This Team Lacks A Closer/Go to Scorer
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BynumForThree
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:52 am    Post subject:

"Closer" is such a taking head trope. Keep moving the ball and look for the open shot instead of going into 90s-ISO mode ending on a contested jumpshot off the dribble. You don't hear about Leonard being a closer because Pop is going to run a play to set up an open shot or layup late-game. LeBron is more guilty of going one-on-one but at least he'll pass the ball to an open man instead if trying to be "the man."
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:56 am    Post subject:

BynumForThree wrote:
"Closer" is such a taking head trope. Keep moving the ball and look for the open shot instead of going into 90s-ISO mode ending on a contested jumpshot off the dribble. You don't hear about Leonard being a closer because Pop is going to run a play to set up an open shot or layup late-game. LeBron is more guilty of going one-on-one but at least he'll pass the ball to an open man instead if trying to be "the man."


Exactly. You don't need a "closer" per se, although the more options you have the better.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:58 am    Post subject:

BynumForThree wrote:
"Closer" is such a taking head trope. Keep moving the ball and look for the open shot instead of going into 90s-ISO mode ending on a contested jumpshot off the dribble. You don't hear about Leonard being a closer because Pop is going to run a play to set up an open shot or layup late-game. LeBron is more guilty of going one-on-one but at least he'll pass the ball to an open man instead if trying to be "the man."


We had 20 years of Kobe, so folks are sort of used to that.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:16 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
BynumForThree wrote:
"Closer" is such a taking head trope. Keep moving the ball and look for the open shot instead of going into 90s-ISO mode ending on a contested jumpshot off the dribble. You don't hear about Leonard being a closer because Pop is going to run a play to set up an open shot or layup late-game. LeBron is more guilty of going one-on-one but at least he'll pass the ball to an open man instead if trying to be "the man."


We had 20 years of Kobe, so folks are sort of used to that.


That, and Lillard just a few days ago, and Aaron Gordon ... etc.

I do feel we need a "closer," not necessarily to ISO & take the last shot, but just that killer instinct, be ruthless in finding a way to score when the game's on the line.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:33 pm    Post subject:

Bi and JR will and Be that

PG and Klay are that
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:39 pm    Post subject:

No coincidence this thread was made once Ingram went down.

When I think of a closer, I think of halfcourt offense against a set defense. And Ingram is a closer in that sense.
He can get get to the line, get a decent shot, or play-make down the stretch. He's just a mediocre closer at the moment. He needs time.
And with certain matchups, the same goes for Randle.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:05 pm    Post subject:

We miss Ingram. He's such a steady rock for our offense especially late in games. It sucks he got hurt when him and the team were both playing at their best.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:36 pm    Post subject:

So the SA game has been completely forgotten?
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:49 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
BynumForThree wrote:
"Closer" is such a taking head trope. Keep moving the ball and look for the open shot instead of going into 90s-ISO mode ending on a contested jumpshot off the dribble. You don't hear about Leonard being a closer because Pop is going to run a play to set up an open shot or layup late-game. LeBron is more guilty of going one-on-one but at least he'll pass the ball to an open man instead if trying to be "the man."


We had 20 years of Kobe, so folks are sort of used to that.

And for the majority of Kobe's prime he was inefficient at that regardless of ESPN tries to pass off. He just took so many of them that people only remember the ones he did make.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:24 pm    Post subject:

BynumForThree wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
BynumForThree wrote:
"Closer" is such a taking head trope. Keep moving the ball and look for the open shot instead of going into 90s-ISO mode ending on a contested jumpshot off the dribble. You don't hear about Leonard being a closer because Pop is going to run a play to set up an open shot or layup late-game. LeBron is more guilty of going one-on-one but at least he'll pass the ball to an open man instead if trying to be "the man."


We had 20 years of Kobe, so folks are sort of used to that.

And for the majority of Kobe's prime he was inefficient at that regardless of ESPN tries to pass off. He just took so many of them that people only remember the ones he did make.


People love raw machismo.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:45 pm    Post subject:

Isaiah is clearly the best final option with his free throw shooting. If he gets fouled it's a wrap.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:05 pm    Post subject:

Jellojigglin wrote:
Isaiah is clearly the best final option with his free throw shooting. If he gets fouled it's a wrap.

LOL You missed a game, right?
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:25 pm    Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:
Jellojigglin wrote:
Isaiah is clearly the best final option with his free throw shooting. If he gets fouled it's a wrap.

LOL You missed a game, right?
He does have the best FT shooting pct. Doesn’t really matter anymore because the Playiff ship sailed tonight. Go Lakers!
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:21 pm    Post subject:

BynumForThree wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
BynumForThree wrote:
"Closer" is such a taking head trope. Keep moving the ball and look for the open shot instead of going into 90s-ISO mode ending on a contested jumpshot off the dribble. You don't hear about Leonard being a closer because Pop is going to run a play to set up an open shot or layup late-game. LeBron is more guilty of going one-on-one but at least he'll pass the ball to an open man instead if trying to be "the man."


We had 20 years of Kobe, so folks are sort of used to that.

And for the majority of Kobe's prime he was inefficient at that regardless of ESPN tries to pass off. He just took so many of them that people only remember the ones he did make.


IMO, closers could refer to 2 different types of performances. A closer is the guy who is the 4th quarter assassin, erasing deficits, and forging and extending leads. Or it could represent the guy who gets the rock in the last possesion of a 1 possession game.

Sticking with the 1st type of closer, I pulled some numbers from Basketball Reference which keeps shot information dating back to the 2000-2001 season. Here's a snapshot of player perforance for shots taken in the last 24 seconds of the 4th quarter or OT, to tie or take the lead, in regular season and playoff games:

Code:

    Player         G  FG FGA FG% FGX 3P 3PA 3P% 3PX Ast'd %Ast'd
Damian Lillard     55 23  65 35%  42 11  35 31%  24   8   35%
Carmelo Anthony    97 41 117 35%  76 11  44 25%  33  14   34%
Chris Paul         59 25  72 35%  47  2  15 13%  13   4   16%
Joe Johnson        91 39 117 33%  78  9  36 25%  27   8   21%
Tony Parker        37 15  45 33%  30  3  11 27%   8   5   33%
James Harden       40 15  47 32%  32  6  23 26%  17   6   40%
Kevin Durant      100 39 123 32%  84 16  59 27%  43  16   41%
Allen Iverson      47 17  54 31%  37  1  14  7%  13   3   18%
LeBron James      115 44 142 31%  98  9  52 17%  43  11   25%
Vince Carter       95 35 113 31%  78 21  55 38%  34  22   63%
Kobe Bryant       146 53 184 29% 131 18  78 23%  60  13   25%
Stephen Curry      39 14  49 29%  35  6  25 24%  19   4   29%
DeMar DeRozan      37 14  49 29%  35  0  10  0%  10   3   21%
Lou Williams       39 12  42 29%  30  7  26 27%  19   6   50%
Jamal Crawford     63 20  77 26%  57 11  43 26%  32   7   35%
Tracy McGrady      56 17  69 25%  52  2  17 12%  15   4   24%
Paul Pierce       111 31 127 24%  96 11  51 22%  40  12   39%
Steve Nash         61 18  74 24%  56  9  40 23%  31   8   44%
Russell Westbrook  78 22  98 22%  76 12  58 21%  46   7   32%
Isaiah Thomas      23  6  27 22%  21  1  11  9%  10   1   17%
Paul George        35  5  40 13%  35  2  25  8%  23   4   80%



I left in a couple of HOF'ers as a comparison. To label Kobe as inefficient isn't exactly fair. Sure, he wasn't going to give the ball up in the last 24 seconds despite drawing double and triple teams, but the bottomline is that he tied the game or put his team into the lead 146 times in the closing moments. His percentages aren't exactly off the chart, but the numbers show that he was quite remarkable during the Pau-Kobe champion years.

Code:

Player      Season   Tm   G   FG   FGA  FG%  FGX  3P  3PA    3P%   3PX eFG%   Ast'd  %Ast'd
Kobe Bryant 2000-01  LAL  10   4   13   31%    9   1    6    17%    5   35%    1      25%
Kobe Bryant 2001-02  LAL   8   3    9   33%    6   0    0           0   33%    0       0%
Kobe Bryant 2002-03  LAL  13   4   17   24%   13   0    8     0%    8   24%    1      25%
Kobe Bryant 2003-04  LAL  11   6   18   33%   12   4   10    40%    6   44%    2      33%
Kobe Bryant 2004-05  LAL   8   2    8   25%    6   1    6    17%    5   31%    0       0%
Kobe Bryant 2005-06  LAL  15   5   21   24%   16   0    6     0%    6   24%    1      20%
Kobe Bryant 2006-07  LAL  11   5   16   31%   11   4    9    44%    5   44%    2      40%
Kobe Bryant 2007-08  LAL   7   2    8   25%    6   0    2     0%    2   25%    0       0%
Kobe Bryant 2008-09  LAL  10   3   11   27%    8   1    4    25%    3   32%    0       0%
Kobe Bryant 2009-10  LAL  12   7   14   50%    7   3    6    50%    3   61%    3      43%
Kobe Bryant 2010-11  LAL   7   4    9   44%    5   2    5    40%    3   56%    1      25%
Kobe Bryant 2011-12  LAL  14   3   18   17%   15   1    8    13%    7   19%    1      33%
Kobe Bryant 2012-13  LAL   8   3    9   33%    6   1    3    33%    2   39%    1      33%
Kobe Bryant 2014-15  LAL   9   2   10   20%    8   0    4     0%    4   20%    0       0%
Kobe Bryant 2015-16  LAL   3   0    3   0%     3   0    1     0%    1    0%    0     


The other thing missing from this chart is how many fouls Kobe drew and converted in the last 24 seconds. Kobe used to intimidate refs into blowing the whistle for him, so alot of those missed FGA's did not go to waste. Basketball Reference has this information, but it's a lot of work to get to crunch it down into usable data.

I'd also lay odds that Kobe's 4th quarter assists numbers aren't exactly bad either especially when he played with Shaq, but in the last half of his career, he wasn't giving up the rock in the last 24 seconds.

To me, it's not about efficiencies, it's more about getting a quality look and a good opportunity to win the game. A prime healthy Kobe gave the Lakers that and more.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:26 pm    Post subject:

See topic.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 2:21 pm    Post subject:

misterioso wrote:
I left in a couple of HOF'ers as a comparison. To label Kobe as inefficient isn't exactly fair. Sure, he wasn't going to give the ball up in the last 24 seconds despite drawing double and triple teams, but the bottomline is that he tied the game or put his team into the lead 146 times in the closing moments. His percentages aren't exactly off the chart, but the numbers show that he was quite remarkable during the Pau-Kobe champion years.


Apologies if I’m misreading your data, but, didn’t you say you pulled data based on “shots taken in the last 24 seconds of the 4th quarter or OT, to tie or take the lead, in regular season and playoff games”?

If your data is based on shots taken, isn’t it 146 games in which Kobe TOOK a shot to tie or lead in the last 24 seconds, and not, 146 times where he MADE a shot to tie or lead?

Based on your data, it looks like he MADE a shot to tie or lead in final 24 secs, 53 times based on the FGM column.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 4:15 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
BynumForThree wrote:
"Closer" is such a taking head trope. Keep moving the ball and look for the open shot instead of going into 90s-ISO mode ending on a contested jumpshot off the dribble. You don't hear about Leonard being a closer because Pop is going to run a play to set up an open shot or layup late-game. LeBron is more guilty of going one-on-one but at least he'll pass the ball to an open man instead if trying to be "the man."


We had 20 years of Kobe, so folks are sort of used to that.


Name a championship team that didn't have at least 1 closer.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 4:54 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
BynumForThree wrote:
"Closer" is such a taking head trope. Keep moving the ball and look for the open shot instead of going into 90s-ISO mode ending on a contested jumpshot off the dribble. You don't hear about Leonard being a closer because Pop is going to run a play to set up an open shot or layup late-game. LeBron is more guilty of going one-on-one but at least he'll pass the ball to an open man instead if trying to be "the man."


We had 20 years of Kobe, so folks are sort of used to that.


Name a championship team that didn't have at least 1 closer.


Yeah agreed. Every good team needs one. There are situstions, often late in games in particular, where you have to iso. Such as, when you are killing clock and still need to score. Or late shot clock situations, etc.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 4:59 pm    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
BynumForThree wrote:
"Closer" is such a taking head trope. Keep moving the ball and look for the open shot instead of going into 90s-ISO mode ending on a contested jumpshot off the dribble. You don't hear about Leonard being a closer because Pop is going to run a play to set up an open shot or layup late-game. LeBron is more guilty of going one-on-one but at least he'll pass the ball to an open man instead if trying to be "the man."


We had 20 years of Kobe, so folks are sort of used to that.


Name a championship team that didn't have at least 1 closer.


Yeah agreed. Every good team needs one. There are situstions, often late in games in particular, where you have to iso. Such as, when you are killing clock and still need to score. Or late shot clock situations, etc.


For me, it goes beyond that. Running a halfcourt set requires *clean* execution/decision-making. Sometimes guys get sped up and panic. Too often, I've seen role players, even solid NBA players make poor decisions, like Giannis or Anthony Davis not getting touches for multiple possessions late in the game.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:02 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
BynumForThree wrote:
"Closer" is such a taking head trope. Keep moving the ball and look for the open shot instead of going into 90s-ISO mode ending on a contested jumpshot off the dribble. You don't hear about Leonard being a closer because Pop is going to run a play to set up an open shot or layup late-game. LeBron is more guilty of going one-on-one but at least he'll pass the ball to an open man instead if trying to be "the man."


We had 20 years of Kobe, so folks are sort of used to that.


Name a championship team that didn't have at least 1 closer.

Well that’s my point.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:25 pm    Post subject:

It's a little early to know whether someone among the high potential young Lakers is a guy who can regularly get his own shot. There's Isaiah however ...
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:30 pm    Post subject:

No they don't.

His name is Kyle Kuzma.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 6:43 pm    Post subject:

LakerLogic wrote:
The Lebrons wrote:
Lol we're playing with 6 NBA players right now.


Pretty much. Amazing how competitive we were.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 7:52 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
BynumForThree wrote:
"Closer" is such a taking head trope. Keep moving the ball and look for the open shot instead of going into 90s-ISO mode ending on a contested jumpshot off the dribble. You don't hear about Leonard being a closer because Pop is going to run a play to set up an open shot or layup late-game. LeBron is more guilty of going one-on-one but at least he'll pass the ball to an open man instead if trying to be "the man."


We had 20 years of Kobe, so folks are sort of used to that.


Name a championship team that didn't have at least 1 closer.

Well that’s my point.


Yep. Emphasis.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 9:08 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
BynumForThree wrote:
"Closer" is such a taking head trope. Keep moving the ball and look for the open shot instead of going into 90s-ISO mode ending on a contested jumpshot off the dribble. You don't hear about Leonard being a closer because Pop is going to run a play to set up an open shot or layup late-game. LeBron is more guilty of going one-on-one but at least he'll pass the ball to an open man instead if trying to be "the man."


We had 20 years of Kobe, so folks are sort of used to that.


Name a championship team that didn't have at least 1 closer.


Yeah agreed. Every good team needs one. There are situstions, often late in games in particular, where you have to iso. Such as, when you are killing clock and still need to score. Or late shot clock situations, etc.


For me, it goes beyond that. Running a halfcourt set requires *clean* execution/decision-making. Sometimes guys get sped up and panic. Too often, I've seen role players, even solid NBA players make poor decisions, like Giannis or Anthony Davis not getting touches for multiple possessions late in the game.


Again, I agree. I just kept my comment in the context of late game, because the OP was bemoaning the concept of a closer.

But I agree. Even if you are the team that plays a run and gun style, you’re still operating out of the halfcourt more often than not.
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