2000-2001 season. Here's a snapshot of player perforance for shots taken in the last 24 seconds of the 4th quarter or OT, to tie or take the lead, in regular season and playoff games:
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Player G FG FGA FG% FGX 3P 3PA 3P% 3PX Ast'd %Ast'd
Damian Lillard 55 23 65 35% 42 11 35 31% 24 8 35%
Carmelo Anthony 97 41 117 35% 76 11 44 25% 33 14 34%
Chris Paul 59 25 72 35% 47 2 15 13% 13 4 16%
Joe Johnson 91 39 117 33% 78 9 36 25% 27 8 21%
Tony Parker 37 15 45 33% 30 3 11 27% 8 5 33%
James Harden 40 15 47 32% 32 6 23 26% 17 6 40%
Kevin Durant 100 39 123 32% 84 16 59 27% 43 16 41%
Allen Iverson 47 17 54 31% 37 1 14 7% 13 3 18%
LeBron James 115 44 142 31% 98 9 52 17% 43 11 25%
Vince Carter 95 35 113 31% 78 21 55 38% 34 22 63%
Kobe Bryant 146 53 184 29% 131 18 78 23% 60 13 25%
Stephen Curry 39 14 49 29% 35 6 25 24% 19 4 29%
DeMar DeRozan 37 14 49 29% 35 0 10 0% 10 3 21%
Lou Williams 39 12 42 29% 30 7 26 27% 19 6 50%
Jamal Crawford 63 20 77 26% 57 11 43 26% 32 7 35%
Tracy McGrady 56 17 69 25% 52 2 17 12% 15 4 24%
Paul Pierce 111 31 127 24% 96 11 51 22% 40 12 39%
Steve Nash 61 18 74 24% 56 9 40 23% 31 8 44%
Russell Westbrook 78 22 98 22% 76 12 58 21% 46 7 32%
Isaiah Thomas 23 6 27 22% 21 1 11 9% 10 1 17%
Paul George 35 5 40 13% 35 2 25 8% 23 4 80%
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I left in a couple of HOF'ers as a comparison. To label Kobe as inefficient isn't exactly fair. Sure, he wasn't going to give the ball up in the last 24 seconds despite drawing double and triple teams, but the bottomline is that he tied the game or put his team into the lead 146 times in the closing moments. His percentages aren't exactly off the chart, but the numbers show that he was quite remarkable during the Pau-Kobe champion years.
Code: |
Player Season Tm G FG FGA FG% FGX 3P 3PA 3P% 3PX eFG% Ast'd %Ast'd
Kobe Bryant 2000-01 LAL 10 4 13 31% 9 1 6 17% 5 35% 1 25%
Kobe Bryant 2001-02 LAL 8 3 9 33% 6 0 0 0 33% 0 0%
Kobe Bryant 2002-03 LAL 13 4 17 24% 13 0 8 0% 8 24% 1 25%
Kobe Bryant 2003-04 LAL 11 6 18 33% 12 4 10 40% 6 44% 2 33%
Kobe Bryant 2004-05 LAL 8 2 8 25% 6 1 6 17% 5 31% 0 0%
Kobe Bryant 2005-06 LAL 15 5 21 24% 16 0 6 0% 6 24% 1 20%
Kobe Bryant 2006-07 LAL 11 5 16 31% 11 4 9 44% 5 44% 2 40%
Kobe Bryant 2007-08 LAL 7 2 8 25% 6 0 2 0% 2 25% 0 0%
Kobe Bryant 2008-09 LAL 10 3 11 27% 8 1 4 25% 3 32% 0 0%
Kobe Bryant 2009-10 LAL 12 7 14 50% 7 3 6 50% 3 61% 3 43%
Kobe Bryant 2010-11 LAL 7 4 9 44% 5 2 5 40% 3 56% 1 25%
Kobe Bryant 2011-12 LAL 14 3 18 17% 15 1 8 13% 7 19% 1 33%
Kobe Bryant 2012-13 LAL 8 3 9 33% 6 1 3 33% 2 39% 1 33%
Kobe Bryant 2014-15 LAL 9 2 10 20% 8 0 4 0% 4 20% 0 0%
Kobe Bryant 2015-16 LAL 3 0 3 0% 3 0 1 0% 1 0% 0
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The other thing missing from this chart is how many fouls Kobe drew and converted in the last 24 seconds. Kobe used to intimidate refs into blowing the whistle for him, so alot of those missed FGA's did not go to waste. Basketball Reference has this information, but it's a lot of work to get to crunch it down into usable data.
I'd also lay odds that Kobe's 4th quarter assists numbers aren't exactly bad either especially when he played with Shaq, but in the last half of his career, he wasn't giving up the rock in the last 24 seconds.
To me, it's not about efficiencies, it's more about getting a quality look and a good opportunity to win the game. A prime healthy Kobe gave the Lakers that and more. |
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LawyerShawn Star Player
Joined: 22 Jun 2005 Posts: 1834
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Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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See topic. _________________ Station where the act becomes the art of growing up. |
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ringfinger Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013 Posts: 29418
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Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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misterioso wrote: | I left in a couple of HOF'ers as a comparison. To label Kobe as inefficient isn't exactly fair. Sure, he wasn't going to give the ball up in the last 24 seconds despite drawing double and triple teams, but the bottomline is that he tied the game or put his team into the lead 146 times in the closing moments. His percentages aren't exactly off the chart, but the numbers show that he was quite remarkable during the Pau-Kobe champion years. |
Apologies if I’m misreading your data, but, didn’t you say you pulled data based on “shots taken in the last 24 seconds of the 4th quarter or OT, to tie or take the lead, in regular season and playoff games”?
If your data is based on shots taken, isn’t it 146 games in which Kobe TOOK a shot to tie or lead in the last 24 seconds, and not, 146 times where he MADE a shot to tie or lead?
Based on your data, it looks like he MADE a shot to tie or lead in final 24 secs, 53 times based on the FGM column. |
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Mike@LG Moderator
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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yinoma2001 wrote: | BynumForThree wrote: | "Closer" is such a taking head trope. Keep moving the ball and look for the open shot instead of going into 90s-ISO mode ending on a contested jumpshot off the dribble. You don't hear about Leonard being a closer because Pop is going to run a play to set up an open shot or layup late-game. LeBron is more guilty of going one-on-one but at least he'll pass the ball to an open man instead if trying to be "the man." |
We had 20 years of Kobe, so folks are sort of used to that. |
Name a championship team that didn't have at least 1 closer. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/
I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans. |
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ringfinger Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013 Posts: 29418
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Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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Mike@LG wrote: | yinoma2001 wrote: | BynumForThree wrote: | "Closer" is such a taking head trope. Keep moving the ball and look for the open shot instead of going into 90s-ISO mode ending on a contested jumpshot off the dribble. You don't hear about Leonard being a closer because Pop is going to run a play to set up an open shot or layup late-game. LeBron is more guilty of going one-on-one but at least he'll pass the ball to an open man instead if trying to be "the man." |
We had 20 years of Kobe, so folks are sort of used to that. |
Name a championship team that didn't have at least 1 closer. |
Yeah agreed. Every good team needs one. There are situstions, often late in games in particular, where you have to iso. Such as, when you are killing clock and still need to score. Or late shot clock situations, etc. |
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Mike@LG Moderator
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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ringfinger wrote: | Mike@LG wrote: | yinoma2001 wrote: | BynumForThree wrote: | "Closer" is such a taking head trope. Keep moving the ball and look for the open shot instead of going into 90s-ISO mode ending on a contested jumpshot off the dribble. You don't hear about Leonard being a closer because Pop is going to run a play to set up an open shot or layup late-game. LeBron is more guilty of going one-on-one but at least he'll pass the ball to an open man instead if trying to be "the man." |
We had 20 years of Kobe, so folks are sort of used to that. |
Name a championship team that didn't have at least 1 closer. |
Yeah agreed. Every good team needs one. There are situstions, often late in games in particular, where you have to iso. Such as, when you are killing clock and still need to score. Or late shot clock situations, etc. |
For me, it goes beyond that. Running a halfcourt set requires *clean* execution/decision-making. Sometimes guys get sped up and panic. Too often, I've seen role players, even solid NBA players make poor decisions, like Giannis or Anthony Davis not getting touches for multiple possessions late in the game. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/
I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans. |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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Mike@LG wrote: | yinoma2001 wrote: | BynumForThree wrote: | "Closer" is such a taking head trope. Keep moving the ball and look for the open shot instead of going into 90s-ISO mode ending on a contested jumpshot off the dribble. You don't hear about Leonard being a closer because Pop is going to run a play to set up an open shot or layup late-game. LeBron is more guilty of going one-on-one but at least he'll pass the ball to an open man instead if trying to be "the man." |
We had 20 years of Kobe, so folks are sort of used to that. |
Name a championship team that didn't have at least 1 closer. |
Well that’s my point. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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70sdude Star Player
Joined: 05 Feb 2009 Posts: 4567
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Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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It's a little early to know whether someone among the high potential young Lakers is a guy who can regularly get his own shot. There's Isaiah however ... |
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RashardA Star Player
Joined: 09 Aug 2004 Posts: 1378 Location: Santa Monica
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Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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No they don't.
His name is Kyle Kuzma. _________________ Everyting negative - pressure, challenges - is all an opportunity for me to rise.
-Kobe Bryant |
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Annihilator Star Player
Joined: 02 Jul 2001 Posts: 4035
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Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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LakerLogic wrote: | The Lebrons wrote: | Lol we're playing with 6 NBA players right now. |
Pretty much. Amazing how competitive we were. | _________________ “When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser.”
--Anonymous |
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Mike@LG Moderator
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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yinoma2001 wrote: | Mike@LG wrote: | yinoma2001 wrote: | BynumForThree wrote: | "Closer" is such a taking head trope. Keep moving the ball and look for the open shot instead of going into 90s-ISO mode ending on a contested jumpshot off the dribble. You don't hear about Leonard being a closer because Pop is going to run a play to set up an open shot or layup late-game. LeBron is more guilty of going one-on-one but at least he'll pass the ball to an open man instead if trying to be "the man." |
We had 20 years of Kobe, so folks are sort of used to that. |
Name a championship team that didn't have at least 1 closer. |
Well that’s my point. |
Yep. Emphasis. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/
I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans. |
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ringfinger Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013 Posts: 29418
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Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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Mike@LG wrote: | ringfinger wrote: | Mike@LG wrote: | yinoma2001 wrote: | BynumForThree wrote: | "Closer" is such a taking head trope. Keep moving the ball and look for the open shot instead of going into 90s-ISO mode ending on a contested jumpshot off the dribble. You don't hear about Leonard being a closer because Pop is going to run a play to set up an open shot or layup late-game. LeBron is more guilty of going one-on-one but at least he'll pass the ball to an open man instead if trying to be "the man." |
We had 20 years of Kobe, so folks are sort of used to that. |
Name a championship team that didn't have at least 1 closer. |
Yeah agreed. Every good team needs one. There are situstions, often late in games in particular, where you have to iso. Such as, when you are killing clock and still need to score. Or late shot clock situations, etc. |
For me, it goes beyond that. Running a halfcourt set requires *clean* execution/decision-making. Sometimes guys get sped up and panic. Too often, I've seen role players, even solid NBA players make poor decisions, like Giannis or Anthony Davis not getting touches for multiple possessions late in the game. |
Again, I agree. I just kept my comment in the context of late game, because the OP was bemoaning the concept of a closer.
But I agree. Even if you are the team that plays a run and gun style, you’re still operating out of the halfcourt more often than not. |
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